The Official Israel-Gaza Thread

[NZA]

Trump suggested he wouldn’t withhold US aid to Jordan or countries such as Egypt and other Arab nations if they don’t agree to dramatically increase the number of people from Gaza they take in.

“I don’t have to threaten that. I do believe we’re above that,” Trump said. That contradicted the president’s previous suggestion holding back aid was a possibility.

In other words, the US wont cut off aid to either Jordan or Egypt . Without their full cooperation, there is zero chance this comes to fruition, regardless of what he says.

even with their full cooperation there will be no boots on the ground to force millions of people to leave.

 

[Outlaw]

How do you square your assertion that the current government of Israel went too far and is evil with your uncritical support for the Biden Administration who was crucial in enabling the evil Israeli government to go too far? Or is it that you think the Israeli government is only evil because they acted in ways that put Trump back in power, and their atrocities against the Palestinians is a moral non-issue compared to their machinations in American domestic politics?

I never had unconditional support for the Biden administration my position was that activist pressure should have been applied after the election. The uncommitted movement and those protestors that focused on branding Biden as genocide Joe and Kamala as “Killer Kamala” were useful pawns for Trump because all they did was damage Kamala’s campaign and now the Palestinians are facing a worse fate with Trump in charge.

In my view Israel’s current government is evil because they institutionalized an apartheid state, committed a genocide and enabled fascism to take over America.

The only way this makes sense is if you believe the only moral issue at play here is the election of Donald Trump, and not the active genocide of the Palestinians. Your moral schema is that badness or goodness is a function of relative proximity to Donald Trump. Only under that paradigm can leftists protesting the genocide be deemed bad, because they refused to prioritize the election of Kamala Harris over ending the genocide of the Palestinians. Which is how you can so easily flip on the underlying issue of the genocide; it's ok when Democrats support it, but it becomes evil as soon as Trump supports it. According to you, people shouldn't be protesting the issue, they should just be protesting Donald Trump.

My moral schema is that if the fascists took over America it would be the greatest threat humanity has ever faced. Protesting Gaza in 2024 will seem petty if the dominos fall a certain way with Trump is in charge.

That’s why I think the protestors that indirectly enabled Trumps victory did more harm to humanity than they realize even if their “heart” was in the right place.

They chose to fight a pyrrhic morally just battle which led to us all losing the war and those same morally just pawns are choosing to roll over when it’s time to battle with the fascist, just contemptible nearsighted actions all around.

 

[Pressure]

With all things Trump, it's best to see what happens instead of trying to guess what will happen or even worse, spin it into something it clearly isn't.

 

[wire28]

Unfortunately for the king, as we learned with Biden, the president of the US can force countries to do whatever he likes. With that understood, Trump is getting his hotels and jordan is getting some new residents.

 

[King Kreole]

I never had unconditional support for the Biden administration my position was that activist pressure should have been applied after the election. The uncommitted movement and those protestors that focused on branding Biden as genocide Joe and Kamala as “Killer Kamala” were useful pawns for Trump because all they did was damage Kamala’s campaign and now the Palestinians are facing a worse fate with Trump in charge.

What do you think of the argument that it was the Biden Administration and Harris campaign that were the useful pawns for Trump by refusing to break with their committed Zionism and driving the car off the cliff by losing the election? Do you think elected officials have any responsibility for committing to an immoral losing coalition/strategy or does the blame always reside with individual voters? Seems kind of like blaming the fans and not the players/coaches for a loss.

Protesting Gaza in 2024 will seem petty if the dominos fall a certain way with Trump is in charge.

That’s why I think the protestors that indirectly enabled Trumps victory did more harm to humanity than they realize even if their “heart” was in the right place.

They chose to fight a pyrrhic morally just battle which led to us all losing the war and those same morally just pawns are choosing to roll over when it’s time to battle with the fascist, just contemptible nearsighted actions all around.

I don't think I would much care to be a part of a future that condemns the people who protested a genocide more than the people who were charged with beating back the rise of American fascism and failed because they wouldn't stop supporting genocide. And somehow I doubt you would be making the same argument if the marginalized group being chosen to be sacrificed by the Democratic nominee was one you belonged to. If the Harris campaign made support for the Klan a central tenet of their campaign and lost the election because it cratered her black support, would you be in here chastising black people for not being willing to look past that? But we're expecting the Arab community and the people who view Palestinians as human beings to swallow it? At the core, isn't your position just "rules for thee but not for me"?

 

[88m3]

Unfortunately for the king, as we learned with Biden, the president of the US can force countries to do whatever he likes. With that understood, Trump is getting his hotels and jordan is getting some new residents.

I wish President Trump saw the benefit of migrants and new residents.

 

[Outlaw]

What do you think of the argument that it was the Biden Administration and Harris campaign that were the useful pawns for Trump by refusing to break with their committed Zionism and driving the car off the cliff by losing the election? Do you think elected officials have any responsibility for committing to an immoral losing coalition/strategy or does the blame always reside with individual voters? Seems kind of like blaming the fans and not the players/coaches for a loss.

Generally yes, but this election was different. The voters should be blamed because the voters should have been smart enough to know what is at stake. The voters should have also known that Trump would not make situation in Gaza better and more than likely things would be worse.

During elections, voters make the decision on who wins or loses so when you have a binary choice and voters decide to either be ignorant or apathetic then yes they should be blamed.

I don't think I would much care to be a part of a future that condemns the people who protested a genocide more than the people who were charged with beating back the rise of American fascism and failed because they wouldn't stop supporting genocide. And somehow I doubt you would be making the same argument if the marginalized group being chosen to be sacrificed by the Democratic nominee was one you belonged to. If the Harris campaign made support for the Klan a central tenet of their campaign and lost the election because it cratered her black support, would you be in here chastising black people for not being willing to look past that? But we're expecting the Arab community and the people who view Palestinians as human beings to swallow it? At the core, isn't your position just "rules for thee but not for me"?

Your hypothetical doesn’t work because Trump was not only saying Biden was soft on Gaza and not supporting Israel enough he said he would finish the job when he becomes President. He said nothing that would make the Arab community think he would be better for the Palestinians than Kamala.

Additionally Palestine is a foreign issue not a domestic issue. You aren’t making an apples to apples hypothetical so I don’t think it’s a fair to apply it to what actually happened.

 

[ADevilYouKhow]

Trump Issues Cease-Fire Ultimatum After Hamas Postpones Release of Israeli Hostages

Stalling the next release of hostages from the Gaza Strip, scheduled for the coming weekend, raises new challenges for the already tenuous six-week truce and chances for a lasting end to the war.

www.nytimes.com

It’s important to remember that Hamas isn’t only holding Israelis hostage.

 

[ADevilYouKhow]

Are they really going to build a space launch site in Gaza?

 

[voiture]

What I find funny is these Arab dictatorships and rulers thinking they have any leverage. Saudi Arabia wouldn't even be an independent country without the American bases. The Iranians would have swallowed them up by now. Wait till Iran gets the nukes and you'll see.
All these rulers are puppets who will bend to Trump because America gives them protection from their own people.

Trump is going to get his ethnic cleansing and there is nothing they can do about it.

 

[wire28]

Are they really going to build a space launch site in Gaza?

Being that the US apparently owns Gaza and the land has so much potential, the possibilities are endless with a business man like Mr Trump.

He doesn’t sound too confident that all the hostages will be released by Saturday at noon though (still no clarification as to whether this is eastern time or local) so the ceasefire ending would probably put a wrench in things.

 

[King Kreole]

Generally yes, but this election was different. The voters should be blamed because the voters should have been smart enough to know what is at stake. The voters should have also known that Trump would not make situation in Gaza better and more than likely things would be worse.

During elections, voters make the decision on who wins or loses so when you have a binary choice and voters decide to either be ignorant or apathetic then yes they should be blamed.

Assuming we're still talking about the Anti-Genocide voters, the Biden Administration and Harris campaign actually drove the stakes of this election way down by committing acts that were worse than anything Trump did in his first term. You cannot make a credible argument about stakes when you're actively aided and abetted a genocide. The voters really had little reason to believe that Trump continuing the genocide would be worse than Biden initiating and overseeing it. And so far, Trump's immoral and criminal demands for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza doesn't represent a markedly worse deviation from Biden's actions to enable Israel to commit genocide to the tune of hundreds of thousands of murdered Palestinians.

To me, the ignorant and apathetic voters were the ones who refused to critically assess the Harris campaign's blunders and demand she switch her gameplan during the election to present an alternative vision that wasn't only appealing to people already deep in the tank for Harris. But those voters were too busy crowing about how leftists and Palestinians were stupid to see their approach was driving the bus off the cliff.

Your hypothetical doesn’t work because Trump was not only saying Biden was soft on Gaza and not supporting Israel enough he said he would finish the job when he becomes President. He said nothing that would make the Arab community think he would be better for the Palestinians than Kamala.

My hypothetical isn't premised on Trump being better on Gaza, it's based on being given two terrible options. Trump is also explicitly courting white supremacists, so I'll ask again, if the Harris campaign decided to drop any policies designed to help the black community and also platform the Klan/Neonazi/White Supremacists in a bid to win over white racists, would you be chastising the black community if her numbers with black voters cratered? Because that's what you're doing to anti-Genocide and Arab voters. Chastising them for not coming out in droves to step over the bodies of Palestinian children and vote for someone who refuses to condemn the genocide of their people.

Additionally Palestine is a foreign issue not a domestic issue. You aren’t making an apples to apples hypothetical so I don’t think it’s a fair to apply it to what actually happened.

Do you believe foreign policy is not a legitimate electoral issue? Were all those anti-war voters motivated to support Kerry in '04 and Obama in '08 not voting on legitimate grounds?

 

[King Kreole]

What I find funny is these Arab dictatorships and rulers thinking they have any leverage. Saudi Arabia wouldn't even be an independent country without the American bases. The Iranians would have swallowed them up by now. Wait till Iran gets the nukes and you'll see.
All these rulers are puppets who will bend to Trump because America gives them protection from their own people.

Trump is going to get his ethnic cleansing and there is nothing they can do about it.

1973 oil crisis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Outlaw]

Assuming we're still talking about the Anti-Genocide voters, the Biden Administration and Harris campaign actually drove the stakes of this election way down by committing acts that were worse than anything Trump did in his first term. You cannot make a credible argument about stakes when you're actively aided and abetted a genocide. The voters really had little reason to believe that Trump continuing the genocide would be worse than Biden initiating and overseeing it. And so far, Trump's immoral and criminal demands for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza doesn't represent a markedly worse deviation from Biden's actions to enable Israel to commit genocide to the tune of hundreds of thousands of murdered Palestinians.

To me, the ignorant and apathetic voters were the ones who refused to critically assess the Harris campaign's blunders and demand she switch her gameplan during the election to present an alternative vision that wasn't only appealing to people already deep in the tank for Harris. But those voters were too busy crowing about how leftists and Palestinians were stupid to see their approach was driving the bus off the cliff.

Kind of dishonest to say Biden initiated a genocide. Who initiated the conflict last year? You can say Biden aided an ally that went too far in retribution but you can’t say he initiated the conflict.

We also can’t ignore the fact that Trump held up the ceasefire deal so in a way Trump was rewarded for playing political games with Palestinian lives.

My hypothetical isn't premised on Trump being better on Gaza, it's based on being given two terrible options. Trump is also explicitly courting white supremacists, so I'll ask again, if the Harris campaign decided to drop any policies designed to help the black community and also platform the Klan/Neonazi/White Supremacists in a bid to win over white racists, would you be chastising the black community if her numbers with black voters cratered? Because that's what you're doing to anti-Genocide and Arab voters. Chastising them for not coming out in droves to step over the bodies of Palestinian children and vote for someone who refuses to condemn the genocide of their people.

Well your what if would drastically change Kamala’s campaign, be more specific. How exactly would she be courting white supremacist in your hypothetical?

Do you believe foreign policy is not a legitimate electoral issue? Were all those anti-war voters motivated to support Kerry in '04 and Obama in '08 not voting on legitimate grounds?

It’s a legitimate electoral issue but as we can see Trump is much worse than Biden/Kamala on foreign policy

 

[Pressure]

I

Kind of dishonest to say Biden initiated a genocide. Who initiated the conflict last year? You can say Biden aided an ally that went too far in retribution but you can’t say he initiated the conflict.

We also can’t ignore the fact that Trump held up the ceasefire deal so in a way Trump was rewarded for playing political games with Palestinian lives.



Well your what if would drastically change Kamala’s campaign, be more specific. How exactly would she be courting white supremacist in your hypothetical?


It’s a legitimate electoral issue but as we can see Trump is much worse than Biden/Kamala on foreign policy

he's o-2.

He has Trump liberating black people wild wide and Trump liberating Gazans and holding Israel accountable.