The Official Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice Movie Thread

[klutch2381]

Generally and subconsciously the problem that most people have with the "Martha" thing is something that Pixar mentioned in their 22 rules of storytelling.


#19: Coincidences to get characters into trouble are great; coincidences to get them out of it are cheating.


Personally, I don't actually have a problem with it, per se. The one surefire way to get to Batman would be his parents. Nobody understands the loss of a parent or the potential loss of one more than Bruce Wayne. What I DO have a problem is with is how it plays on film. It comes across as pure coincidence and not something with real gravitas, something wholly compelling, something akin to fate. Coincidence that benefits the protagonist by itself in a story is unsettling and jarring to the audience. Most people aren't going to be on some shyt, but more so . A better director would have made it a more palatable scene, but as I've said 251345545 times Zack Snyder is not a talented director in that sense. Maybe in those dream sequences he's awoken and startled at the end of each of them by the voice of his father saying Martha; he has a scene where he's tells Alfred that he's having recurring dreams about him mother of some sort, just a quick mention. He's shown having an emotional reaction to the name Martha. For example, maybe he notices that little girl he saves in beginning has on a necklace or bracelet that says Martha, and reacts solemnly. Basically, that scene really needed to be built up to from the onset of the movie and throughout the entirety pf the movie. You can't have the opening with his father saying Martha and the scene at the mausoleum and be like, "Well, job is done here ."

It's lazy and purely coincidence and that's status.

On another note:

#1: You admire a character for trying more than for their successes.

#13: Give your characters opinions. Passive/malleable might seem likable to you as you write, but it’s poison to the audience.

^^^^^^ Key issues with this portrayal of Superman as I've layed out in some posts on here. Such that, I don't even know who Cavill is supposed to be actually playing like I've said.

 

[peppe]

I went back with my girl because I needed a second viewing. After all the comments and some new info on the dream sequence it did make more sense to ME but my girl was looking at me like at some of the scenes.

First thing that caught me of guard was she asked me why did superman die? They can't kill him if the want to make a JL movie

I'm like what do you know about JL?? She is like they talk about it all the time in the big bang theory that's how I know about it.

I'm like

Anyway she didn't understand the dream sequence until I explained it, she when lois trew the spear in the water. And she when batman was hiding like a bytch when WW and SM where fighting doomsday.

She was also about the whole senate mess when they blamed SM for killing people. She looked at me since when does SM kill people with guns?

Either way what is done is done there is still suicide squad

 

[LinusCaldwell]

 

[chico25]

Yep.
You can tell Age of Ultron did that first though. With the saving people on the train bit by Quicksilver, etc. They were like don't lump us with that


but yea that was set to have heavy damage and not catch flack for killing people. I enjoyed it, but that sort of lowered my grade for the movie.

When Superman threw Doomsday and destroyed shyt and I was like no Zack

That actually goes back to the first Avengers movie for Marvel. The team always prioritized saving civilians while fighting before MOS came out. You could argue it goes back to Ironman 1 but that would be reaching.

 

[chico25]

Only if you look at the surface breh.


I don't recall you being in the back and forth's too much so I'll just rehash quickly why it played out the way it did.

First lets deal with the reaction in itself:

Imagine if you had someone close to you murdered and you seen how it went down.. You've been dealing with the pain of that person murdered for years especially recently. You just had a dream where you visited this person's grave and it turned it to a damn nightmare.

Somebody yells out that name to you. Especially a name that's not really what you hear everyday..

It would kinda throw you off right

Then somebody else comes running saying thats his....etc. The coincidence being that the person has the same relation to you. Again, the reaction would be....

As far as his motivations and feelings after that.
I'm just going to post whats already been discussed. Even was on IMDB.

​

I get all of this it just makes Bruce's motivation seem flimsy at best. Superman having humanity and people he cares about doesn't make him any less dangerous. Human beings do terrible things all the time something Batman would know well and was highlighted by him asking how many good men stayed that way. The fact is Superman was still someone with the power to destroy the world anytime he chose to do it. After being shown/dreaming that he did because his loved one died finding out he has a mother with the same name as yours shouldn't matter. It all boils down to my original point.

Ending a mission you've been working on for 18 months to kill someone because it turns out your target's mother has the same name as yours is stupid. It points to the fact that you set out on this mission with no worthwhile info on your target to justify killing him in the first place.

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

I get all of this it just makes Bruce's motivation seem flimsy at best. Superman having humanity and people he cares about doesn't make him any less dangerous. Human beings do terrible things all the time something Batman would know well and was highlighted by him asking how many good men stayed that way. The fact is Superman was still someone with the power to destroy the world anytime he chose to do it. After being shown/dreaming that he did because his loved one died finding out he has a mother with the same name as yours shouldn't matter. It all boils down to my original point.

Ending a mission you've been working on for 18 months to kill someone because it turns out your target's mother has the same name as yours is stupid. It points to the fact that you set out on this mission with no worthwhile info on your target to justify killing him in the first place.[/QUOTE]

No one (outside of Lex and Lois) knew who Superman was. So how is that applicable to Batman when he just sees him as an alien monster. Thats it.

Also its overlooking the fact that Batman was indeed....in the wrong. The attack on Metroplis made Bruce take a turn for the worst. Alfred already was on him about doing not so Batman like things. The vision/flash sequence he took as talking about Superman...instead of really talking about Darkseid. He misinterpreted it.

Batman didn't just stop threatening/trying to kill because he yelled out Martha. The yelling of that name threw him off his game. It wasn't until Lois came in to say his mother's been kidnapped and Lex has orchestrated this/behind the Capitol Hill explosion did he finally ease up. He's played Batman as well. His attention shifts toward saving the mom and also stopping Lex.

 

[chico25]

No one (outside of Lex) knew who Superman was. So how is that applicable to Batman when he just sees him as an alien monster. Thats it.

Also its overlooking the fact that Batman was indeed....in the wrong. Alfred already was on him about doing not so Batman like things. The vision/flash sequence he took as talking about Superman...instead of really talking about Darkseid. His misinterpreted it.

Batman didn't just stop threatening/trying to kill because he yelled out Martha. The yelling of that name threw him off his game. It wasn't until Lois came in to say his mother's been kidnapped and Lex has orchestrated this/behind the Capitol Hill explosion. He's played Batman as well. His attention shifts toward saving the mom and also stopping Lex.

The fact that that's all he knew and the monster part was unconfirmed means he should have learned more before deciding he 100% had to kill him. If Lex was able to learn his true identity then "the world's greatest detective" should have been able to figure it out. When Zod came down in MOS he announced that Superman had been hiding on earth for decades without incident, the idea that he had friends/family/a life before that event didn't occur to Bruce at all? I could buy Bruce wanting to be prepared just incase and even taking him out because of how great a risk he is but if he's going that far I need a better reason for why he stops.

Bruce knew Lex was neck deep in some shyt because of the human trafficking that lead back to him and all the excess stuff on the server he hacked. He chose to ignore that to focus on Superman which makes it worse. Superman chose to ignore Lex's goons to focus on Batman for no reason as well. The movie was a mess.

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

The fact that that's all he knew and the monster part was unconfirmed means he should have learned more before deciding he 100% had to kill him. If Lex was able to learn his true identity then "the world's greatest detective" should have been able to figure it out. When Zod came down in MOS he announced that Superman had been hiding on earth for decades without incident, the idea that he had friends/family/a life before that event didn't occur to Bruce at all? I could buy Bruce wanting to be prepared just incase and even taking him out because of how great a risk he is but if he's going that far I need a better reason for why he stops.

Batman was only searching for the Kryptonite as something of a defense for Superman. The trailers made it seem like Batman/Superman would be having this conflict the entire movie.

When really it didn't occur to much later on that yes he was trying to kill him.

It wasn't until the dream/vision that he outright told Alfred they have to destroy him. Once the Capitol Hill exploded thats when stole the Kryptonite to go and kill him.

In World's Finest Bruce didn't figure out who Superman was until Superman figured out who Bruce was. They had a physical confrontation first and then he placed a tracker on him. In the movie he was legit surprised/shocked to see him up close.

Batman spends most of the time searching for a possible Alien weapon to hurt him/have defense for him. As I've said before this wasn't OG Batman as @O.T.I.S. ...this is lost hope, one track minded Batman who on a mission to kill a God.

Once he finally saw the "God" as just another man his mindset shifts towards Lex who is the real villain. Not the God.

But if it just didn't work for you....thats fine.

 

[AnonymityX1000]

The fact that that's all he knew and the monster part was unconfirmed means he should have learned more before deciding he 100% had to kill him. If Lex was able to learn his true identity then "the world's greatest detective" should have been able to figure it out. When Zod came down in MOS he announced that Superman had been hiding on earth for decades without incident, the idea that he had friends/family/a life before that event didn't occur to Bruce at all? I could buy Bruce wanting to be prepared just incase and even taking him out because of how great a risk he is but if he's going that far I need a better reason for why he stops.

Bruce knew Lex was neck deep in some shyt because of the human trafficking that lead back to him and all the excess stuff on the server he hacked. He chose to ignore that to focus on Superman which makes it worse. Superman chose to ignore Lex's goons to focus on Batman for no reason as well. The movie was a mess.

Trilly, EVERYONE should figure out Clark Kent is Superman. He fukkin' wears glasses as a disguise. lol But if we have to table that, did they even get into how Luther found out who Superman was? They did pay some lip service to him saving Lois all the time I believe? Also, they just conveniently change who knows and doesn't know at their whim. Firstly, Fishburne's character is in the dark UNTIL Lois needs a chopper to go to a superhero fight. And now everyone knows since Clark and Supes died like the same day and look exactly alike, right? Probably not. lol

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

Trilly, EVERYONE should figure out Clark Kent is Superman. He fukkin' wears glasses as a disguise. lol But if we have to table that, did they even get into how Luther found out who Superman was? They did pay some lip service to him saving Lois all the time I believe? Also, they just conveniently change who knows and doesn't know at their whim. Firstly, Fishburne's character is in the dark UNTIL Lois needs a chopper to go to a superhero fight. And now everyone knows since Clark and Supes died like the same day and look exactly alike, right? Probably not. lol

Yea thats just something we have to accept is not happening

Yea, I do think Fishburne knew at the end. You gotta remember he saw her kiss Superman in MOS and now she's living with Clark. Both disappear, etc

Even though I liked Lex as a character (the performance itself depends on the viewer) a lot of flaws stem from him. They legit got it set up like he just knew everybody. From Batman, to Superman and all the other metahumans, even the logos

 

[AnonymityX1000]

Yea thats just something we have to accept is not happening

Yea, I do think Fishburne knew at the end. You gotta remember he saw her kiss Superman in MOS and now she's living with Clark. Both disappear, etc

Even though I liked Lex as a character (the performance itself depends on the viewer) a lot of flaws stem from him. They legit got it set up like he just knew everybody. From Batman, to Superman and all the other metahumans, even the logos

Yeah he was up on metahumans but none of the Suicide Squad. lol Missed opportunity for connecting the universe, I guess you can only spend so much screen time on WonderWoman watching youtube clips.

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

Yeah he was up on metahumans but none of the Suicide Squad. lol Missed opportunity for connecting the universe, I guess you can only spend so much screen time on WonderWoman watching youtube clips.

I wonder if Waller will be in Justice League

 

[chico25]

Batman was only searching for the Kryptonite as something of a defense for Superman. The trailers made it seem like Batman/Superman would be having this conflict the entire movie.

When really it didn't occur to much later on that yes he was trying to kill him.

It wasn't until the dream/vision that he outright told Alfred they have to destroy him. Once the Capitol Hill exploded thats when stole the Kryptonite to go and kill him.

The bolded was never shown in the movie, Bruce was lying to Alfred about a dirty bomb while looking for the Kryptonite and was possibly planning to kill him the whole time. The look he had at the beginning of the film indicated that he wanted to stop Superman by means necessary and nothing in the movie showed that changed at any point prior to "Martha".

In World's Finest Bruce didn't figure out who Superman was until Superman figured out who Bruce was. They had a physical confrontation first and then he placed a tracker on him. In the movie he was legit surprised/shocked to see him up close.

He could have placed a tracker on him when Superman ran into his car. That would be a Batman like thing to do.

Batman spends most of the time searching for a possible Alien weapon to hurt him/have defense for him. As I've said before this wasn't OG Batman as @O.T.I.S. ...this is lost hope, one track minded Batman who on a mission to kill a God.

Once he finally saw the "God" as just another man his mindset shifts towards Lex who is the real villain. Not the God.

But if it just didn't work for you....thats fine.

The bold is a part of my biggest problem with the movie, they try to have it both ways on a few things and it bugs me. They want to have a dark, serious movie with deep themes, that are weakly executed, but then want to have the film turn on a point as silly as two protagonists mother's having the same name. They want sell the movie on the name of well know characters and to include out of context, unexplained foreshadowing to comic references while ignoring the characters personality traits and calling it a new interpretation. They want a realistic look at a world with Superman but force us to take a pair of glasses as a viable disguise and take Lex finding out everything with no explanation at face value. It just doesn't work.

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

The bolded was never shown in the movie, Bruce was lying to Alfred about a dirty bomb while looking for the Kryptonite and was possibly planning to kill him the whole time. The look he had at the beginning of the film indicated that he wanted to stop Superman by means necessary and nothing in the movie showed that changed at any point prior to "Martha".

The reason I said is because the movie jumps to 18 months later. They decided to not make the MOS ending the driving point on him getting at Superman. But more or so when Batman feels helpless again and lost hope. It wasn't just about Bruce

He could have placed a tracker on him when Superman ran into his car. That would be a Batman like thing to do.​

Thats what I thought they were going to do at first. But he never got close to him. He just got more pissed...not our Batman. He was just as much of a villain as Lex. They both had the same goals, Lex was being Lex....Bruce wasn't being Bruce.

The bold is a part of my biggest problem with the movie, they try to have it both ways on a few things and it bugs me. They want to have a dark, serious movie with deep themes, that are weakly executed, but then want to have the film turn on a point as silly as two protagonists mother's having the same name. They want sell the movie on the name of well know characters and to include out of context, unexplained foreshadowing to comic references while ignoring the characters personality traits and calling it a new interpretation. They want a realistic look at a world with Superman but force us to take a pair of glasses as a viable disguise and take Lex finding out everything with no explanation at face value. It just doesn't work.

Eh, to each its own breh. I've seen the movie a couple times. Once I accepted that Batman is lost and only finds himself once finding humanity in Superman...I was alright with it. The names themselves

I liked the fact he wasn't Batman we all know and then became that at the end.

As I said if it didn't work for you...thats fine.

 

[2 Up 2 Down]

This movie is definitely better with a second viewing. I wasn't bothered by the things I didn't care for in the first showing (besides the little girl in the wreckage). Also I picked up on little things I missed.

My rating went from "pretty good" to "dope"