So, when are we going to realize that Obama isn't a Civil Rights leader

[NYC Rebel]

Number 1, this is vintage Reb. You continue to talk around what I said instead of at what I said. Really read what I said and you'll notice that there's nothing unreasonable about it. For some odd reason you're trying to equate me with the OP and the first 3 posters in here, when I just straight up said that ilk is wrong and part of the problem. You know what I'm talking about, but in tested Reb fashion you prefer to argue your talking points and stick to your guns then actually argue what your detractor is saying. So let me reiterate this shyt in bold and underline it for you and maybe you'll under better.

You cannot take the statistics that show that poor black people, even if we take them as true, vote more than middle class people to then extrapolate that middle class black people are the most ardent Obama supporters. Your data proves one group votes more than the other, but you have failed to provide accompanying data to prove that middle class blacks are then also the biggest supporters of Obama. It is possible, but you have yet to provide the data to show that he has a higher approval rating among middle class black americans than he does among poor black americans. Apparently, you think that we're just supposed to take your word for something that is not conventional wisdom. LASTLY, your hyperbole about 500 dollar dinners makes your entire argument seem sophomoric, petty and is overall hyperbole. You're getting @ me, a guy who argues for poor people on this board as much as anyone and gets told he's making excuses for them to make whatever point you believe it is your making. In the midst of that you somehow decided that middle class people can afford 500 dollar dinners and that we're not talking about affluent people, which is an entirely different discussion. I must say, you're in rare form...so rare that you didn't even realize that I'm very nearly basically on your side.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Participation-Margins-Is-Race-Class/dp/3659303178]Amazon.com: Participation at the Margins: Is it Race or Class? (9783659303173): Zulema Blair: Books[/ame]

Like I said....this is the author whose findings lay claim to the low income black voter going out to vote for Obama moreso than middle to upper income folks.

One of the first things she did was restructure how "low income" was captured, breaking it down along the lines of the working poor, non-working poor, Poverty stricken, low income urban poor and low income rural poor. She also broke down how poverty is subjective to geography. After breaking down all of these differences, she then highlighted the increase of the black vote within those segments of class and showed how low income black voters have been increasingly coming to the polls since 1980 moreso than any group in the country.

I only have the PDF excerpts of her book. She really broke it down and I can't in any way articulate it in the manner she does.

 

[No1]

@BarNone



First of all reading this ... I'm not even sure which direction you're going in. Which promise did I deride Obama for not keeping? There are many but in this specific discussion I did not say anything about a promise... I was talking about the irrationality of Obama supporters, especially black ones, using the transitive property to delude themselves into think Obama has helped or will help them in anyway. And as far as drones, corporatism and civil liberties, your argument is that people don't care about them? Well if you look at what I said, I was satirizing the fact that people don't know or care about them it doesn't make them any less or more significant.

I know that Obama didn't promise anything in specific to the black community, hes too smart of a politician for that, but the fact remains he has done absolutely nothing for the increasing levels of black poverty and the rampant violence and incarceration which plagues and perpetuates this poverty, and whether it's Obama or Bush not doing anything, it's still disgusting.

But Obama does have policies specifically aimed at those incarcerated like job training programs and trying to connect them to employers while they're in so that they'll have a path to employment while they're out because no one hires them once then get out which leads to recidivism, etc. I would rather argue the merits of shyt like that, which he promised. I'm policy-wonkish like that, you see how I'm not in all those "OMG Fox News said this" threads. That's all noise. The bigger point is that, you critique a politician for what they said they would do, not what you envisioned they would do and too often your critiques seem irrational to any person with any sense of politics or the American climate. Essentially, you all cry about how all Obama does is talk, but you want him to just "talk" and waste political capital on shyt like incarceration just to make you feel that he has the back of black people when he doesn't have the votes anywhere close to getting anything done on that issue and it would effectively upset the rest of his agenda. If healthcare that you call a "republican plan" did that, and if he couldn't get a jobs act through, you expect him to be able to completely dismantle the prison industrial complex Like @LegendNas and others have said, the best you were going to get on something like that was him getting the ball rolling on it towards the end of his term, that's about it. That, and of course decriminalization of marijuana which I now have doubts about after I had some hope after Congress brought down that cocaine-crack disparity and allowed people to appeal their sentences.

But most importantly, and I don't get how you don't understand this. You're reaching a point where you're copying and pasting your general critiques into every argument. Half of the time, they have no basis in that argument except airing out your general grievances. The OP was talking about cats acting like Obama was supposed to do this and that for black people. Your "satire" included a bunch of issues (like always) that has shyt to do with black people. As far as drones go to most American people, and not just black people are "out of sight, out of mind." Americans never give a damn about anything else when they're hurting for jobs and you know that. I'm not even saying you're completely wrong. A bunch of it is just completely off-topic and part of what I referred to about these threads being counterproductive because they devolved into "generalized obama-detractors vs. blind ardent supporters." It's bad both ways.

 

[No1]

Amazon.com: Participation at the Margins: Is it Race or Class? (9783659303173): Zulema Blair: Books

Like I said....this is the author whose findings lay claim to the low income black voter going out to vote for Obama moreso than middle to upper income folks.

One of the first things she did was restructure how "low income" was captured, breaking it down along the lines of the working poor, non-working poor, Poverty stricken, low income urban poor and low income rural poor. She also broke down how poverty is subjective to geography. After breaking down all of these differences, she then highlighted the increase of the black vote within those segments of class and showed how low income black voters have been increasingly coming to the polls since 1980 moreso than any group in the country.

I only have the PDF excerpts of her book. She really broke it down and I can't in any way articulate it in the manner she does.

BRO, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm taking your facts as a given, without researching them, because I trust you personally. I said you go too far in stating that middle class blacks are more ardent obama supporters than low class black people without supporting that. That's basically it. Somehow you surmised that I'm talking down to lower class black people and you tried to equate me with the Obama bandwagon those first 3 posters in here were on.

 

[NYC Rebel]

BRO, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm taking your facts as a given, without researching them, because I trust you personally. I said you go too far in stating that middle class blacks are more ardent obama supporters than low class black people without supporting that. That's basically it. Somehow you surmised that I'm talking down to lower class black people and you tried to equate me with the Obama bandwagon those first 3 posters in here were on.

Got you.

 

[Broke Wave]

But Obama does have policies specifically aimed at those incarcerated like job training programs and trying to connect them to employers while they're in so that they'll have a path to employment while they're out because no one hires them once then get out which leads to recidivism, etc. I would rather argue the merits of shyt like that, which he promised. I'm policy-wonkish like that, you see how I'm not in all those "OMG Fox News said this" threads. That's all noise. The bigger point is that, you critique a politician for what they said they would do, not what you envisioned they would do and too often your critiques seem irrational to any person with any sense of politics or the American climate. Essentially, you all cry about how all Obama does is talk, but you want him to just "talk" and waste political capital on shyt like incarceration just to make you feel that he has the back of black people when he doesn't have the votes anywhere close to getting anything done on that issue and it would effectively upset the rest of his agenda. If healthcare that you call a "republican plan" did that, and if he couldn't get a jobs act through, you expect him to be able to completely dismantle the prison industrial complex Like @LegendNas and others have said, the best you were going to get on something like that was him getting the ball rolling on it towards the end of his term, that's about it. That, and of course decriminalization of marijuana which I now have doubts about after I had some hope after Congress brought down that cocaine-crack disparity and allowed people to appeal their sentences.

But most importantly, and I don't get how you don't understand this. You're reaching a point where you're copying and pasting your general critiques into every argument. Half of the time, they have no basis in that argument except airing out your general grievances. The OP was talking about cats acting like Obama was supposed to do this and that for black people. Your "satire" included a bunch of issues (like always) that has shyt to do with black people. As far as drones go to most American people, and not just black people are "out of sight, out of mind." Americans never give a damn about anything else when they're hurting for jobs and you know that. I'm not even saying you're completely wrong. A bunch of it is just completely off-topic and part of what I referred to about these threads being counterproductive because they devolved into "generalized obama-detractors vs. blind ardent supporters." It's bad both ways.

About 80% of this is about me personally, Broke Wave... and about 10% is about yourself, and 10% is about the issue.

If you want to characterize my arguments one way or another that's fine. I will never in my life be a fan of Barack Obama. I do not like the way he has abused the constitution and been a corporate lap dog, 2 things you will not even deny yourself. But lets step away from the personal opinions and get to the meat, the facts.

IF we take incarceration in general to be the central point of discussion, we would be wandering away from my point, but we'll do this for the sake of discussion. I said the word incarceration in relation to black poverty, so Obama's Prison to Work program, although it does help African American prisoners, does not fit the criteria of solving the issue of mass incarceration, it only makes the situation of those already incarcerated more affable. It's like if President Bush increased funding to Prisons to make them safer... it does not address the root causes of this specific type of incarceration. A general increase in the standard of living for inmates and a general increase in their career prospects is not what I was alluding to. Furthermore, the program has not even been so widely instituted so it constitutes another failure by Obama in my view.
PolitiFact | The Obameter: Increase minority access to capital

Staying on the issue of incarceration, President Obama has given himself the power to incarcerate without a warrant American Citizens indefinitely, a grossly unconstitutional power grab. He has also continued the decades long war on drugs, which has unjustly incarcerated millions, especially minorities and especially African Americans. Finally on incarceration, he has yet to incarcerate a single banker for the fraud which occurred during the financial meltdown and has even failed to thoroughly investigate these frauds, siting "financial stability" through his justice department.

Obama has acutally GROWN prisons, and chooses to spend MORE on incarceration.

Obama Budget: Grow Prisons and Keep Gitmo | Mother Jones

 

[DEAD7]

I don't know why you guys bother to defend something factually true.

You'd be surprise dhow often FACTS are in question.

 

[Street Knowledge]

Who's calling him a civil rights leader?

This

 

[Born2BKing]

About 80% of this is about me personally, Broke Wave... and about 10% is about yourself, and 10% is about the issue.

If you want to characterize my arguments one way or another that's fine. I will never in my life be a fan of Barack Obama. I do not like the way he has abused the constitution and been a corporate lap dog, 2 things you will not even deny yourself. But lets step away from the personal opinions and get to the meat, the facts.

IF we take incarceration in general to be the central point of discussion, we would be wandering away from my point, but we'll do this for the sake of discussion. I said the word incarceration in relation to black poverty, so Obama's Prison to Work program, although it does help African American prisoners, does not fit the criteria of solving the issue of mass incarceration, it only makes the situation of those already incarcerated more affable. It's like if President Bush increased funding to Prisons to make them safer... it does not address the root causes of this specific type of incarceration. A general increase in the standard of living for inmates and a general increase in their career prospects is not what I was alluding to. Furthermore, the program has not even been so widely instituted so it constitutes another failure by Obama in my view.
PolitiFact | The Obameter: Increase minority access to capital

Staying on the issue of incarceration, President Obama has given himself the power to incarcerate without a warrant American Citizens indefinitely, a grossly unconstitutional power grab. He has also continued the decades long war on drugs, which has unjustly incarcerated millions, especially minorities and especially African Americans. Finally on incarceration, he has yet to incarcerate a single banker for the fraud which occurred during the financial meltdown and has even failed to thoroughly investigate these frauds, siting "financial stability" through his justice department.

Obama has acutally GROWN prisons, and chooses to spend MORE on incarceration.

Obama Budget: Grow Prisons and Keep Gitmo | Mother Jones

Your opinion will never change and you will find a way to dispute anything positive someone says about Obama. This is my thing with people like you, yeah criticize the president but be objective and don't expect more out of the black man then other presidents. As a black person we always have to be the best at something to even be considered good. You got cacs saying Obama is the worst president ever just because he hasn't been the best. The premise of this thread came full circle because all of these posters in here wanting Obama to put black issues to the top of his list, even if they aren't hot button issues just because he is black. He should ignore all the other segments of the population with issues and concerns and move African Americans to the top of the list and why should he do that according to some of you? Because he is black as well. Hence why I said he is not a Civil Rights leader, he is president and he will only touch on Hot Button issues with mass support.

 

[bzb]

Never said they should I am not suggesting Obama push for laws that are fair for black people and unfair for everyone else, again you seem to be missing my point

the president can def put a stop to institutional racism

that was the point my previous comments were addressing. the president doesn't create laws and cannot create laws. whether race based or otherwise. not only that, but even if democrats proposed legislation aimed and helping out blacks it would be shot down by the republican controlled house before it even got to the president. and to be honest i don't believe we need anymore race based laws.

He has made some headway on sentencing guidelines but there is still a disproportionate amount of guilty verdicts handed to blacks vs others for similar crimes. That is tough to tackle but is something I would like to see him address.

the president doesn't determine sentencing guidelines and he cannot change them. further more the federal branch doesn't impact state sentencing guidelines.

i do agree the judicial system is biased against blacks and other minorities.

... I would like to see Obama work to equalize resources among schools, which is a problem that affects us

again, obama cannot affect how state taxes/funds are distributed among schools.

but as before, i do agree that lower income areas have dispoportionate funding compared to more affluent areas. that is more a function of how funds are being raised and distributed locally though.

Gentrification and displacement are an issue affecting us in inner cities, that would be something else I would like to see addressed.

same as before. not under presidential discretion. and as before i agree with your about how gentrification and displacement negatively affect black and lower income communities.

I can't lay out the specifics because I am not an expert on these issues, but I know these are things that affect us that Obama hasn't really prioritized.

this is why the discussion is necessary. the things you've brought up are not within obama's realm of power to legislate for or address. most of these are local issues that need to be addressed on the state or district level. that's why your vote for city council members, district representatives, governors, etc, matter.

also adds to the point i was making that the expectations for obama to change what's happening in black communities are misplaced. people think the president has the power to do all these things, but the reality is that he does not and cannot influence most issues at the state and city level.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

By your logic, no president can do anything, because they don't have the power to create laws. But history shows that presidents have pushed initiatives through that have become law. So the repeated insistence that "Obama doesn't have the power" is just not true. Just within the context of his presidency this is not true, he just pushed through one of the biggest healthcare initiatives in US history.

I mean if a president has no sway or influence over Congress, why even have the position? The three branches of govt keep each other in check, but time and time again they have demonstrated they can work together to get things done, even in this gridlocked political climate. So I don't buy that Obama can't do anything, he is doing a lot and can do more.

 

[bzb]

now you're missing the point. you and a few others expect obama to stop racism and help out black people more. i'm saying that is an unrealistic and unfair expectation to put on obama, and i laid out why. you mentioned some specifics and i showed why those specifics are not under his control. simple as that.

 

[Darts]

Some of y'all seem to prefer people who gives lip service and just 'talk the talk'...

I rather see a person that stays "silent" and 'walks the walk'

 

[razassin]

Im sorry to jump into the discussion so uninformed but im not readin 8 pages of pro and anti obama nikkaz arguin'....

I believe the man has his principles and deeply rooted political philosophy based on the principles of civil rights and equality of oportunities....

Its just that yall gotta be real... THIS IS THE UNITED STATES OF fukkIN AMERICA...

This is the machine, the world's largest market, the world's biggiest military, This is still the world's biggest international actor in a more multi-polar world nowadays...

You can't expect the system to change completely in 4, 8, 10... 20 years... It'd take a catastrophe for that to happen....

Apart from all our current problems (which we've always had)... This is a pretty stable democracy and our nations destiny has always been imperialistic...

I dont wanna go on.... But people go too hard on Obama askin a single man for the impossible...

 

[AV Dicey]

am an Obama stan, and I too have not read a lick of whatever's going on in this thread, but I'll throw my lot in with the Obama defenders, he may not be a civil rights leader, but he is the leader of these united states of america
i must say i'm slightly disappointed with the lack of debate on the woodward v whitehouse fukkery...why is Michelle off the hook in regards to policy geared towards african americans tho

 

[The Message]

Obama doesn't have an agenda for black folks......


....and we never presented him with one.