mastermind

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Toussaint would’ve had a sound battle strategy while operating in tandem with diplomatic state craft leveraging his opponents against each other to achieve a favorable political settlement.

Compare that to whatever the fukk Hamas is doing. :mjlol:
Did Haiti achieve what his goal was?
 

Mister Terrific

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Did Haiti achieve what his goal was?
Yes and no. Was Haiti free from foreign rule? Yes. Was Haiti able to establish a functioning liberal government with peerage from one of the world powers to protect itself from France’s economic blockade that devastated the economy? No.

Toussaint was thinking long term. His fatal flaw was believing in French republicanism when Napoleon had already founded an authoritarian dictatorship. If he would’ve sided with the British or Americans Haiti is probably in a different state today.


What is Hamas long term strategic goal besides the destruction of Israel? I initially thought they had military and economic assurances from Iran and Qatar. That wasn’t true. So it’s just a suicide run?
 

The axe murderer

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Yes and no. Was Haiti free from foreign rule? Yes. Was Haiti able to establish a functioning liberal government with peerage from one of the world powers to protect itself from France’s economic blockade that devastated the economy? No.

Toussaint was thinking long term. His fatal flaw was believing in French republicanism when Napoleon had already founded an authoritarian dictatorship. If he would’ve sided with the British or Americans Haiti is probably in a different state today.


What is Hamas long term strategic goal besides the destruction of Israel? I initially thought they had military and economic assurances from Iran and Qatar. That wasn’t true. So it’s just a suicide run?
I don't fully agree with your posts here but I see where you are coming from
 

mastermind

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Toussaint was thinking long term. His fatal flaw was believing in French republicanism when Napoleon had already founded an authoritarian dictatorship. If he would’ve sided with the British or Americans Haiti is probably in a different state today.
His fatal flaw was he wanted to be French and ended up dying in a French prison for that desire to be French.

Siding with British and Americans was not gonna work, especially since the US was still practicing slavery and didn't want anyone to inspire their slaves while the Brits are the Brits.



My only point in this is Dessalines should probably be in your avatar.


What is Hamas long term strategic goal besides the destruction of Israel? I initially thought they had military and economic assurances from Iran and Qatar. That wasn’t true. So it’s just a suicide run?
No one is supporting Hamas. You lot keep bringing it up as if that's supposed to be the "gotcha" moment. fukk Hamas. A genocide against Palestinian people on top of the apartheid state since the Nakbah---remembrance day is today--- is what people are pissed over.
 

The axe murderer

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I’m asking people to think critically about the outcome of this conflict and what the realistic end goal is supposed to be.
I see what you mean but bruv that state assisted apartheid south africa with its nuclear program to do God knows what with especially when they engaged in war with Namibia. And they were adament supporters of south africa apartheid. I have no illusions that this will end badly. Not that one should give up but still :francis:
 
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Mister Terrific

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His fatal flaw was he wanted to be French and ended up dying in a French prison for that desire to be French.

Siding with British and Americans was not gonna work, especially since the US was still practicing slavery and didn't want anyone to inspire their slaves while the Brits are the Brits.

The Haitian revolution was inspired by French republicanism. You can’t fault him for aspiring to be that. He should’ve had his ear to the ground in France and realized French republicanism died when Napoleon assumed power

Siding with the Brit’s or America certainly was going to work. The British, Americans and French were literally all at war with each other. Toussaint expertly used this fact to get free trade rights with the British and American governments.


President John Adams was sympathetic to the Haitian cause as he was a staunch abolitionist and Toussaint sent white and mulatto diplomats to America because he knew it wouldn’t offend the racists in government.



My only point in this is Dessalines should probably be in your avatar.
He was a good military leader but his betrayal of Toussaint, massacre of all whites on the island (destroying any possibility of trade relations with world powers) and inability to establish any semblance of governance before being killed pretty much doomed Haiti from the start.



No one is supporting Hamas. You lot keep bringing it up as if that's supposed to be the "gotcha" moment. fukk Hamas. A genocide against Palestinian people on top of the apartheid state since the Nakbah---remembrance day is today--- is what people are pissed over.
You can be pissed but what’s the plan? Norman Finklestine told y’all(I don’t necessarily mean you) to cut that flag burning death to America and Israel chanting shyt out as it’s not playing positively to the liberals. You gotta eliminate these extremists who have no plans or strategy besides undirected rage out of you want to win.


Palestinians need a sovereign state. Maybe y’all don’t want it but you have to bite the bullet in a two state solution with full concessions for whatever takes. Maybe in 100 years you can move on Israel but you need that right now because I don’t think you understand how outgunned you are in that region of the world.
 
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mastermind

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Siding with the Brit’s or America certainly was going to work. The British, Americans and French were literally all at war with each other. Toussaint expertly used this fact to get free trade rights with the British and American governments.


President John Adams was sympathetic to the Haitian cause as he was a staunch abolitionist and Toussaint sent white and mulatto diplomats to America because he knew it wouldn’t offend the racists in government.
that's cool and all, but after Adams we continued with slavery until a civil war.

And Toussaint was a bougiouse French man.

He was a good military leader but his betrayal of Toussaint, massacre of all whites on the island (destroying any possibility of trade relations with world powers) and inability to establish any semblance of governance before being killed pretty much doomed Haiti from the start.
Why would he push for the murder of all whites in Haiti? Not saying its right, but understandable.

There was a lot of reason for not being able to establish governance. Being a young nation, France telling them run their shyt and the world agreeing with it, etc.

You can be pissed but what’s the plan? Norman Finklestine told y’all(I don’t necessarily mean you) to cut that flag burning death to America and Israel chanting shyt out as it’s not playing positively to the liberals. You gotta eliminate these extremists who have no plans or strategy besides undirected rage out of you want to win.
You keep saying that, when no one is saying we side with Hamas or support what they did on October 7. The real question is why is the US supporting genocide against Palestinian people after supporting over a half-century apartheid.

Palestinians need a sovereign state. Maybe y’all don’t want it but you have to bite the bullet in a two state solution with full concessions for whatever takes.
Again, you keep saying this, but Israel and US are on record now of not supporting a two-state solution. The US has constantly voted against it in the UN, and the nutjobs leading Israel obviously don't want that.
 

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Off topic...when the NY times forces you to use their login to access the Athletic and now you have to say goodbye to that sports site.....

:mjcry:

Ah well...still fukk the NY times....
 

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that's cool and all, but after Adams we continued with slavery until a civil war.

And Toussaint was a bougiouse French man.
So what? Again intelligence not emotions. Half of America was free and anti slavery. Toussaint was appealing to them. Also the bougiouse are the cornerstone of any functioning society. They are educated, politically connected and less prone to extremist and reactionary actions. Toussaint was educated and knew how to talk to white people of that era.



Why would he push for the murder of all whites in Haiti? Not saying its right, but understandable.

It was dumb. Served no purpose and weakened Haïti on the world stage. Could’ve used them as leverage against France at the very least.

There was a lot of reason for not being able to establish governance. Being a young nation, France telling them run their shyt and the world agreeing with it, etc.
France wouldn’t be able to tell them “run there shyt” if they had 5,000 French civilians in the island and trade alliances with Britain who were literally going to free all there slaves 4 years later.


You keep saying that, when no one is saying we side with Hamas or support what they did on October 7. The real question is why is the US supporting genocide against Palestinian people after supporting over a half-century apartheid.
The U.S. supports Israel because it’s a strategic ally in the region same reason the U.S. supported Azerbaijan ethnic cleansing of Armenians(that conveniently nobody cared about despite it being 10 times worse than Palestine) because Azerbaijan opposes Iran.


Again, you keep saying this, but Israel and US are on record now of not supporting a two-state solution. The US has constantly voted against it in the UN, and the nutjobs leading Israel obviously don't want that.
It’s easy for the U.S. and Israel to vote against a two state solution when Hamas is the governing body of a major part of that two state solution isn’t it? That said I give it 10-20 years. It’s inevitable. Who is going to oppose a two state solution when Biden and his era kick the bucket?
 

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Lmaooo, what I look like telling kids to stay in school when this is what passes for a Bachelors in History? :skip:
“Death to Israel, from the river to the sea, glory to our martyrs”


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mastermind

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Half of America was free and anti slavery. Toussaint was appealing to them. Also the bougiouse are the cornerstone of any functioning society.
and that half wasn't willing to do anything about it until the other half declared war.

Also the bougiouse are the cornerstone of any functioning society. They are educated, politically connected and less prone to extremist and reactionary actions.
We live in America. I don't think that's true at all. In fact the west, innit. :dead:

It was dumb. Served no purpose and weakened Haïti on the world stage. Could’ve used them as leverage against France at the very least.

France wouldn’t be able to tell them “run there shyt” if they had 5,000 French civilians in the island and trade alliances with Britain who were literally going to free all there slaves 4 years later.
Didn't agree with it, just understood it.

The U.S. supports Israel because it’s a strategic ally in the region same reason the U.S. supported Azerbaijan ethnic cleansing of Armenians(that conveniently nobody cared about despite it being 10 times worse than Palestine) because Azerbaijan opposes Iran.
And this is why the US always finds itself in bad situations and some how have to support the baddies.

and remember, this is the bourgeoisie of society making rational decisions like supporting genocide.

It’s easy for the U.S. and Israel to vote against a two state solution when Hamas is the governing body of a major part of that two state solution isn’t it? That said I give it 10-20 years. It’s inevitable. Who is going to oppose a two state solution when Biden and his era kick the bucket?
Hamas only became the governing body of Gaza in 2006, with Netanyahoo backing. There were many more years before that and Hamas isn't the governing body of all of Palestine.
 
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