The African Traditional And Diasporic Religions Thread (Santeria, IFA, 21 Divisions, Sanse + etc)

[$cam-U-Well_Jack$on]

i understand why but the the whole "feminist bruja" trend of the past few years is a bit disconcerting to me
nikkas still aint shyt even in diasporic religion lol

To a lot of these gals, it's only a trend. When all else fails, especially if it's popular or draws attention, heauxs gravitate to spirituality. It's akin to known harlots gravitating towards the church to be born again after failed relationships. Professional victims that don't genuinely want help because it's through their trauma that they garner attention in da form of pity or attention from other victims. Muthafukkas see crystals, sage, and other trinkets and think shyt is all roses when that's so far from da truth.

 

[BigMan]

To a lot of these gals, it's only a trend. When all else fails, especially if it's popular or draws attention, heauxs gravitate to spirituality. It's akin to known harlots gravitating towards the church to be born again after failed relationships. Professional victims that don't genuinely want help because it's through their trauma that they garner attention in da form of pity or attention from other victims. Muthafukkas see crystals, sage, and other trinkets and think shyt is all roses when that's so far from da truth.

Yup. Brujeria and crystals is the wave now
I usually don’t say nothing because idk nothing but it’s funny to me

 

[$cam-U-Well_Jack$on]

i'm not dissing the author or actress
(i might go actually watch the show now to see how they portrayed it; i stopped after two episodes)

its just a trend i'm seeing on social media amongst feminists. i personally think these girls are attracted to African and diasporic religions because of the association of patriarchy and misogyny in the christian church

and read #7
i support women but many times "fukk the Patriachy" is just code for "fukk nikkas [black men]"

i see all types of child of oshuns and brujas and witches all over social media and most seem to just be hypebeast types

but what do i know

Pay it no mind. Most proclaiming to be children of certain Orishas have never even sat down in front of no babalawo or oluwo to determine who their angel de guardia is which is a dishonor to whomever it is that may be due to the fact that most simply gravitate who's more visible. These things come with consequences as well. Hell, it's a lot of muthafukkas in this thread that think they know some shyt because they read a few articles, watched a few YouTube vids and pieced together misinformation that they've gathered from books or other uniformed muthafukkas yet they don't know shyt either.

 

[$cam-U-Well_Jack$on]

have a feeling most of these "brujas" are faking

They are. Hell, I know for a fact that some are even sellin' p*ssy.

 

[$cam-U-Well_Jack$on]

True it is a trendy thing but at the same time what she said is valid with fukk patriarchy, when you look at lucumi they tried to remove the role of women and things like that so her saying that I have to respect it. It's not her saying fukk nikkas but fukk them trying to limit the roles of woman who historically have had a place in the religion before the rise of the babalawo. You see, in Cuban society the rise of the babalawo led to women losing a lot of their power and many people pushing patriarchy with women being on the bottom due to them marrying babalawos or seeking to do so giving up their own positions to make a long story short.

The people who jump into it because they are feminist who like ochun (that people lie and say is a prostitute or whore which is not true) and the people who are into it because it's cool to be a bruja won't really last too long. Many of them will come and go as fads do because this is not for everyone. There was also a trend of people jumping into Lucumi in the 70s but that came and went also so it doesn't bother me. The ones who end up sticking with it and dedicating themselves to it will still be here but many of them will go because everything will just balance itself out, they all can't fake the funk forever. On the bright side some of them will find their way back home.

How much of what you've said in this post do you believe to be factual???

 

[Guvnor]

How much of what you've said in this post do you believe to be factual???

Explain what's not true. I can back up most of what I said but tell me what I said that was false.

 

[$cam-U-Well_Jack$on]

Explain what's not true.

I simply asked a question that went unanswered. How much of what you said in that post do you believe to be factual???

 

[Guvnor]

I simply asked a question that went unanswered. How much of what you said in that post do you believe to be factual???

Well if I said it, clearly I believed it all to be true Now I'm asking you a question sir, what did I say that was false?

 

[$cam-U-Well_Jack$on]

Well if I said it, clearly I believed it all to be true Now I'm asking you a question sir, what did I say that was false?

I don't know if you're phishing for answers or what by making broad, authoritarian statements but there's no facts of da role of women being marginalized in Lukumi. That's never been da case. Yes, a lot of these pseudo feminists are proclaiming to be brujas so buzzwords such as patriarchy to them are very much so merely them lashing out against men. How marrying a babalawo (which has nothing to do with Lukumi to begin with) places a woman at da bottom is beyond me. IFA is practiced differently in in Cuba than in Niger in some aspects but not overall.

 

[Guvnor]

I don't know if you're phishing for answers or what by making broad, authoritarian statements but there's no facts of da role of women being marginalized in Lukumi. That's never been da case. Yes, a lot of these pseudo feminists are proclaiming to be brujas so buzzwords such as patriarchy to them are very much so merely them lashing out against men. How marrying a babalawo (which has nothing to do with Lukumi to begin with) places a woman at da bottom is beyond me. IFA is practiced differently in in Cuba than in Niger in some aspects but not overall.

First off, I know that IFA and Ocha are practiced differently in Cuba. From my understanding IFA is a male sect that are priest of Orunmila and Ocha are priest of other orishas that don't read with IFA and palm nuts but with cowrie shells.

Secondly, I said that was to make the long story short but let me break it down even further. You see when Lucumi first came to Cuba by way of slavery there were not a lot of babalawo's who came here, this led to the Ocha side being invented and oriates doing things to keep the tradition going but by the 1900s IFA became more prominent, women like Moncerrate Gonzalez as an example who were very important and once held roles as oriates and leaders in the religion prior to this time are a very big part of Lucumi's history and preserving it. Once the 1900s hit you seen more women begin to take up traditional gender roles like cooking and cleaning and the babalwo's were seen culturally as having more power to the point where women aimed at trying to become an apetbi(basically a wife of the babalwo who preforms certain duties though you know there is more to it then that). They wanted to marry the babalawos and even certain female oriates lost their position in order to marry a babalawo due to it having a higher status culturally which is how they lost their power over time in the religion. Reason being they had to give up the oriate status if they marry a babalawo. To this day there are very little female oriates which was not always the case and people in the religion perpetuate lies such as that women can not be oriates, some say this is because they menstruate which is a cultural ideal that isn't true but women don't challenge this so there is marginalization in that sense if you ask me whether it's all on purpose or the result of a cultural shift is something I will have to look into more, but it's clear there are more leaders that are males(oriates) making things one-sided.

People who are not part of the religion believe that the babalwos are the highest priest of the religion and leaders when it's not true, the Oriates who lead ocha houses are important high priest to their houses and leaders too. You also have initiated babalwos who make the argument to find someone's true Ori only IFA can be used since it's from orunmila and not Ocha and the shells, these are arguments I've seen with my own eyes, these Ocha vs IFA arguments.

Furthermore, I've see in the Nigerian tradition people question the Iyanifa title which is a female priest/babalawo that some say is a new invention, others argue against this.

Third you meant Nigeria and not Niger Pow...pow..


Lastly let me make something clear again, What I post is not authoritarian, I am not, I am not! an initiate of lucumi or IFA yet. I might have to put that in all my post but I said it before and will repeat it if need be. I don't fish for information because that is not my style and if I don't know something I will ask questions. Everything I post is what I learned from others who have been initiated for many years in these traditions or from books I read by well respected scholars like John Mason. You as an initiate can teach me a lot and I'm open to learning so you don't have to play 21 questions with me. If you see something I said that is false then correct me and I say that respectfully.

 

[$cam-U-Well_Jack$on]

First off, I know that IFA and Ocha are practiced differently in Cuba. From my understanding IFA is a male sect that are priest of Orunmila and Ocha are priest of other orishas that don't read with IFA and palm nuts but with cowrie shells.

Secondly, I said that was to make the long story short but let me break it down even further. You see when Lucumi first came to Cuba by way of slavery there were not a lot of babalawo's who came here, this led to the Ocha side being invented and oriates doing things to keep the tradition going but by the 1900s IFA became more prominent, women like Moncerrate Gonzalez as an example who were very important and once held roles as oriates and leaders in the religion prior to this time are a very big part of Lucumi's history and preserving it. Once the 1900s hit you seen more women begin to take up traditional gender roles like cooking and cleaning and the babalwo's were seen culturally as having more power to the point where women aimed at trying to become an apetbi(basically a wife of the babalwo who preforms certain duties though you know there is more to it then that). They wanted to marry the babalawos and even certain female oriates lost their position in order to marry a babalawo due to it having a higher status culturally which is how they lost their power over time in the religion. Reason being they had to give up the oriate status if they marry a babalawo. To this day there are very little female oriates which was not always the case and people in the religion perpetuate lies such as that women can not be oriates, some say this is because they menstruate which is a cultural ideal that isn't true but women don't challenge this so there is marginalization in that sense if you ask me whether it's all on purpose or the result of a cultural shift is something I will have to look into more, but it's clear there are more leaders that are males(oriates) making things one-sided.

People who are not part of the religion believe that the babalwos are the highest priest of the religion and leaders when it's not true, the Oriates who lead ocha houses are important high priest to their houses and leaders too. You also have initiated babalwos who make the argument to find someone's true Ori only IFA can be used since it's from orunmila and not Ocha and the shells, these are arguments I've seen with my own eyes, these Ocha vs IFA arguments.

Furthermore, I've see in the Nigerian tradition people question the Iyanifa title which is a female priest/babalawo that some say is a new invention, others argue against this.

Third you meant Nigeria and not Niger Pow...pow..


Lastly let me make something clear again, What I post is not authoritarian, I am not, I am not! an initiate of lucumi or IFA yet. I might have to put that in all my post but I said it before and will repeat it if need be. I don't fish for information because that is not my style and if I don't know something I will ask questions. Everything I post is what I learned from others who have been initiated for many years in these traditions or from books I read by well respected scholars like John Mason. You as an initiate can teach me a lot and I'm open to learning so you don't have to play 21 questions with me. If you see something I said that is false then correct me and I say that respectfully.

Leave those books alone is what I'll tell you. They'll only lead to confusion. Often times, they're authored by those who haven't been initiated and use informants for the information that they gather, informants who often feed them misdirection, half truths and outright lies. In Nigeria, there's never been a restriction on women being babalawos, that's purely Cuban. But then again, in either place, everything is for sale including spirituality. I didn't need the history lesson, bruh. There will always be arguments due to da fact that babalawos think that they're da authority on everything which simply isn't da case. In IFA, perhaps, yes. A lot of this shyt feeds egotistical and narcissistic personalities and some of these muthafukkas are simply predatory so don't be fooled. Tradition is tradition but people are and will always be people. I see it often. You can practice whatever and still be a rotten muthafukka.

 

[Guvnor]

Leave those books alone is what I'll tell you. They'll only lead to confusion. Often times, they're authored by those who haven't been initiated and use informants for the information that they gather, informants who often feed them misdirection, half truths and outright lies. In Nigeria, there's never been a restriction on women being babalawos, that's purely Cuban. But then again, in either place, everything is for sale including spirituality. I didn't need the history lesson, bruh. There will always be arguments due to da fact that babalawos think that they're da authority on everything which simply isn't da case. In IFA, perhaps, yes. A lot of this shyt feeds egotistical and narcissistic personalities and some of these muthafukkas are simply predatory so don't be fooled. Tradition is tradition but people are and will always be people. I see it often. You can practice whatever and still be a rotten muthafukka.

I hear you but how else am I supposed to learn about Lucumi? I read from respected scholars like John Mason and Ochani Lele who are initiated and give extensive histories, do research and go in depth on the different stories and odu's. I stay away from Philip Newmark who I hear a lot of negative things about and random authors. I only check out works from authors who I have been referred to or hear good things about. Also you're not the first person I heard speak on cuban IFA in this way but from what I have heard it was very influential in cuba and it's part of why you don't see many women oriates even today as I broke down.

I hear what your saying on people being people as well man, that's real talk.

 

[BigMan]

any info on kumina would be appreciated

also, just found there's a yoruba tradition in St. Lucia known as Kele

 

[$cam-U-Well_Jack$on]

I hear you but how else am I supposed to learn about Lucumi?

I reckon you make a point. Look at it like this, on one hand, reading helps one devise questions. On the other, say you meet those that becomes your godparents, what you've read may undermine what's being taught to you which can lead to confusion and in that confusion, you'll then have to relearn what it is that you've read. Make no mistake about it though, a lot of these muthafukkas, well, I'll say some, some of these individuals think that their way and only their way is right and law of da land which is never true. There's a lot of folks who take on cult like mentalities in which if one isn't able to think for yourself, can be dangerous for one's growth and pursuit of knowledge.

 

[Guvnor]

@$cam-U-Well_Jack$on Just curious, how much does Palo initiation cost? I hear it's cheaper then lucumi.