The Kevin Durant Conundrum...

[Everythingg]

It's hard to find a team without a top-5 player at a position. MOST teams fit this description, and the ones that don't generally suck ass. Is that really your entire argument?

I’m just turning the logic of this thread against itself. If KD going to play with other great players (and being their best player) doesn’t count as anchoring than why does Bron rings count?

I bet you couldn't even describe to me what Love or Bosh's games were before they joined Bron. Neither one lived in the paint.

The year before joining Bron, Kevin Love shot 25% of his shots at the rim. The year after he joined Bron, that dropped to 21%. That's the big deal to you? Love was a terrible scorer at the rim (just 60% for Minnesota) and a below-average post player. Then he got hurt his first year in Cleveland, lost weight, and came back even worse inside. NO ONE was winning a title by putting Love in the paint, Minnesota couldn't even win regular season games with that. What the hell do you think Love should have been doing in the paint for Cleveland?

Bosh shot 34% of his attempts at the rim for Toronto, the year he moved to Miami that dropped to 23% and then went back up to 30% the next three years. But again, he was just a 62% shooter at the rim for the Raptors. That's not great at all. He didn't play in the paint, he played more of a perimeter game and most of his inside scoring was drives or beating his man.

Bosh and Love both were about 49-50% eFG guys before they joined up with Bron. How the fukk are you going to win with efficiency that low? Bosh was able to raise that to 56% and 57% in his last two years with Bron, Love got to 55% by his last year with Bron, for both of them those are career highs by a mile. You need efficiency at that level to compete for a title.

Yea they weren’t as effective because they were masquerading as top players when really they were suited to be second/third best players on winning teams. Bosh worked in the midrange and was pushed out to being a catch and shoot player.

The Warriors WERE their scheme, changing that IS changing their game. You're being flat ridiculous now.

Use your own words then. How did Currya game change when KD came? Again if you add a top 5 player to ANY TEAM, it’s going to change the way the offense flows. But was Klay still sniping? Was Curry still cooking off the dribble and hitting threes? Or running around screens and sniping? Was Dray still running point forward?

Use your own words and describe how their games changed…

Complete ignorance.

Bosh averaged just 12 made threes his first three seasons with Bron. That's 12 threes the ENTIRE SEASON. Whereas after Bron left, he averaged 70 made threes/season.

Kevin Love's career highs in 3pt attempts were 2014 (6.6/game), 2019 (6.7/game), and 2020 (7.0/game). In-between during his 4 seasons with Bron, he averaged 5.2, 5.6, 5.7, and 6.5. So how the fukk ae you claiming that Bron is the one who turned him into a three-point shooter, when he was already doing more of it before Bron was ever in the picture?

And referring to Love as a defender?

They had to change their games to fit Bron. Period. The only great player(s) to play with Bron that kept playing the same way was Kyrie and later AD. Everyone else had to change an aspect of their game in some way to fit with Bron. I don’t even know why you’re arguing that point. I again ask you, how did Curry and Klay have to change their game to fit with KD?

I was using 3 and D loosely. I meant that they had to change the way they played to fit in with Bron. I mean they still won but it’s completely different than what KD did by going to GS which is why I said his move one upped Brons. Curry’s game didn’t change when KD came. Nor did Klays.

When Pau Gasol went to LA, he didn’t have to change the way he played to fit in with Kobe. He still was able to post up, pick and pop, playmake from the post etc.. Everybody that played with Bron had to switch up their game somewhat to mesh with his besides Kyrie and AD. And there’s nothing wrong with that because they won. But it’s OP stating that KD didn’t anchor any championship teams that brought all this up and I’m wondering (and he’s still dodging) what’s the difference?

 

[VegetasHairline]

All these walls of text!

 

[Imyremeshaw]

I don’t count what Kareem did in LA as “driving the bus”. That’s why they won right when Magic came and Magic won finals MVP. Kareem is exactly what KD was. A great talent that wasn’t a leader. But had KD had a Magic Johnson as his 1A or 1B, he would have won with the thunder too. Instead he had a low IQ Westbrook and a front office that was too cheap to give out the max to James Harden and too stupid to pick Harden over Ibaka.

And Bron always stacks the chips in his favor too. Most of y’all are mad because KD one upped him when it came to that…

You can't be serious, you do know that Kareem won the 1980s NBA MVP, the same year Magic won the finals mvp and would have been finals mvp if he wasn't out game six....

Kareem was definitely driving the bus, have you watched that 1980s final, and no way was Magic better than Kareem.....

I don't know what other guys are mad at. For myself KD has never one-upped Bron in anything. I've already upthread I had no issue with him leaving OKC, I didn't like the optics of going to the squad who eliminated you. But KD leaving OKC and winning in GS isn't something that bothers me...

I don't have a single post anywhere that says his GS chips "don't count" nor have I ever said that in offline conversations about him...

I've stated very clearly my position on Durant and dudes keep trying to make it something else. You're entitled to your own beliefs but I've been very clear my thing with Durant. It ain't got shyt, not one thing, to do with LeBron. Literally nothing...

To your Kareem point, part of that is why I don't think Kareem has a strong case as GOAT. I can make a "general" case, because I can make a "general" case for like 10 guys as the best player ever. But Kareem doesn't really have a string ass case and that's in part due to the fact he was in The League a whole fukking decade with just one title and two Finals appearances...

A DECADE. That's a long time...

Then Magic shows up and he immediately wins 5 of the next 9 championships?

That isn't "Kareem". We had TEN YEARS of Kareem before that to show us who he was. This is a heavy strain on the evaluation of his career to me, and it gets underplayed significantly I'm modern basketball discourse. But pre-2010s Kareem wasn't this lock for GOAT talk and my guess is when more people were around who saw Cap and remembered him, there's a cognizance that his impact on winning wasn't quite at "greatest of all time" status...

What you conveniently leave out, is he won an NBA championship on expansion Bucks team in only his 2nd season (Finals MVP) and won 6 MVPS (most by any player, MVP was voted by the players then ) during this decade, so even if he didn't win the five other championships with Magic his resume is still a top 10-12 player material....

I don't believe in the concept of a GOAT, too many variables/changes to have honest discussion or assessment(Tier system is better imho) so I can't call him GOAT but his resume and play matches up with anyone....

 

[Everythingg]

You can't be serious, you do know that Kareem won the 1980s NBA MVP, the same year Magic won the finals mvp and would have been finals mvp if he wasn't out game six....

Kareem was definitely driving the bus, have you watched that 1980s final, and no way was Magic better than Kareem.....

OP said being the best player and winning finals mvp doesn’t mean you anchored the team


Besides me using his logic against him, Kareem and KD are similar in the sense that they were/are great top level talents who don’t lead. Kareem wasn’t a leader he was considered moody and a lone wolf. But he also a high level, all time great talent. Same with KD.

 

[Imyremeshaw]

OP said being the best player and winning finals mvp doesn’t mean you anchored the team


Besides me using his logic against him, Kareem and KD are similar in the sense that they were/are great top level talents who don’t lead. Kareem wasn’t a leader he was considered moody and a lone wolf. But he also a high level, all time great talent. Same with KD.

I agree, your post for some reason made me see eerie similarities between the two

I know this sounds wild but I wonder if it's the way they both play the game, both KD/Kareem can score in their sleep and their respective games can fit into any system or style type. Perfect basketball players but missing something, i get it now.....

 

[Dwight Howard]

@Rhakim

That wall of text wont save you. This is what Bosh said himself.

Chris Bosh has some advice for Kevin Love now that the former Minnesota Timberwolves star is going to Cleveland to play equal partner second fiddle to LeBron James.

In a conversation with Ethan Skolnick of Bleacher Report, Bosh spoke about the difficulties of adjusting his game, attitude and expectations while playing with James as part of Miami’s “big three.”

“Yeah, it’s a lot more difficult taking a step back, because you’re used to doing something a certain way and getting looks a certain way. And then it’s like, well, no, for the benefit of the team, you have to get it here.”

 

[Everythingg]

I agree, your post for some reason made me see eerie similarities between the two

I know this sounds wild but I wonder if it's the way they both play the game, both KD/Kareem can score in their sleep and their respective games can fit into any system or style type. Perfect basketball players but missing something, i get it now.....

I think it’s more of a personality thing over their play style. It’s hard to lead a team of men when you’re introverted and not that charismatic when it comes to groups like they are. I’d throw Kawai into that as well.

People try to use that against KD (usually to prop other players up) but I really don’t see the problem. He’s not a rah rah follow me type of guy he just goes out there to play his game to the best of his ability then goes home. But when it comes to his talent? You can really put him up there with anybody sans MJ

 

[Professor Emeritus]

@Rhakim

That wall of text wont save you. This is what Bosh said himself.

Chris Bosh has some advice for Kevin Love now that the former Minnesota Timberwolves star is going to Cleveland to play equal partner second fiddle to LeBron James.

In a conversation with Ethan Skolnick of Bleacher Report, Bosh spoke about the difficulties of adjusting his game, attitude and expectations while playing with James as part of Miami’s “big three.”

“Yeah, it’s a lot more difficult taking a step back, because you’re used to doing something a certain way and getting looks a certain way. And then it’s like, well, no, for the benefit of the team, you have to get it here.”

Bosh said exactly what I said you dumbass.


I didn't say that Bosh didn't have to change his game. I said that Bosh HAD to change his game because no one was going to win a title relying on Bosh's pre-Bron game. Bosh was a 50% 2pt shooter who didn't take threes, and that's in the regular season on a crappy team when you get a lot more easy buckets. He wasn't doing anything elite enough offensively that you could anchor a title team with. That's why he had to adjust for the sake of the team.


Now that you posted proof for my own point, will you believe the same proof when the Warriors said they had to adjust to Durant when he joined?

 

[fifth column]

Can y'all explain what this actually means? In a 20 years career, Bron's only been favored in the Finals 3 times. How is that possible if he had always stacked the chips in his favor?

One of the most disingenuous questions I’ve ever seen ask on here. There’s the truth then there’s your version of the truth so tell it

 

[fifth column]

I don't though, so I'm not sure why you stuck on this...

Durant and LeBron have had different career circumstances. Durant has tried to parallel Bron's career both on and off the court (The Boardroom bit off Bron's shyt, and Durant himself has stated he's "chased" Bron and measured himself to Bron's success). But their careers have been different...

Just like Bron did with MJlet me guess Bron wants to own a team when he retires and sign players to his Lebron sneaker brand

 

[KidJSoul]

Let's be honest, if KD never went to Golden state... does he have a ring?

If he didn't join a 70 win team off of 2 finals runs, with an MVP on it, does he win?

That matters. People like to ignore it with "2 finals mvps" but the reality is that if he can't win again outside of Golden state, then the question becomes:

"How do we know other ringless players couldn't have won if they didn't hop on the Warriors?"

How do we know Karl Malone wouldn't have won a ring if he didn't just join the Bulls? Or if Reggie Miller joined the Bulls?

Prime TMac and prime Carmelo probably win on the Warriors, especially with how Curry was willing to defer.

The reality is that if KD doesn't join golden state, his legacy would be between Dirk and Karl Malone and James Harden - top 15-20 all time.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

One of the most disingenuous questions I’ve ever seen ask on here. There’s the truth then there’s your version of the truth so tell it

Nice juelz out of answering the question.

The constant claim is that Bron's Miami and Cleveland teams were so good that it gave him easy chips. But the claim is pure bullshyt. None of those chips were easy - Bron had to play like an All-time GOAT to win each one of them by the skin of his teeth.


So y'all aren't pissed off that Bron got "easy" chips. Y'all are pissed off that Bron had teams good enough to win a chip at all.

 

[Peruvian Connect]

Let's be honest, if LeBron never went to Miami... does he have a ring?

If he didn't Wade, Bosh ,Kyrie, Love & AD does he win?

That matters. People like to ignore it with "4 finals mvps" but the reality is that if he can't win without another superstar, then the question becomes:

"How do we know other ringless players couldn't have won if they created super teams?"

How do we know Karl Malone wouldn't have won a ring if he didn't just join the Bulls? Or if Reggie Miller joined the Bulls?

Prime TMac and prime Carmelo probably win on the Warriors, especially with how Curry was willing to defer.

The reality is that if LeBron doesn't join Miami, his legacy would be between Dirk and Karl Malone and James Harden - top 15-20 all time.

 

[Peruvian Connect]

Nice juelz out of answering the question.

The constant claim is that Bron's Miami and Cleveland teams were so good that it gave him easy chips. But the claim is pure bullshyt. None of those chips were easy - Bron had to play like an All-time GOAT to win each one of them by the skin of his teeth.


So y'all aren't pissed off that Bron got "easy" chips. Y'all are pissed off that Bron had teams good enough to win a chip at all.

Not one, not two, not three.. Man we can have Pat Rilety run point, thats how easy this finna be.

 

[fifth column]

Nice juelz out of answering the question.

The constant claim is that Bron's Miami and Cleveland teams were so good that it gave him easy chips. But the claim is pure bullshyt. None of those chips were easy - Bron had to play like an All-time GOAT to win each one of them by the skin of his teeth.


So y'all aren't pissed off that Bron got "easy" chips. Y'all are pissed off that Bron had teams good enough to win a chip at all.

Except stacking the team in your favor and winning the chip are 2 different things, Bron stack his teams to give himself an easier chance (keyword) to win instead of building like a Mike or Steph