Steph Curry right now is better than Kobe ever was
- Thread starter SpursFanSinceNovember2017
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Foxmulder
Superstar
You couldn’t have watched the game then posted this.
You know how many layups and open threes other players got because the focus was on Steph?
Foxmulder
Superstar
Another one.But what about his "gravity"?
Saying that Magic was "the man" on all of his teams is a strange way of framing it given he played with a consensus top-5 player of all-time (for all of his championships), and whom many believe is the GOAT, or in some capacity recognize him as the most decorated player in basketball history. This tells me from the jump that despite your disclaimer of saying you have no agenda, you do have one here. I can only imagine the narrative you'd be spinning if Steph played with someone of Cap's status for all of his titles.
Magic was regularly tasked with defending the weakest offensive player, because more often than not he wasn't capable of defending the opposing PG due to them being too quick and shifty for him (Riley even spoke about hiding Magic on the defensive end because of his limitations). He also grew up in an era where teams didn't seek out players to abuse them, as it was more traditional matchup basketball, and not heavy PnR-switches centered around targeting the least strongest defensive link in the lineup.
And here we go - the good ole Steph only does one thing narrative again.
Reducing his game down to only doing one thing is completely disrespectful of his overall game (he has one of the most complete offensive skillsets in history), and the impact/effect that the "one thing" has on the game - creates more open shots for his teammates than anyone else to ever play the game. The entire belief of Draymond being a bum if he were on any other team only exists because the presence of Steph. No other PG in existence would allow Draymond to have the role and success he's had on the offensive end. And that goes for nearly every single player that has had the privilege of playing alongside Steph.
Kyrie is the most skilled player ever, and has abused every and any player that he's come up against, so to use that against Steph is odd, to say the least.
Now I see the type of person I'm dealing with.
I know you're only a new cat on this board, but I've debunked this tired narrative many a time. You can't use assists in this manner to scale exactly how many points a player is generating for his team. Assists only tell you who makes the final pass, they don't tell you who actually has the most impact in the generation of a field goal. Magic monopolized the ball, as that was typically the nature of his position in the '80s, where everyone stuck to traditional roles, so like any player who has their hands on the ball for the majority of the time, they're naturally going to accumulate surface stats, as opposed to someone like Steph who sacrifices his touches/time of possession for the benefit of the team (allowing players like Draymond to have influence and purpose in the offense, otherwise, he'd be standing around on the offensive end not doing a whole lot given his limited skillset). The Warriors offense is all about passing up a good shot opportunity for an even better one, and the guy getting the assist is merely playing to the system's principles, and not always the guy who actually creates the shot opportunity.
Ask yourself, what would Draymond be doing on offense where Magic was the guy, where he wouldn't get ample space to operate in and wouldn't be allowed to be a secondary playmaker?
Steph could just as easily play in a heliocentric system where he racks up the assists numbers, but the team's offense wouldn't be better off because of it. You say Magic ran one of the most potent offenses the league has ever seen, well, Steph is the nucleus of an offense that completely eclipses whatever ABC-123 transition-heavy offense the Lakers were running in the 80s (Magic's assists were a diet of getting out on the break, so despite him being one of the greatest passers, his actual assist volume was running the floor and taking advantage of scrambled defenses).
The fact that you believe that individual assists = the creation of field goals tells me you don't understand the Warriors offense, at all. Steph initiating the actions, whether that be directly with the ball in his hands or off-the-ball, where he not only drags multiple defenders into his orbit, but manipulates entire defensive schemes allows his teammates to basically play 4v3/4v2 on nearly every possession. No player in history creates more easy scoring opportunities for those alongside him than Steph does. Box score assists will not tell you this. The ball movement and chemistry that the Warriors have that gives them a greater sense of belonging, which raises their ability, allows them to expand on their skillset, which turns them into greater players, is all because of Steph. You think it's a coincidence that Wiggins went from being a bust and was perceived as an empty-stat, inefficient player, to now on GS, where his scoring efficiency went from the mid-40s in eFG% to now the mid-50s, and is playing with greater belief and being the best version of himself? You think it's a coincidence that nearly every player that goes to GS to play alongside Steph just so happens to play the best ball of their respective careers? You think it's a coincidence that players just happen to drastically improve their shooting/scoring efficiency alongside him?
That's the power of Steph. That's how he sacrifices himself to allow those around him to be the best versions of themselves, by harnessing his ability to open up the floor for his teammates. You think any other superstar in NBA history would willing come up off the ball, set off-ball screens, and openly be used as a distraction so their teammates could eat, without getting a surface stat credit?
Again, why bring up Klay defending the other team's best guard, when Magic rarely ever defending the best guard and/or perimeter threat? Not to mention, in today's climate you'll rarely see premier guards defending one another on the regular as it's not the most practical way of balancing/conserving energy of your star player, given the heightened activity and ground they need to cover on the defensive end. Why do you continue to put all this emphasis on what Steph lacks defensively when Magic was the same? It's the equivalent of trying to clown John Wall's shooting ability in an comparison-argument about Rondo.
This is patently ridiculous.
The Warriors squad last season were essentially comprised of fringe NBA talent. When they made their run in the second half of the season, where they had one of the better records in the league, they had a rotation which included Bazemore, JTA, Paschall, Mulder, Looney, a raw Poole, DLee etc. Steph was carrying a team with players that wouldn't crack the rotation of the majority of playoff teams, let alone be key players. How could you possibly use Klay's absence where the Warriors couldn't just go out and replace his salary for matched talent, against Steph?
Who is effective in situations where their team can't support them properly?
Every single player in the all-time top-10 had seasons where their respective teams didn't do anything because of a lack of talent/personnel. Your mans Bron has missed the playoffs for TWO separate seasons since moving to the Lakers. Kareem missed the playoffs during his prime. Kobe missed the playoffs during his prime.
Furthermore, Klay is a shell of his former self and has been terribly inconsistent all throughout these playoffs (even more so than he usually is), which is to be expected given he's been out of the game for two seasons, so to use him as a crux that Steph needed to get back to the Finals is even more wild. You're completely overvaluing Klay's value to Steph's success, especially in the context of what has happened this season. Who isn't as scary if they're not surrounded by talent?
You're out here referencing Wiggins, Poole, Livingston, Iggy, Dray etc, players of whom are either perceived to be role players or non-star players, and you're really using that against Steph? Not actual players on the level of a Kyrie, Cap, AD etc, who're elite offensive players and considered to be one of the best, if not the best at their respective positions (in Cap's case, the best ever at his position), but players that are role players, by nature.
Steph is on the verge of having four championships, where he's been the leader of every single one - Finals MVPs be damned. The Warriors' success is because of him. There's a reason why KD hasn't achieved anything outside of GS (and got swept by the team that Steph is currently dominating), and why Iggy is basically a mentor at this stage of his career, while Steph is still leading this team to championship glory. He's had no Cap on every single one of his championship runs (what has Magic achieved without one of the top-5 players of all-time?). He's won with different iterations of players (where he's had to carry a declining Dray and limited Klay), with different roster makeups (2015 is completely different to what he's surrounded with in 2022). He's one of the greatest scorers, ever (not just meeting this arbitrary mark of 20 ppg). He creates more easy/open scoring opportunities for his team than anyone, ever. He's battled all-time great players, all of whom are bigger and more athletic, and conquered them with his skill.
The fact you admit that Worthy, Cooper and Cap were all capable of scoring 30, when Steph never had that amount of offensive talent at his disposal for all his championship runs only bleeds out your own argument.
The fact that you believe his game is "one dimensional" tells me one of the two things: you either are not versed enough in hoops or you have an agenda to uphold, which isn't reflective of reality.
Until next time - do better.
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It's 2022 and still nxggas don't understand how Steph opens up the floor for his teammates -- resorting to pointing out his lack of assists. Too many damn folks been brainwashed by box score stats that they're incapable of acknowledging what their eyes are showing them.
There's no context to these statistics. The NBA Finals Kobe played in and the ones Steph has played in aren't really comparable either given the prioritization of defense and post play in the 2000's.
The 2004 Finals were played at a pace of 83.4. The average score was 91-82. In 2010, the pace was 87 with an average score of 100-91. In 2016, the pace was 92 and average score was 100-100. The 2022 Finals are at a pace of 95 and an average score of 105-103. Naturally, the higher paced games will bring higher statistics.
However, if you want to make a case that Steph was integral as the #1 in more championships than Kobe, I can somewhat understand that argument.
But this one? Very flawed.
Nobody seriously considers Kareem the GOAT, let's not pretend like there is a real push for this. Those are people with an *actual* agenda, one to take away from one Michael Jeffrey Jordan, sometimes in a roundabout way of arguing for Bron. Anyone who actually watched those Lakers will tell you that Magic was the better player and that Magic was far more versatile than Kareem.
Kareem had an unstoppable shot; Magic was unstoppable everywhere else.
What is it then?
I haven't promoted a single player over another. I have been open about my LeBron fandom from day one; stating that Curry is not on the same level as Magic is an argument for LeBron? How? I'm not putting the pieces together, help me out.
No he wasn't; Magic guarded *taller* players, because the shorter point guards were too quick for him. This is not the same as being a *bad* defender, like Steph is. Magic was an average defender, nothing to write home about, but nothing to exploit either. He was damn near 7 foot tall-- of course smaller, quicker guards will give him trouble. That's just physics.
For a career, Magic had a defensive rating of 104, if memory serves. That would be good enough for THIRD PLACE THIS SEASON
Source: NBA Defensive Rating Leaders 2021-2022 | StatMuse.
Steph Curry has gotten markedly better on defense, but he STILL cannot guard ANYONE in the NBA. Steve Kerr is on the record admitting they hid Steph Curry on defense because he has trouble guarding at the NBA level.
Magic was average; Steph is so bad his team actually schemes for him to guard the weakest player.
There is a reason it's the "good ole" argument, Gil-- it's a fact. Let's review:
- Steph is not giving you anything on the defensive end, routinely putting his team in 5v4 or 3v2 situations
- He's essentially an undersized shooting guard, so he's not (personally) getting the ball moving and his SF gets more assists than him
- He's not capable of legitimate Iso play, instead utilizing screens to get a large majority of his buckets
- He's an average rebounder for his position and height. I personally see this as a plus, as I love guards that can get you 5 boards.
What else is there to basketball that Curry is doing that I'm missing? PLEASE don't come at me with Kobe stan logic of intangibles, I want concrete evidence.
Everything you can list about Curry relates to his shooting ability. Every Curry stan/fan lists his impact to the game, but that, again, has everything to do with his shooting ability, not his court vision, his defensive impact, etc. Kobe also had that same "gravity" when it was winning time. Kobe was routinely double and triple teamed because of his perceived clutch ability.
Dwight Howard
Superstar
Nah yall gonna stop this gravity bs every time dude gets outplayed by a teammate, shyt is weak as hell. Like dude shot like shyt last night and GS was carried by wiggins and you have dudes trying to credit steph as if the majority of wiggins buckets weren't his own doing. He was isolating and beating his man all night but somehow that's due to steph. Nah fukk outta here. I also recall the warriors building their lead with steph on the bench in the 4th.You couldn’t have watched the game then posted this.
But you see, I can.
Take Magic's lowest PPG (17) and his career average of 11 assists. The NBA in the 80s wasn't shooting threes in any real way, as it had just been implemented when Magic was drafted.
So this means Magic was generating about 22 points of offense just from passing. Add that to his lowest PPG total, and you get 39 points of offense at its LOWEST.
Then you take Magic's highest output (24PPG) and do that same thing, and you get 46 PPG at its lowest. These are conservative estimates on my part, as we're taking Magic's average and putting it against the lowest possible outcomes.
Oh I know, he would be doing nothing.
Alright, that's a bit of hyperbole, but my point is Magic takes care of the ball, much in the same way LeBron does. If LeBron played with Draymond, there would be a conflict, as Dray wouldn't touch the ball much if at all, especially regarding assists. Dray would be relegated to a screen and roll guy on offense, but I suspect Dray would still get decent assists to centers as Dray likes to screen/roll and on his roll pass to a cutting big. I've seen that play one too many times.
I knew you would take it there.
The Warriors offense is nothing new. It's an evolution of Greg Popovich's system, where everyone gets to touch the rock, except it's more potent for the Warriors because of Steph's shooting ability. Whereas Greg's system would get you a good look from mid-range and the occasional three, Steph never stops running around screens until he gets an open look from three or a big switches on him and he drives right past them.
Let's not do this, I've watched and analyzed the Warriors for the past 7 years, being a LeBron fan.
Lol. The Warriors' roster is half identical this year to what it was last year.
Over half of their roster (8 players) is the same, with their key guys (Steph, Dray, Poole, Wiggins) being available this year and last year. Rotations were worse, but that wasn't the point I was making.
Stating their rotations were worse is reiterating what I said-- Klay was out, therefore the Warriors had to improvise. I am not claiming the 2021 Warriors were the same as today's. We are saying the same thing, and you are somehow trying to spin it as I'm saying something different because you want to argue with me.
That Warrior team was missing a key cog to its offense-- Thompson. Without him, THIS Warrior team would not be in the Finals. Thompson's role is a backup Steph-- he shoots BARELY worse than Steph, so this doesn't allow teams to comfortably double and key in on Curry.
Without Klay, the Warriors lose their best perimeter defender, the second (or third or fourth) greatest shooter of all time and a guy that allows Steph to play far more free. Just that one guy being out is HUGE for Golden State, one of the main reasons they lost the Finals to the Raptors. Even losing Durant, if Klay was available, the Raps lose that series.
I'm simply making the case that those guys support Steph in an unprecedented way; the Warriors entire offense revolves around getting Steph his shot and teams have a hard time accounting for that.
Steph is unique in that you basically have to guard him for 90 feet because his range is "gym". The Warriors exploit this by plugging in guys that do nothing but look for Steph, set screens for Steph, and take advantage of teams trying to guard Steph. His teammates have no ego, and they WANT Steph to be the guy. They even hide him on defense, which has the added effect of keeping him fresh on offense.
Not even the Bulls did this for Jordan. My point is Steph without this level of support is just another NBA shooter. I'm sorry you don't like this, but it is what it is.
Steph had 8 assists, not 3. He was opening the floor all night for this team with the attention he was receiving. Even if hes not hitting shots, which is super rare considering hes the undisputed GOAT shooter, the attention he demands creates space for his teams offense.
Today I'm learning in this thread that the only thing Steph can do is shoot the ball
I have Magic ahead of him but it's really close honestly.
First of all, the claim is that he's one-dimensional. That isn't to say he can't do other things, it is just an objective statement based on how he chooses to play the game. However, you're more than welcome to try to refute the point with any kind of evidence.
Here's mine: Stephen Curry 2021-22 Shooting | Basketball-Reference.com
Just from this year alone, his shooting stats tell you out of 1200 FGs, 968 (NINE HUNDRED SIXTY EIGHT) of them have been threes.
Not long twos, not midrange. Nine hundred and sixty-eight shots out of 1200 have been threes.
I can't believe people are in here trying to pretend like he really does anything else with any kind of regularity.
Dwight Howard
Superstar
Same can be said for damn near any superstar yet no one has ever given a weak performance a pass because of that. LeBron has made a career out of creating offense for himself and others playing Bron ball yet I've never seen his weak performances excused by his "gravity". Same can be said for Harden, he made PJ Tucker a household name based off his gravity and had other mediocre players playing well-above their average due to the open shots they were getting. Yet I heard nothing about this when he was dropping weak performances.
How am I excusing anything? I was simply correcting someone peddling inaccurate stats and acting like Curry can only impact the game when hes hitting 3's, which is obviously false