88m3
Fast Money & Foreign Objects
That's the only thing that matters.
Tamir Rice case (12yo boy shot while carrying BB gun) - FULL VID RELEASED on 01/08/15
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That's the only thing that matters.
The video hasn't been released yet and the authorities are being non-committal with whether they will release it at all.
The parents of the dead kid were offered the video to view but declined and instead allowed their lawyer to view it.
If an armed killer can be apprehended peacefully then a 12 year old with a toy gun should get that same right.
I could see if he pointed the gun or threatened the police. He didn't. I don't think its wise to give police officers the choice of life or death at the point these officers chose it.
Brown_Pride
All Star
not really the death of the 12 year old matters as well
i'm not saying there aren't potentially other ways to deal with these types of situations, just that I understand how they responded and why they responded this way. Cops are charged with dealing with shytty people day in and day out seeing the very worst society has to offer, we pay them for that, we don't expect them to get shot doing that, its completely unreasonable. Given the crap we ask them to deal with is it really to much to NOT reach for shyt? To NOT carry a gun around with you and when stopped go for it? To teach your kid NOT to play around with a BB gun, which in Arizona (on of the loosest gun control states) we have laws saying you have to be 16 to use one without supervision and have to be 18 to use the handgun versions solo.
100 times out of 100 i would tell a cop to place his safety as priority #1 in these types of situations...i think the tricky part is that cops are human and the "threat level" is going to vary from each person...
again though, no winners here and the over reach and implications being draw around the net and these boards to an extent is a little bit of an over reach. The reason I don't like that is because when real offensive shyt like in ferguson happens people try to site examples like these and then they lump "real" shyt with fake shyt and say it's all fake.
rip to that little kid.
As much power as we give them, I don't think its unreasonable to expect them to do a better job at identifying imminent danger before using deadly force.
You say it doesn't matter, but it seems police do a better job at recognizing danger depending on the persons skin color. Take that for what you will.
I disagree. These people signed up for this job, they are sworn to protect and serve. Plenty of cops put their life on the line daily to help others. This cop could have granted the 12 year old a couple more seconds to make sure he was a threat. That would have been protecting a life, which is what I thought police were supposed to do.
People are sick and tired of the same story. If this was something that didn't happen often then people wouldn't be so quick to jump to those conclusions. Just a couple months ago not too far from here a young black man was shot for holding a toy gun in Walmart, and we have definite video proof that both the 911 caller and the police lied about what happened and NO ONE was held accountable. So I think you can understand people's outrage.again though, no winners here and the over reach and implications being draw around the net and these boards to an extent is a little bit of an over reach. The reason I don't like that is because when real offensive shyt like in ferguson happens people try to site examples like these and then they lump "real" shyt with fake shyt and say it's all fake.
88m3
Fast Money & Foreign Objects
Yes, who wouldn't be dead if whites didn't view minorities as being subhuman.
Are you being purposefully obtuse? I'm offended.
Brown_Pride
All Star
there's no way for you to know if they are or aren't doing a good job at this....unless you have one then please show it. I asked the question earlier, not because I know but because I think it might help put this in perspective, "How often do police pull guns and NOT shoot someone?" I venture a guess that cops don't kill as often as we might think when compared to the number of times they are put in a situation where they COULD handle things incorrectly...I completely admit i might be 100% wrong on this and if so then yeah I'd change my tune.
It matters when it matters other times it doesn't. I'm saying I don't know nor have I been presented with enough information to make an informed decision about THIS particular case. White cop shoots black person doesn't always have to be about race.
They did sign up for the job, and perhaps they could have granted more time, I don't know I wasn't there maybe the video will be a little more decisive. Until then i'm commenting on what I know.
Again "often" is hard to determine when you're not looking at the full set of data. What would an acceptable amount of deaths like this be? 1/100? 1/1000? Zero?
I'm not saying there are no issues with the police and their shoot first ask questions later policy. I also know cops can be corrupt as fuk, I also know not all cops are evil so I'm reluctant to group so many people up under one umbrella.
Brown_Pride
All Star
? HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS ?
You're reaching right now and it's offensive....unless you're wearing your troll hat right now...i can't tell.
88m3
Fast Money & Foreign Objects
There have been studies done that show law enforcement are more apt to use deadly force on people of color as opposed to whites.
It's been discussed regularly on this forum.
You implied that I don't care that a child died...
Brown_Pride
All Star
I said
you said
I wasnt implying anything just working ith what you gave me.
And about the studies. I know them, i've seen them, that isn't an indictment on this case until more evidence comes out. At this point most of the reactions to this are purely reactionary and emotion based. IF it pans out dude was a racist abuser of power then Ill be right there. But given what i do know at this point the cop reacted as i'd expect a cop to react to someone reaching for a gun.
Also consider the argument. Cops are more likely to use deadly force on color vs white. The argument isn't that cops use deadly force its that they use it more on people of color leaving an acceptable response to this concern being the death of more white people by cops....that's inherently wrong. Let me ask you if cops all of a sudden increased their kill rates but only towards white people to bring it even with that of colored folk would you be ok with their use of force?
Dead unarmed/nonviolent citizens is all the proof I need.
The fact that some cops can have restraint in these situations, proves that we should hold all cops to that standard. Not make excuses for them when they don't.
It matters in the context of why people are upset at this particular case. You're right there's no way to prove it in this particular case, but once a pattern is apparent, you can't stop people from making the comparison. There was no evidence to police that this child was dangerous, yet you were totally ok with them making that determination based on other events.
You know there's 12 year old dead for having a toy gun. Isn't that enough to at least question policing practices?
Acceptable deaths of unarmed/unthreatening citizens at the hands of law enforcement in a free country should be absolutely zero.
@Brown_Pride
Since we're talking about rates and data sets, what is the rate for 12 year old preteens killing police officers in this country? In my adult life, I cant remember hearing about one case like that, although I could be wrong. If the cop shot an adult....Okay, we need more info. But killing a child who didnt even have a real weapon is an indefensible act from law enforcement. You cant shrug this off.
In order to believe the cop's story that a 12 year old was an imminent threat, we have to shift from the officer and examine the potential motivations of the child, because the child is now dead and can no longer defend himself.
So either the child: A) Was ready to go toes with a police officer in a shootout armed with only a BB gun. B) He was suicidal, and wanted a death by cop. C) He was so mischievous that he wanted to continue his pranking and intimidating, even with a cop who had a loaded weapon pointed at him.
Neither of these scenarios are likely. Whats more likely is that this was a killing from a inexperienced, poorly trained bad cop, who was probably informed by the racist tradition of not distinguishing black children from grown adults. As a trained officer, he has to know that pulling a gun on a child is going to excite the youngster and induce panic. Again, the officer was not responding to shots fired, and once he arrived he HAS to assess the situation and its likely and inherent dangers. It was just a child who was playing around man. You cant kill him unless its the last resort...not because you got "spooked".
Since we're talking about rates and data sets, what is the rate for 12 year old preteens killing police officers in this country? In my adult life, I cant remember hearing about one case like that, although I could be wrong. If the cop shot an adult....Okay, we need more info. But killing a child who didnt even have a real weapon is an indefensible act from law enforcement. You cant shrug this off.
In order to believe the cop's story that a 12 year old was an imminent threat, we have to shift from the officer and examine the potential motivations of the child, because the child is now dead and can no longer defend himself.
So either the child: A) Was ready to go toes with a police officer in a shootout armed with only a BB gun. B) He was suicidal, and wanted a death by cop. C) He was so mischievous that he wanted to continue his pranking and intimidating, even with a cop who had a loaded weapon pointed at him.
Neither of these scenarios are likely. Whats more likely is that this was a killing from a inexperienced, poorly trained bad cop, who was probably informed by the racist tradition of not distinguishing black children from grown adults. As a trained officer, he has to know that pulling a gun on a child is going to excite the youngster and induce panic. Again, the officer was not responding to shots fired, and once he arrived he HAS to assess the situation and its likely and inherent dangers. It was just a child who was playing around man. You cant kill him unless its the last resort...not because you got "spooked".
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People are outraged at the assumption that the cops knew the gun was a fake. That's something @Brown_Pride was getting to. We don't have all the info, and we also don't know what the cops knew heading into the situation. People are trying to apply logic to a situation where logic isn't really applicable. Again, the cops SHOULD be better equipped to deal with situations such as these, however humans are humans. Just like I said, this is all based on the assumption that the cops knew the gun was a fake.
@No_bammer_weed just because there's no precedence of a 12 year old shooting a cop doesn't mean that it can't happen or isn't likely to happen. In an age where teenagers have committed murders, it isn't a stretch of the imagination to say that it is possible.
There's lots of people to blame here, but to put it all on the cops without all of the information present is stupid.
@No_bammer_weed just because there's no precedence of a 12 year old shooting a cop doesn't mean that it can't happen or isn't likely to happen. In an age where teenagers have committed murders, it isn't a stretch of the imagination to say that it is possible.
There's lots of people to blame here, but to put it all on the cops without all of the information present is stupid.
Not replying to the content of your post but what convinces you that those scenarios aren't likely ? And that they are the only ones possible ?
We do know what the cops knew leading to the situation. The 911 caller said it was a kid and it was probably a toy, there was also no shots fired or threats of violence from the victim.
And Cops are supposed to be trained profesionals. Humans are humans is no excuse. If I fukk up at my job I can't look at my boss and go "humans are humans
"The adults paid and trained to severe and protect should be blamed when they fail to do so. Not the 12 year old kid.