The Kevin Durant Conundrum...

[Devil Plisken…CMS]

This ain't about Bron, so I don't know why cats love bringing him into threads he don't belong...

We talking about Kev's career. But if we're having a "cut corners" Olympics we cab start a new thread and talk about the All-Timers who forced their way to be drafted by certain teams instead of appreciating wherever they went and grind from there; we can talk about the All-Timer whose team "cut corners" to draft him; we can talk about the All-Timer whonforced his way outta TWO situations on some pre-Durant shyt, etc...

Yall noggas don't even be arguing in good faith or truly don't know the history of the sport and its greatest players. Just stanning Bron and blaming anything you want on him ...

I don’t see no conundrum thread about the other guy but they was on the same type of time.

Oh Well

 

[Everythingg]

Well this is false and you're saying two different things...

Saying Kareem could never win without an All-Time point is different than saying he never "drove" the bus, which isn't true. Oscar came to his team, not the other way around. Kareem was clearly the best player on that team and while Kareem choked in that '74 Finals down the stretch, he at least gave Milwaukee something. That was O's last season and he looked as washed as you'd expect him too...

Kareem had already been in LA for 4 years before Magic's arrival so again he didn't come to someone else's team. He was the best player for their first two chips together...

Durant is the only player in his historical weight class who I question how he wins. He's in his historical weight class because of the GS run, so winning clearly matters more than "how" he's won. But the fact we don't have an example of him being the CLEAR anchor of a title team is part of his story. You don't have to like it, and I don't either, but it's part of his story.

I don’t count what Kareem did in LA as “driving the bus”. That’s why they won right when Magic came and Magic won finals MVP. Kareem is exactly what KD was. A great talent that wasn’t a leader. But had KD had a Magic Johnson as his 1A or 1B, he would have won with the thunder too. Instead he had a low IQ Westbrook and a front office that was too cheap to give out the max to James Harden and too stupid to pick Harden over Ibaka.

And Bron always stacks the chips in his favor too. Most of y’all are mad because KD one upped him when it came to that…

 

[Stone]

If Westbrook/PG had done a little better than a couple first round exits or Brooklyn had a healthy run at it with a degree of normalcy I’d see your points. Otherwise nah

 

[Devil Plisken…CMS]

And Bron always stacks the chips on his favor too. Most of y’all are mad because KD one upped him when it came to that…

That’s what it alwayssss comes down to. What makes you laugh will make you cry.

 

[murksiderock]

I don’t count what Kareem did in LA as “driving the bus”. That’s why they won right when Magic came and Magic won finals MVP. Kareem is exactly what KD was. A great talent that wasn’t a leader. But had KD had a Magic Johnson as his 1A or 1B, he would have won with the thunder too. Instead he had a low IQ Westbrook and a front office that was too cheap to give out the max to James Harden and too stupid to pick Harden over Ibaka.

And Bron always stacks the chips on his favor too. Most of y’all are mad because KD one upped him when it came to that…

I don't know what other guys are mad at. For myself KD has never one-upped Bron in anything. I've already upthread I had no issue with him leaving OKC, I didn't like the optics of going to the squad who eliminated you. But KD leaving OKC and winning in GS isn't something that bothers me...

I don't have a single post anywhere that says his GS chips "don't count" nor have I ever said that in offline conversations about him...

I've stated very clearly my position on Durant and dudes keep trying to make it something else. You're entitled to your own beliefs but I've been very clear my thing with Durant. It ain't got shyt, not one thing, to do with LeBron. Literally nothing...

To your Kareem point, part of that is why I don't think Kareem has a strong case as GOAT. I can make a "general" case, because I can make a "general" case for like 10 guys as the best player ever. But Kareem doesn't really have a string ass case and that's in part due to the fact he was in The League a whole fukking decade with just one title and two Finals appearances...

A DECADE. That's a long time...

Then Magic shows up and he immediately wins 5 of the next 9 championships?

That isn't "Kareem". We had TEN YEARS of Kareem before that to show us who he was. This is a heavy strain on the evaluation of his career to me, and it gets underplayed significantly I'm modern basketball discourse. But pre-2010s Kareem wasn't this lock for GOAT talk and my guess is when more people were around who saw Cap and remembered him, there's a cognizance that his impact on winning wasn't quite at "greatest of all time" status...

 

[Professor Emeritus]

And Bron always stacks the chips in his favor too.

Can y'all explain what this actually means? In a 20 years career, Bron's only been favored in the Finals 3 times. How is that possible if he had always stacked the chips in his favor?

 

[Everythingg]

I don't know what other guys are mad at. For myself KD has never one-upped Bron in anything. I've already upthread I had no issue with him leaving OKC, I didn't like the optics of going to the squad who eliminated you. But KD leaving OKC and winning in GS isn't something that bothers me...

I don't have a single post anywhere that says his GS chips "don't count" nor have I ever said that in offline conversations about him...

I've stated very clearly my position on Durant and dudes keep trying to make it something else. You're entitled to your own beliefs but I've been very clear my thing with Durant. It ain't got shyt, not one thing, to do with LeBron. Literally nothing...

To your Kareem point, part of that is why I don't think Kareem has a strong case as GOAT. I can make a "general" case, because I can make a "general" case for like 10 guys as the best player ever. But Kareem doesn't really have a string ass case and that's in part due to the fact he was in The League a whole fukking decade with just one title and two Finals appearances...

A DECADE. That's a long time...

Then Magic shows up and he immediately wins 5 of the next 9 championships?

That isn't "Kareem". We had TEN YEARS of Kareem before that to show us who he was. This is a heavy strain on the evaluation of his career to me, and it gets underplayed significantly I'm modern basketball discourse. But pre-2010s Kareem wasn't this lock for GOAT talk and my guess is when more people were around who saw Cap and remembered him, there's a cognizance that his impact on winning wasn't quite at "greatest of all time" status...

Yea Bron stacked the deck when he linked up with a top 2 SG(who had already won) in Wade and top 5 PF in Bosh. And KD one upped him by going to a team that fit him perfectly. What’s the problem? Let me guess? You count Brons years in Miami as him being an anchor? Or him going back to Cleveland with a top 5 PG in Kyrie as him being an anchor? Or what about him coming to LA, stinking it up, before getting AD? That counts as an anchor? I’m just making sure you keep the energy thorough all the way thru because most people who discount what KD did in GS, don’t keep it the same way when it comes to Bron.

And all you said about Kareem is my point. He’s just like KD. A superstar talent that couldn’t really lead. But maybe KD could have led a team if he didn’t have the low IQ Westbrook literally competing with him the first 9 years of his career.

 

[The God Poster]

Murk, you shameful

Sincerely, @The God Poster

 

[murksiderock]

because most people who discount what KD did in GS

I don't though, so I'm not sure why you stuck on this...

Durant and LeBron have had different career circumstances. Durant has tried to parallel Bron's career both on and off the court (The Boardroom bit off Bron's shyt, and Durant himself has stated he's "chased" Bron and measured himself to Bron's success). But their careers have been different...

 

[Everythingg]

Can y'all explain what this actually means? In a 20 years career, Bron's only been favored in the Finals 3 times. How is that possible if he had always stacked the chips in his favor?

Cut it out bruh

He left Cleveland the first time and teamed up with a top 2 SG that had already won a championship as the main guy and a top 5 PF. Then when that ran its course he ran to Cleveland to play with a top 5 PG in Kyrie and a PF that at the time was considered a top 5 PF in Love. Then he leaves for LA, stinks it up, then AD falls in his lap and they win again.

And nothings wrong with that in this culture of if you don’t win you ain’t shyt. But the same people who looked the other way when Bron did it, shouldn’t get mad at KD because he did it better. Because when KD did it no one had to CHANGE their game like certain players did when Bron came (Bosh, Love, Wade to a certain degree)…KD did it better and certain Bron Stan’s got mad and wanted to discredit his rings for it

 

[Everythingg]

I don't though, so I'm not sure why you stuck on this...

Then answer… What teams has Lebron “anchored”? I’m just seeing if you keep same energy

 

[HimmyHendrix]

Steph, Harden, and Russ have
4 MVPS and a finals MVP between them.

He’s played with all time great talent his whole career

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Cut it out bruh

He left Cleveland the first time and teamed up with a top 2 SG that had already won a championship as the main guy and a top 5 PF. Then when that ran its course he ran to Cleveland to play with a top 5 PG in Kyrie and a PF that at the time was considered a top 5 PF in Love. Then he leaves for LA, stinks it up, then AD falls in his lap and they win again.

So by "stack the odds in his favor", you meant, "Play on a squad that had at least some chance of winning the title, rather than one that had none."

You could make the same list of "top 5 this" or "top 5 that" for nearly every superstar that has ever played the game. If you're not playing with at least one top-5 player at some position, then either you have an extremely balanced roster with great coaching or your team isn't going to win. The years you listed were just 10 out of 20 in Bron's career, and you could reduce that down to around five if you only counted the years those stars finished the year healthy and in that top-5 position. He's also had the 2007 Finals, 2015 Finals, and 2018 Finals where he drug his team there without any top-5 shyt, but those apparently escaped your memory. Even the 2019 squad you claim "stunk it up" was in great position until Bron went down with the groin pull.

And nothings wrong with that in this culture of if you don’t win you ain’t shyt. But the same people who looked the other way when Bron did it, shouldn’t get mad at KD because he did it better. Because when KD did it no one had to CHANGE their game like certain players did when Bron came (Bosh, Love, Wade to a certain degree)…KD did it better and certain Bron Stan’s got mad and wanted to discredit his rings for it

Because Bosh and Love's games before Bron weren't good enough to win a playoff series, let alone a title. Of course they had to change. No one is ever winning a title off of Bosh or Love's offensive games or defensive games if they play the way they were pre-Bron.


Golden State didn't have to change as much because they won a fukking title before KD. Why would you fukk with that? But claiming they didn't change is completely disingenuous. They were MUCH more fluid before KD got there, their offense changed to fit KD and KD wasn't even shy about putting that out there.

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[murksiderock]

Then answer… What teams has Lebron “anchored”? I’m just seeing if you keep same energy

This thread isn't about LeBron, but I'll play since Bron is certainly in your mind...

When LeBron went to Cleveland in 2014, Kyrie wasn't seen as a Top 5 point, he was viewed as one of the best young players in ball, and he was just 3 years into his career. He rounded into a Top 5 player at his position playing with Bron. He hasn't been to a Finals before or after Bron, now in his 12th season, he's played 9 years without Bron...

You have to do some real mental gymnastics to say Bron didn't anchor Cleveland II...

AD played 7 years before playing with Bron. He only made the playoffs twice. In his 4 years with LeBron he's struggled to stay healthy, and he's struggled to carry the squad when Bron has been hurt...

AD has always been viewed as a Top 5 "talent" but never materialized it to a definitive Top 5 player, the best AD years saw the peaks of Bron, KD, Steph, Kawhi, Giannis, and Harden. Yall OD'ing giving AD this definitive Top 5 status, and you're doing mental gymnastics to say a guy who never did anything in 7 years, quite a sample size, without Bron is the "anchor" for Bron's LA success...

Wade was a champion before LeBron abd the emotional anchor of the Heat, no argument from me there. He wasn't the best player though clearly, and by the end of Y2 together he was already deteriorating as an elite player..

Wade played for 16 years, meaning 12 years without LeBron---->7 years pre-LeBron, 5 years post-LeBron. He has one Finals appearance in those 12 years. One. And two ECF appearances. One Championship...

In 16 years without Wade Bron won two rings, made 6 Finals, made 7 E/WCF. Their partnership was mutually beneficial, Wade was already struggling with health pre-Bron, so Bron coming there extended the life of his career---->and in turn helped Bron learn from Wade and the entire Heat organization how to better win...

 

[fifth column]

Well this is false and you're saying two different things...

Saying Kareem could never win without an All-Time point is different than saying he never "drove" the bus, which isn't true. Oscar came to his team, not the other way around. Kareem was clearly the best player on that team and while Kareem choked in that '74 Finals down the stretch, he at least gave Milwaukee something. That was O's last season and he looked as washed as you'd expect him too...

Kareem had already been in LA for 4 years before Magic's arrival so again he didn't come to someone else's team. He was the best player for their first two chips together...

Durant is the only player in his historical weight class who I question how he wins. He's in his historical weight class because of the GS run, so winning clearly matters more than "how" he's won. But the fact we don't have an example of him being the CLEAR anchor of a title team is part of his story. You don't have to like it, and I don't either, but it's part of his story.

You major in the minors when it comes to Durant for some reason. Winning is the end goal of sports.