Essential The Official Comic Book Discussion Thread [Support @Neuromancer’s book!]

[WhenWeWereKings]

Bruh, Apocalypse could give Thanos a good fight, he'd lose but it'd be decent. Think about it like this, he almost KILLED a young Thor with a single blow and has physically manhandled The Hulk.

BOTH Hulk and Thor give Thanos good fights alone and Apoc is at least at their level if not above it. Thanos is clearly above top tier, but Apoc is no less than a top tier if not 1 tier below Thanos.

Writers over the last decade and a half have really jobbed out Apocalypse. True, he's outclassed by Thanos but writers seem to have forgotten about his abilities and powers. Which are pretty much whatever he wants them to be. He should be a planetary threat whenever he shows up. Although I will say this much, I can't recall him being physically beat without some plot device used or PIS.

 

[TNC]

Writers over the last decade and a half have really jobbed out Apocalypse. True, he's outclassed by Thanos but writers seem to have forgotten about his abilities and powers. Which are pretty much whatever he wants them to be. He should be a planetary threat whenever he shows up. Although I will say this much, I can't recall him being physically beat without some plot device used or PIS.

I've heard a lot of people say this but I really can't account for many times in the 616 Continuity where Apocalypse was jobbed out.

If you want to talk AoA, House of M or other alternate reality stories, sure, but who doesn't get jobbed out in those? In the 616 proper, I agree I can't think of a single time he wasn't beaten without some plot device or PIS. X-Cutioner's song was PIS, Apocalypse actually WON in the Twelve storyline, The Chuck Austen storyline was PIS but nobody counts that because it was Chuck Austen but Apoc was never actually beaten himself. In Uncanny Avengers Thor had to forge a Godslaying Axe against his father's wished to temporarily defeat Apocalypse, I don't consider that jobbing. Outside of that, what else do we have? Because almost every other instance he's either plotting for the long term win or actually winning.

I really think its just another case of X-properties getting a lack of respect. X-Men heroes and villians get a lot of flack and disrespect from Marvel traditionalist because they break away from the norm. Cats used to say Iron Man could solo the X-Men. But if you compare Apocalypse's record to the field he's top 6.

 

[Birnin Zana]

I have always been curious about Black Panther though with that Fox/FF deal. For a really long time BP was basically a FF supporting character even more than he was considered an Avenger. So would Fox have a legit leg to stand on if they wanted to add their own version of BP to the FF movies?

The way fox is treating the FF, I pray that BP doesn't fall under that loophole. I want him as fair away from fox as possible.

 

[Red Shield]

Ehhh... I'd say Apoc is a top 6 villain in Marvel, period.

When you look at the Marvel Universe as a whole, only a handful of villians have actually won shyt or done something, and few play bigger than Apocalypse. I been talking this with friends for years, but when you look at all the Marvel villians that want to take over the planet/galaxy/universe, only 6 have actually done it...

1. Thanos
2. Doom
3. Magneto
4. Apocalypse
5. Ultron
6. Kang

And only Thanos and Doom have done the shyt in the 616 proper, but the rest have ALL taken over in alternatre realities, alternate timelines, or carved out their own lil plot of land. And when you compare Apocalypse's straight track record against his main villians the X-Men, to what Ultron or Kang have done to the Avengers, he typically comes out ahead of them.

If Apoc is a jobber, what the fukk are Norman Osborne, Loki, or Leader?

Never said he wasn't in the top 10 of Marvel villains

And I said his jobber status at this point. Back in 2000, I wouldn't say he was jobber status.

Norman Osborne I wouldn't say is jobber status, yeah he loses... but only after he tears shyt up
Loki has been real weird these past few years with him becoming a woman, kid, and then hipster

Of course the leader is a jobber. Wait hold on.... that implies that he was suppose to be a threat. His ass ain't

 

[Red Shield]

Writers over the last decade and a half have really jobbed out Apocalypse. True, he's outclassed by Thanos but writers seem to have forgotten about his abilities and powers. Which are pretty much whatever he wants them to be. He should be a planetary threat whenever he shows up. Although I will say this much, I can't recall him being physically beat without some plot device used or PIS.

Whenever he shows up they usually just use super strength, size change, and his shape shifting powers.

 

[TNC]

Never said he wasn't in the top 10 of Marvel villains

And I said his jobber status at this point. Back in 2000, I wouldn't say he was jobber status.

Norman Osborne I wouldn't say is jobber status, yeah he loses... but only after he tears shyt up
Loki has been real weird these past few years with him becoming a woman, kid, and then hipster

Of course the leader is a jobber. Wait hold on.... that implies that he was suppose to be a threat. His ass ain't

1. I Disagree that a top ten of Marvel villians would contain jobbers, I think you could list over 50 villians and not get to the jobbers.


2. When and where has Apocalypse actually jobbed in 616? If you are going off of elseworlds or alternate realities, you might as well count everyone as jobbers because even fanfics could count then. If you focus on the main continuity, I don't see where you are going to find this large number of losses.


3. The only really bad showing I can think of about him was the Chuck Austen run that has almost wholly been retconned or forgotten. Is that the only case you have?


4. Apocalypse has an amazing track record in straight fights, how many instances do you have where he has outright lost in a 1v1?

 

[Mr. Negative]

1. I Disagree that a top ten of Marvel villians would contain jobbers, I think you could list over 50 villians and not get to the jobbers.


2. When and where has Apocalypse actually jobbed in 616? If you are going off of elseworlds or alternate realities, you might as well count everyone as jobbers because even fanfics could count then. If you focus on the main continuity, I don't see where you are going to find this large number of losses.


3. The only really bad showing I can think of about him was the Chuck Austen run that has almost wholly been retconned or forgotten. Is that the only case you have?


4. Apocalypse has an amazing track record in straight fights, how many instances do you have where he has outright lost in a 1v1?

I'm pretty sure there's a KMC respect thread floating around. Easy way to settle all this is to post some scans and feats.


I'd do it myself, but I'm still at work.

 

[ORDER_66]

Didn't wolverine beat him in that savage land story 1 on 1?!?!

 

[TNC]

I'm pretty sure there's a KMC respect thread floating around. Easy way to settle all this is to post some scans and feats.


I'd do it myself, but I'm still at work.

I'm a comic forum vet of like 15 years, I'm fully aware of how many respect threads and feats Apoc has, but common perception tends to hold more immediate value than actual facts and track record for most things. The idea that Apoc is a "jobber" has been a long seated myth for a long time, I've had this debate numerous times. To me, it comes down to 2 trains of thought no matter the character, either 1. They have one or several showings where they under perform and they take that as a definitive showing or 2. Its not a specific issue, but the character has just never outright impressed them. With Apoc, it's always #2 because he doesn't really have any in continuity majorly bad showing. We have so many uber powerful mysterious plotting villians that he can get lost in the shuffle.


Feat wise Apoc is above top tier, but I'm curious as to anyone who would hate on him as far as this forum goes and why....

 

[TNC]

Didn't wolverine beat him in that savage land story 1 on 1?!?!

No.

It was this guy: Apocalypse robot (Wolverine foe)

 

[Mr. Negative]

I'm a comic forum vet of like 15 years, I'm fully aware of how many respect threads and feats Apoc has, but common perception tends to hold more immediate value than actual facts and track record for most things. The idea that Apoc is a "jobber" has been a long seated myth for a long time, I've had this debate numerous times. To me, it comes down to 2 trains of thought no matter the character, either 1. They have one or several showings where they under perform and they take that as a definitive showing or 2. Its not a specific issue, but the character has just never outright impressed them. With Apoc, it's always #2 because he doesn't really have any in continuity majorly bad showing. We have so many uber powerful mysterious plotting villians that he can get lost in the shuffle.


Feat wise Apoc is above top tier, but I'm curious as to anyone who would hate on him as far as this forum goes and why....

I aint mean to insult you, breh. I know who you are. I was saying you could post stuff for the benefit of folks who only see him wake up every so often and lose to Cable or someone right after.

The general consensus with Apocalypse is that he's an implied threat. Sure, he has feats, but minions like Sinister and Ozymandias are far more seen. Archangel as Apocalypse and The Apocalypse Twins have been seen more in the minds of recent fans.

The only place a lot of people actually know him from are the cartoon and the video game.

Cause yeah.

Comic book wise, folks really only know him for losing to Cable and choking out The Hulk. Outside of that.......

 

[TNC]

I aint mean to insult you, breh. I know who you are. I was saying you could post stuff for the benefit of folks who only see him wake up every so often and lose to Cable or someone right after.

The general consensus with Apocalypse is that he's an implied threat. Sure, he has feats, but minions like Sinister and Ozymandias are far more seen. Archangel as Apocalypse and The Apocalypse Twins have been seen more in the minds of recent fans.

The only place a lot of people actually know him from are the cartoon and the video game.

Cause yeah.

Comic book wise, folks really only know him for losing to Cable and choking out The Hulk. Outside of that.......

Bruh I'm not mad or even claiming you coming at me my bad breh, I guess its more just the repetition of the issue I've had over the years. You show countless numbers of scans, cite feats and issue numbers, give comparison points... and people change for a bit and then go back to believe the misinformation again and again. What I've found to have greater success is to pinpoint the particular issue wit the character and address it from that angle. I definitely understand current showings tend to hold more weight and relevance to a character's current status than older showings but especially with Apoc, I don't see how his current showings are a negative...

 

[JackM]

If you gonna rank Marvel villains, do it by their works. Dr. Doom just re wrote reality. He should b number 1. Doc Ock should be 2, cuz dude killed Spider Man and took over his body. How many villains have killed their arch enemy n screwed up they life like Ock did?

 

[TNC]

If you gonna rank Marvel villains, do it by their works. Dr. Doom just re wrote reality. He should b number 1. Doc Ock should be 2, cuz dude killed Spider Man and took over his body. How many villains have killed their arch enemy n screwed up they life like Ock did?

Doc Ock made his life BETTER. He actually left Peter with something to build upon professionally, something he never would have been able to do himself.

That said, messing and defeating Spider-Man is a lot easier than say.... conquering the planet or rewriting time. It wasn't my intention to make hard criteria of the GOAT villains, but I'm not against doing it either. We really want to compare how many lives Apoc has fukked up for his own amusement?

 

[MenacingMonk]

Comic owner hooked me up with that Batman Day comic early.