The Kevin Durant Conundrum...

[Professor Emeritus]

Whatever happened to those puppet commercials that Nike was pushing where Bron and Kobe was supposed to meet in the finals? Kobe got there and won but I don’t remember seeing Lebron the supposed best player in the league. Like I said, your version of events vs reality

Switch Bron's teammates and Kobe's teammates, and those commercials don't even get made because no one in their wildest dreams would think Kobe is going to drag Mo Williams and Delonte West to the Finals. Nike played up Bron because he was the biggest star in the league and had already carried the worst Finals sidekicks of all-time to one Finals matchup. How does that help your case at all?

You keep dodging every single fact I lay down about Bron's teammates and team, because you know you have nothing to say. You can only talk about perceptions of Bron and media attention. Doesn't that get embarrassing at some point?


Some people in the conservation are talking about basketball. And others are talking about puppets.

 

[KidJSoul]

Only ever won win he went to a team that already won titles before and after he got there

Yeah basically.

I can't justify putting him over Dirk or KG if that's all his skillset did for him: winning on a team that won before he came and after he left. And never winning outside of them.

You mean to tell KG wouldn't have won on that warriors team with his defense and far jumpers (that would be 3pts nowadays)?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Yeah basically.

I can't justify putting him over Dirk or KG if that's all his skillset did for him: winning on a team that won before he came and after he left. And never winning outside of them.

You mean to tell KG wouldn't have won on that warriors team with his defense and far jumpers (that would be 3pts nowadays)?

Exactly. Prime KG would have been ridiculous on that team, fits into the offense more smoothly while giving a huge boost to the defense.


That's why ring-counting out of context is so meaningless to me. 2017 and 2018 didn't prove anything about KD that we didn't already know because the Warriors didn't need KD to be a GOAT or even a HOFer to win. Any high-end forward in KD's place is going to win with that team. You're talking Dirk or KG, but put in Anthony Davis, Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Khris Middleton, they're all gonna get it done too. Your ranking as a great shouldn't be impacted by things that you didn't need to be that great to do.

 

[Dwight Howard]

Switch Bron's teammates and Kobe's teammates, and those commercials don't even get made because no one in their wildest dreams would think Kobe is going to drag Mo Williams and Delonte West to the Finals. Nike played up Bron because he was the biggest star in the league and had already carried the worst Finals sidekicks of all-time to one Finals matchup. How does that help your case at all?

You keep dodging every single fact I lay down about Bron's teammates and team, because you know you have nothing to say. You can only talk about perceptions of Bron and media attention. Doesn't that get embarrassing at some point?


Some people in the conservation are talking about basketball. And others are talking about puppets.

Kobe dragged a team with lamar Odom as the second best player to 7 games with a #2 seed(Suns) in a much much better conference. Fukk outta here

 

[Dwight Howard]

Nice juelz out of answering the question.

The constant claim is that Bron's Miami and Cleveland teams were so good that it gave him easy chips. But the claim is pure bullshyt. None of those chips were easy - Bron had to play like an All-time GOAT to win each one of them by the skin of his teeth.


So y'all aren't pissed off that Bron got "easy" chips. Y'all are pissed off that Bron had teams good enough to win a chip at all.

Doesn't matter. He intended them to be cakewalk, the only reason they weren't is because he overestimated his ability to co-exist with many of his co-stars which caused basketball issues. Notice how whenever kd goes to a new location there is no talk of finding pieces to fit with kd or about the offensive scheme.

Regardless nobody wants to hear Bron stans bytch about kd when dude literally leaves every situation the moment it's clear he can't win. It's a pattern, it's a fact, none of your typing is gonna change the shyt. Just a month ago these same dudes on kd head were begging for kyrie to come to LA. So yea fukk you Bron stans and your disingenuous narratives, nobody is buying it.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Kobe dragged a team with lamar Odom as the second best player to 7 games with a #2 seed(Suns) in a much much better conference. Fukk outta here

By "dragged" you mean "averaged 23-6-6 on 44% shooting (2-11 threes) while jumping out to a 3-1 lead only to then lose three straight."

That's "dragged" to you? Why do y'all have to constantly use the accomplishments of teammates to prop up your guy? How the fukk would winning 3 games in a 1st-round series against a flawed team somehow prove he could make a Finals run with a bad roster?


Notice your greatest example of Kobe's ability to carry a bad roster is a 1st-round exit, and that's even with a #2 option who was miles ahead of anyone Bron played with before 2011. I thought participation trophies didn't count to you guys?

Dumbass, that SAME YEAR LeBron took a Pistons team to 7 that was head-and-shoulders better than those Suns. And he did it with his shytty-ass #2 Iglauskus averaging just 11-6-1 on 47% shooting for the series.


Did you make that post not realizing that Odom was an elite #2 who had already played an even bigger role in an ECSF run, and that having a guy who can put up an efficient 20-12-5 with good defense isn't a bad deal?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Notice how whenever kd goes to a new location there is no talk of finding pieces to fit with kd or about the offensive scheme.

Why do you lie so much, that was already disproven in THIS THREAD.

Warriors' offense adjusting around Durant

After Kevin Durant's first scrimmages with his new Warriors squad, it's become apparent that Golden State will let Durant be his dominant self, even if it means reduced minutes for others.

www.espn.com

Kevin Durant rips into Warriors coach Steve Kerr's motion offense

Kevin Durant has spoken. After ditching the Warriors for the Nets in free agency with little-to-no reasoning, Durant opened up on everything from his messy Oklahoma City exit to his Achilles rehab to his Warriors tenure. That includes how he fit into Warriors coach Steve Kerr’s offense. Durant...

www.nbcsports.com

Steph Curry fires back after Kevin Durant criticizes Warriors offense

Kevin Durant has sent some mixed messages about what he wants in his basketball situation. He was the man in Oklahoma City, co-starring with Russell Westbrook in an offense heavily predicated on isolation basketball. In search of playing a more beautiful game, Durant left OKC in 2016 to join the...

www.nbcsports.com

Not to mention that on the Nets there was constant talk about whether KD/Kyrie/Harden were a good fit and about what on the roster was missing and wasn't fitting.

Regardless nobody wants to hear Bron stans bytch about kd when dude literally leaves every situation the moment it's clear he can't win. It's a pattern, it's a fact

What superstar in basketball history has ever purposely stayed in a situation where it was clear he couldn't win? Why would that be an honorable goal?


LeBron gave 7 years to a horrible Cavs organization that didn't make a single good draft choice, a single high-level trade, or sign a single star free agent the entire time he was there. There is NO star in NBA history who has given that much of his career to an organization that terrible. Kobe was making trade demands after just 3.5 years of the Lakers not adding a major star, LeBron stayed with the Cavs for double that until it was clear that it was never happening.

 

[T'Challa Trillmonger]

an elite (or the best) sniper on the squad may not ever be the general

i think especially in the bron era (who many consider to be KD's peer in that tier), there is an expectation for KD to be able to do something similar for his teams and i don't think thats his game nor personality

 

[KidJSoul]

Exactly. Prime KG would have been ridiculous on that team, fits into the offense more smoothly while giving a huge boost to the defense.


That's why ring-counting out of context is so meaningless to me. 2017 and 2018 didn't prove anything about KD that we didn't already know because the Warriors didn't need KD to be a GOAT or even a HOFer to win. Any high-end forward in KD's place is going to win with that team. You're talking Dirk or KG, but put in Anthony Davis, Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Khris Middleton, they're all gonna get it done too. Your ranking as a great shouldn't be impacted by things that you didn't need to be that great to do.

Yeah.

I hate the Miami Bron comparisons.

Wade and Bosh together is a playoff team imo, but without Bron they are NOT making 4 finals and winning 2 chips with any other player. That's why I still give him credit for those rings, Bron was still their most important everything. Defender, scorer, passer, etc.

As where KD off the Warriors were literally a few minutes away from being back-to-back Champs

 

[KidJSoul]

an elite (or the best) sniper on the squad may not ever be the general

i think especially in the bron era (who many consider to be KD's peer in that tier), there is an expectation for KD to be able to do something similar for his teams and i don't think thats his game nor personality

That's his flaw imo. He's a great plug n play guy but he's not on that top 10-12 tier of guys that can get multiple chips as a number 1.

And he has had a lot of talent around him. That's why he's still not much different than guys like Harden, Malone, etc legacy wise.

 

[murksiderock]

That's his flaw imo. He's a great plug n play guy but he's not on that top 10-12 tier of guys that can get multiple chips as a number 1.

And he has had a lot of talent around him. That's why he's still not much different than guys like Harden, Malone, etc legacy wise.

Durant has played with 4 guys who were All-NBA WHILE PLAYING with them. Not no retroactive bullshyt like he played with a washed nikka who was formerly great years before Durant got them...

4 guys who were All-NBA while he played with them: Westbrook, Steph, Dray, and Kyrie...

The only guy of KD's era who has played with MORE elite talent is Harden (5), and Harden has gotten plenty of criticism for his failure to coexist with other greats to win a title. KD's 4 is also tied with Steph, CP3, and Kawhi...

And it's more than LeBron (3), who is the guy who gets criticized the most for having the most "stacked" squads when that isn't even close to truth...

KD's four All-NBA teammates made the All-NBA team 10x, which is tops in his era, tied in the lead with CP3 who also had his four teammates make 10 All-NBA teams...

Durant's teammates have made 16 All-Star games, tied with LeBron for the most...

Durant's teammates have made 8 All-D teams, second-most behind Steph (10)...

Durant is first or second in number of teammates to make All-NBA; number of teammates to be All-Stars; total All-NBA selections among teammates; total All-Star selections among teammates; total All-D selections among teammates; teammates to make an All-D team...

He's first or second among the great players of his generation I'm every single category. The only defense against the idea he's played with the most talent in his career, is if you add in that he's accomplished more than the guy or two you'd argue has had more help. But when you stack Durant next to the three defining players of his primary era (Bron, Steph, Kawhi), Durant has had the most "help" career-long than any of these guys. And there isn't much argument against it...

But guys on here wanna carry the "so he supposed to rot in Brooklyn" torch . Kevin Durant has never had to "rot" anywhere...

nikka upthread said he doesn't see what the conundrum about KD is...

So I'll simplify it. Name all the other guys who are considered GOAT 15. Add up all their "All-Something" teammates (All-NBA, All-D, All-Star) who were "All-Something" while those GOATs played with them, and how many times they made an All-Something team...

Then tell me what the results those GOATs got with those All-Something teammates in terms of chips, Championship appearances, and conference Finals record and appearances...

I already know the answer to this. KD is one of the least accomplished GOAT15 players despite playing with some of the most high end talent, and the only reason he isn't THE least accomplished is because guys like O (who ain't in my GOAT15) and West (who may barely creep in mine) are inexplicably viewed as GOAT15 by consensus...

Guys who play with the level of talent Durant has had generally succeed to a higher degree, Wilt is his historical parallel in this regard...

No, the Kevin Durant Conundrum is a real thing. When he's gone fir good there'll me more scrutiny into the minutiae of his career than what he was afforded in real time, because in real time he was overshadowed by at least two other greats who took the lens of scrutiny away from KD...

 

[KidJSoul]

Durant has played with 4 guys who were All-NBA WHILE PLAYING with them. Not no retroactive bullshyt like he played with a washed nikka who was formerly great years before Durant got them...

4 guys who were All-NBA while he played with them: Westbrook, Steph, Dray, and Kyrie...

The only guy of KD's era who has played with MORE elite talent is Harden (5), and Harden has gotten plenty of criticism for his failure to coexist with other greats to win a title. KD's 4 is also tied with Steph, CP3, and Kawhi...

And it's more than LeBron (3), who is the guy who gets criticized the most for having the most "stacked" squads when that isn't even close to truth...

KD's four All-NBA teammates made the All-NBA team 10x, which is tops in his era, tied in the lead with CP3 who also had his four teammates make 10 All-NBA teams...

Durant's teammates have made 16 All-Star games, tied with LeBron for the most...

Durant's teammates have made 8 All-D teams, second-most behind Steph (10)...

Durant is first or second in number of teammates to make All-NBA; number of teammates to be All-Stars; total All-NBA selections among teammates; total All-Star selections among teammates; total All-D selections among teammates; teammates to make an All-D team...

He's first or second among the great players of his generation I'm every single category. The only defense against the idea he's played with the most talent in his career, is if you add in that he's accomplished more than the guy or two you'd argue has had more help. But when you stack Durant next to the three defining players of his primary era (Bron, Steph, Kawhi), Durant has had the most "help" career-long than any of these guys. And there isn't much argument against it...

But guys on here wanna carry the "so he supposed to rot in Brooklyn" torch . Kevin Durant has never had to "rot" anywhere...

nikka upthread said he doesn't see what the conundrum about KD is...

So I'll simplify it. Name all the other guys who are considered GOAT 15. Add up all their "All-Something" teammates (All-NBA, All-D, All-Star) who were "All-Something" while those GOATs played with them, and how many times they made an All-Something team...

Then tell me what the results those GOATs got with those All-Something teammates in terms of chips, Championship appearances, and conference Finals record and appearances...

I already know the answer to this. KD is one of the least accomplished GOAT15 players despite playing with some of the most high end talent, and the only reason he isn't THE least accomplished is because guys like O (who ain't in my GOAT15) and West (who may barely creep in mine) are inexplicably viewed as GOAT15 by consensus...

Guys who play with the level of talent Durant has had generally succeed to a higher degree, Wilt is his historical parallel in this regard...

No, the Kevin Durant Conundrum is a real thing. When he's gone fir good there'll me more scrutiny into the minutiae of his career than what he was afforded in real time, because in real time he was overshadowed by at least two other greats who took the lens of scrutiny away from KD...

Agreed

Bron got 4 Chips with his talent. Curry got 4 with his talent.

Durant? Only won when he had to join one of those guys.

That'd be like batman having to join superman to beat the joker.

Anyway, to make matters worse: Durant didn't really enhance his teammates legacies that much.

If Durant didn't exist:

Westbrook would still be known as a HOF, high intensity point guard with bad basketball iq who is a bad playoff performer...

Kyrie would still be known as a talented, flashy pg that hasn't accomplished anything without LeBron....

Curry and the Warriors would still have multiple rings, as they would have just replaced him with a starting caliber small forward between 2017-2019, and still would have probably won at LEAST 1 ring in that time frame (and Curry with 3 non-KD superteam rings would have a similar legacy to what he has now, probably greater if he gets more finals MVPs)

See what I mean?

 

[Volt]

I'mma catch hate for this, but Top 15 All-Time might be too much for a guy with zero leadership qualities and no success as the #1 guy in a franchise.

Ultimately, you gotta pull results to back things up in cases like these.

 

[Dwight Howard]

Why do you lie so much, that was already disproven in THIS THREAD.

Warriors' offense adjusting around Durant

After Kevin Durant's first scrimmages with his new Warriors squad, it's become apparent that Golden State will let Durant be his dominant self, even if it means reduced minutes for others.

www.espn.com

Kevin Durant rips into Warriors coach Steve Kerr's motion offense

Kevin Durant has spoken. After ditching the Warriors for the Nets in free agency with little-to-no reasoning, Durant opened up on everything from his messy Oklahoma City exit to his Achilles rehab to his Warriors tenure. That includes how he fit into Warriors coach Steve Kerr’s offense. Durant...

www.nbcsports.com

Steph Curry fires back after Kevin Durant criticizes Warriors offense

Kevin Durant has sent some mixed messages about what he wants in his basketball situation. He was the man in Oklahoma City, co-starring with Russell Westbrook in an offense heavily predicated on isolation basketball. In search of playing a more beautiful game, Durant left OKC in 2016 to join the...

www.nbcsports.com

Not to mention that on the Nets there was constant talk about whether KD/Kyrie/Harden were a good fit and about what on the roster was missing and wasn't fitting.






What superstar in basketball history has ever purposely stayed in a situation where it was clear he couldn't win? Why would that be an honorable goal?


LeBron gave 7 years to a horrible Cavs organization that didn't make a single good draft choice, a single high-level trade, or sign a single star free agent the entire time he was there. There is NO star in NBA history who has given that much of his career to an organization that terrible. Kobe was making trade demands after just 3.5 years of the Lakers not adding a major star, LeBron stayed with the Cavs for double that until it was clear that it was never happening.

You just posted a whole bunch of bullshyt for nothing. Kd's fit was NEVER questioned in GS. No amount of typing is going to change that. You're purposely misconflating KD wanting more iso opportunities with him not fitting into the system. You aren't slick, try that shyt on someone else.

 

[Shadow King]

Taking into consideration that thos season isn't yet complete, Durant has played 13 non-Warrior seasons. Just for context, Magic, Bird, and Russell are Top 10 GOATs and each played 13 years of pro basketball. 13 years is a full career...

Here's Durant's 13-year, non-Warrior resume:

•0-1 Finals, 1-3 WCF
•'14 MVP (+5x Top 5 finish, 3x runner-up), '12 AMVP, '08 ROY
•7x All-NBA (5x 1st Team), 10x All-Star
•4x scoring champ, '13 50-40-90

This isn't a better resume than Mailman. This is an inferior resume to Elgin. It's not definitively a stronger resume than Barkley or Iverson...

If Durant never went to GS, he wouldn't be considered Top 20. He'd more likely be in that 25-30 range of players...

That GS stint is the reason he's considered Top 15 at present, and underscores your point that in a 13-year non-GS career there's yet to be any indication he can win it all. Fair or not, when people really look back at his career they'll give more introspection to his non-GS career than they did in real time while he played...