So My 8 Year Old Neice Tells me That Her School Gives Her Fluoride Pills. . .

OsO

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Well, this should dispel any doubt.......​


:childplease: that study doesn't make your point either. it doesn't say anything about water fluoridation not playing a significant role in excessive fluoride intake. it also doesn't say anything about other fluoride sources being the sole reason for excessive fluoride intake. so what exactly was the point of that post?

and where's the link?

not that it matters though, because the study still doesn't prove your point.


60% of the United States does not receive PROPERLY FLUORIDATED WATER and is in fact, receiving amounts far above the EPA range established.

You Lose.

show me the stat where it says 60% of the US population receives water fluoridated greater than .7ppm.

but do you realize if that were true, it only serves to support my original point that we need to stop water fluoridation because people are ingesting too much fluoride? if 60% of people are receiving too much fluoride wouldn't the logical and responsible solution be to lower the amount of fluoride people are ingesting?

lol you've hit an all-time low in mental ineptitude... now you're contradicting your own original stance with your own made-up statistics lol... truly pathetic.

The EPA set the upper range to 0.7 Mg/L in 2011 due to the amount of fluoride people are receiving from sources other than PROPERLY FLUORIDATED WATER.

lol so why would that help funkdoc? take a second and really think, stop reacting off emotion.

why would it help for the govt to lower the fluoride in the water if (according to you) the only threat of excessive fluoride is fluoride coming from other sources? that makes NO sense whatsoever.
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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LeyeT said:
that study doesn't make your point either. it doesn't say anything about water fluoridation not playing a significant role in excessive fluoride intake.

Read carefully from the previous post:

Fluoride levels in groundwater in the coterminous United States were mapped by the U.S. Geological Survey (see Figure 3-1). Some of the areas indicated in Figure 3-1 correspond to areas of aridity as shown in Figure 3-2 (McGinnies et al., 1968). In these areas drinking water consumption rates may be greater than average, and combined with the high levels of fluoride in groundwater, may contribute to higher than normal exposures to fluoride from private drinking water systems and more frequent exceedences of the SMCL. States that have reported MCL violations most frequently to the Safe Drinking Water Information System – Federal (SDWIS/FED) during the period from 1998 to 2006 are Arizona, Florida, Montana, New Mexico, Texas and Virginia. All states have some areas with high levels of geological fluoride.

60% of the United States is NOT fluoridated to EPA standards.

It plays a significant role......like your lack of reading comprehension.

Also:

CONCLUSIONS:
Enamel fluorosis in the nonfluoridated study sample was attributed to fluoride supplementation under the pre-1994 protocol and early toothbrushing behaviors. Enamel fluorosis in the optimally fluoridated study sample was attributed to early toothbrushing behaviors, inappropriate fluoride supplementation and the use of infant formula in the form of a powdered concentrate.

Improper dosage from other sources in fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas leading to fluorosis is confirmed by the study. There is NO indication that properly fluoridated community water played a role.

Why was the level changed?

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says dental fluorosis is highest among adolescents between the ages of 12 an 15. One reason for the increase in fluorosis: Americans now have access to fluoride from a variety of sources, including toothpaste, mouth rinses and prescription supplements, the Department of Health and Human Services says.

There is no study that states or proves that properly fluoridated water is the cause of fluorosis or any other health/cosmetic issues.

LeyeT said:
but do you realize if that were true, it only serves to support my original point that we need to stop water fluoridation because people are ingesting too much fluoride?

You're a fool. Stopping water fluoridation would put more people at risk for developing fluorosis since the adjustment accomplished by fluoridation actually LOWERS the amount of naturally-occurring fluoride for the majority of the population receiving optimally-fluoridated community water.

Your claim is void due to lack of evidence and arguing from ignorance.

Your shotgun has run out of shells.


You Lose.

@Candor ........:comeon:

 
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OsO

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Read carefully from the previous post:​

maybe you should read it carefully. nowhere does it say water fluoridation does not play a role in excessive fluoride intake across in the united states.

the ability of excessive fluoride intake to occur without fluoridated water in this single community

does not equal

water fluoridation does not play a role in excessive fluoride intake in the entire united states.

furthermore, the fact excessive fluoride intake can indeed occur without the aid of fluoridated water further reenforces the original premise of this thread, which is that water fluoridation is an outdated practice for modern day america and needs to be abolished. it's common sense... if we're already at risk for possibly ingesting too much fluoride from the other sources besides water, why add even more fluoride to the public water supply where we are sure to ingest it several times a day?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation
Fluoride's effects depend on the total daily intake of fluoride from all sources. Drinking water is typically the largest source;[12] other methods of fluoride therapy include fluoridation of toothpaste, salt, and milk.[13]

it's over for you right here...

but let's continue.

60% of the United States is NOT fluoridated to EPA standards.
1. where are you getting this stat from :why:

2. hypothetically, even if 60% of the US has water fluoridated at levels above .7ppm, doesn't that mean we should focus on removing fluoride from the water instead of adding it, since anything above .7ppm is considered harmful? :comeon:


Also:



Improper dosage from other sources in fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas leading to fluorosis is confirmed by the study. There is NO indication that properly fluoridated community water played a role.

1. the study you posted was alright but it's nothing definitive, and i already broke down the reasons why it's not definitive. it used parent questionnaires to verify it's data cmon sun that's speculative at best.

2. even if the study were definitive, improper dosage occurring in one non fluoridated area still does NOT equal water fluoridation not contributing to improper dosage for americans in other areas.


Why was the level changed?

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says dental fluorosis is highest among adolescents between the ages of 12 an 15. One reason for the increase in fluorosis: Americans now have access to fluoride from a variety of sources, including toothpaste, mouth rinses and prescription supplements, the Department of Health and Human Services says.
1. "one reason" does not equate to "only reason," so stop equating the two to fit your agenda.

2. according to you, water fluoridation has no impact on excessive fluoride intake, so why would the government lower water fluoridation levels to try and combat fluorosis? do you see how your original assertion is so ridiculous that you will never be able to answer this question?


There is no study that states or proves that properly fluoridated water is the cause of fluorosis or any other health/cosmetic issues.

it's not the the sole cause, no. but that was never the debate. the debate is whether we should continue the practice of water fluoridation. and imo everything presented in this thread only further reenforces that we should stop, at least until more definitive testing on the long term affects can be determined.

again i'll ask you: do you know how much sodium fluoride the average person ingests in areas with fluoridated water? what happens to the fluoride once it passes the mouth and enters the body? does it accumulate? if so, at what rate, and in what specific areas does it accumulate? and what are the physiological effects of accumulation in these areas? at what rate does the kidney get rid of excess fluoride? does the rate fluctuate with body type? and so on...

these are the questions we should be asking. and the fact you dont know the answers but yet still advocate for water fluoridation as a practice without questioning it is why i call you a psuedo-skeptic.


You're a fool. Stopping water fluoridation would put more people at risk for developing fluorosis since the adjustment accomplished by fluoridation actually LOWERS the amount of naturally-occurring fluoride for the majority of the population receiving optimally-fluoridated community water.
:snoop: this has got to be a new low.

the practice of public water fluoridation only adds fluoride to water that doesn't have enough. it's not a program that adds fluoridated water to already over-fluoridated water to try and balance it out somehow.

and i'm guessing thats the source of your confusion. no offense but the ignorance in your posts is probably due to the fact you dont fully understand the concepts being discussed, as demonstrated by your statement above.

and it's all good... because ultimately this isn't about trying to win an argument on a message board, i just want to make sure the people reading this message board are getting the right information concerning their health.

and im positive your performance in this thread has assured that :banderas:
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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LeyeT said:
maybe you should read it carefully. nowhere does it say water fluoridation does not play a role in excessive fluoride intake across in the united states.

You're an idiot. Nowhere does it say properly fluoridated water played a role in excess fluoride consumption because that was traced to OTHER SOURCES OF FLUORIDE in optimally-fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities across the United States......

Enamel fluorosis in the optimally fluoridated study sample was attributed to early toothbrushing behaviors, inappropriate fluoride supplementation and the use of infant formula in the form of a powdered concentrate.

Your argument that properly fluoridated water causes any issues has no evidence to support it and is confusing correlation with causation.

You've exhausted every bad debating tactic and your shotgun has no ammo.

Post more rambling walls of text devoid of any evidence.

You Lose.

@Candor ......:beli:
 
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observe

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The indigenous Indians in South America have perfect teeth..and they've never used tooth paste nor do they have to go to the dentist..there's a doc out about an Alaskan boy who researched a doctor along time ago that cured cancer on like 80% of his patients..the dentist association doesn't want you to know this..they had to black out a dentists face who removed the metal out of someone's teeth that they put in for cavities or he would lose his dentist license if they found out..the metal is actually radio active and the gases can be seen thru themo optics..tooth paste actually fukks ya teeth up..if we had straight natural food we wouldn't need toothpaste..
 
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88m3

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You're an idiot. Nowhere does it say properly fluoridated water played a role in excess fluoride consumption because that was traced to OTHER SOURCES OF FLUORIDE in optimally-fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities across the United States......



Your argument that properly fluoridated water causes any issues has no evidence to support it and is confusing correlation with causation.

You've exhausted every bad debating tactic and your shotgun has no ammo.

Post more rambling walls of text devoid of any evidence.

You Lose.

@Candor ......:beli:


I don't think he gets it, man. You've been telling him this since the start of the thread.
 

Midrash

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As a chemistry major, reading all of the anti-fluoride conspiracy posts makes me weep. It's almost as bad as Michelle Bachmann's vaccines cause autism nonsense. ALMOST!
snoop.png



Water fluoridation is one of the best methods we have currently of preventing cavities on a widespread level in poor regions where people are more likely to not have good dental hygiene and for general population to reduce the rate at which tooth enamel demineralizes to prevent cavities.


Do not listen to those stupid CAC new age hippies putting out all kinds of bullshyt that isn't peer reviewed to begin with to line their pockets selling you snake oil. They will sell you skinny wraps, all natural herbal remedies, detox drinks(It's called a liver!!) and other useless bullshyt at premium pharmaceutical prices while simultaneous creating all kind of propaganda about how the drug industry only cares about profits and is actually giving us toxins.
comeon.png
 

Dusty Bake Activate

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You're an idiot. Nowhere does it say properly fluoridated water played a role in excess fluoride consumption because that was traced to OTHER SOURCES OF FLUORIDE in optimally-fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities across the United States......



Your argument that properly fluoridated water causes any issues has no evidence to support it and is confusing correlation with causation.

You've exhausted every bad debating tactic and your shotgun has no ammo.

Post more rambling walls of text devoid of any evidence.

You Lose.

@Candor ......:beli:
He'll never get it because he doesn't want to get it.
 

OsO

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You're an idiot. Nowhere does it say properly fluoridated water played a role in excess fluoride consumption because that was traced to OTHER SOURCES OF FLUORIDE in optimally-fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities across the United States......



Your argument that properly fluoridated water causes any issues has no evidence to support it and is confusing correlation with causation.

You've exhausted every bad debating tactic and your shotgun has no ammo.

Post more rambling walls of text devoid of any evidence.

You Lose.

@Candor ......:beli:


cool story bro.
you've already demonstrated you dont even know what water fluoridation is... lol just fall back :heh:
 

OsO

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I don't think he gets it, man. You've been telling him this since the start of the thread.
He'll never get it because he doesn't want to get it.

you two can get that work next... i'll give you the same question that funkdoc couldn't answer:

... if the government lowered the amount of fluoride being put into the water in 2011 (from .7-1.2ppm to <.7ppm), that means there was a period of time prior to 2011 where we were not fluoridating our water at the optimum levels, correct?

?
 

OsO

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As a chemistry major, reading all of the anti-fluoride conspiracy posts makes me weep. It's almost as bad as Michelle Bachmann's vaccines cause autism nonsense. ALMOST!
snoop.png



Water fluoridation is one of the best methods we have currently of preventing cavities on a widespread level in poor regions where people are more likely to not have good dental hygiene and for general population to reduce the rate at which tooth enamel demineralizes to prevent cavities.


Do not listen to those stupid CAC new age hippies putting out all kinds of bullshyt that isn't peer reviewed to begin with to line their pockets selling you snake oil. They will sell you skinny wraps, all natural herbal remedies, detox drinks(It's called a liver!!) and other useless bullshyt at premium pharmaceutical prices while simultaneous creating all kind of propaganda about how the drug industry only cares about profits and is actually giving us toxins.
comeon.png


breh, anybody with access to running water and toothpaste in 2013 does not need fluoridated water to prevent cavities.

and you say you have a background in chemistry... although im not sure about your knowledge of physiology or biology maybe you can help answer these questions:

do you know how much sodium fluoride the average person ingests in areas with fluoridated water? what happens to the fluoride once it passes the mouth and enters the body? does it accumulate? if so, at what rate, and in what specific areas does it accumulate? and what are the physiological effects of accumulation in these areas? at what rate does the kidney get rid of excess fluoride? does the rate fluctuate with body type? and so on...

these are the questions we should be asking.
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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LeyeT said:
you've already demonstrated you dont even know what water fluoridation is

You believe optimal water fluoridation is 'drugging the public' and a host of other nonsense that has been systematically disproven with evidence over 50 years ago.

LOL.

You have been wrong since your initial post and every post since then has further demonstrated your ignorance of the subject, your willingness to believe lies, your absolute lack of any debating skills, your intellectual incapacity, and your inability to reason.

Your evidence to support your claim is non-existent and the only evidence provided in this thread proves that proper/optimal water fluoridation is beneficial and causes no harm.

You have no argument and are afraid of nothing except looking like a complete fool.

YOU LOSE.​
 
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OsO

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You believe optimal water fluoridation is 'drugging the public' and a host of other nonsense that has been systematically disproven with evidence over 50 years ago.

LOL.

You have been wrong since your initial post and every post since then has further demonstrated your ignorance of the subject, your willingness to believe lies, your absolute lack of any debating skills, your intellectual incapacity, and your inability to reason.

Your evidence to support your claim is non-existent and the only evidence provided in this thread proves that proper/optimal water fluoridation is beneficial and causes no harm.

You have no argument and are afraid of nothing except looking like a complete fool.

YOU LOSE.​


another cool story bro, but you sure that's not an autobiography :heh:

but in all seriousness, when it comes to our exchanges you never answer all my questions or address all of my points. you like to pick and choose specific points you think you can debate successfully and you ignore the points you can't debate successfully, which to me is intellectually dishonest. you try and use scientific studies that are not definitive to extrapolate definitive conclusions because you're desperate for scientific studies to support your outrageous assertions. and overall, if i can be blunt, you lack intellectual integrity and the ability to reason.

AND to top it off, we just found out after 180 posts that you dont even know what water fluoridation is :snoop:



so do yourself a favor... hang it up champ :flabbynsick:
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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Let's destroy this last piece of an argument.....

LeyeT said:
... if the government lowered the amount of fluoride being put into the water in 2011 (from .7-1.2ppm to <.7ppm), that means there was a period of time prior to 2011 where we were not fluoridating our water at the optimum levels, correct?

Wrong.....as usual. Not everyone whose water is fluoridated is receiving optimally fluoridated water, nor is it always 'put in'. Many times, it is removed.

The period of time when we weren't optimally fluoridating is still happening.......:laff::laff::laff:

Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA's Standards

March 2006

Pg 1-2 of 4
The committee did not evaluate the risks or benefits of the lower fluoride concentrations (0.7-1.2 mg/L) used in water fluoridation. Therefore, the committee's conclusions regarding the potential for adverse effects from fluoride at 2 to 4 mg/L in drinking water do not apply at the lower fluoride levels commonly experienced by most US citizens.

The 'optimal' concentration of fluoride in drinking water for preventing tooth decay was set at a range of 0.7 to 1.2 mg/L more than 40 years ago by the U.S. Public Health Service. The recommended range for artificial fluoridation is below the EPA standards and was designed for a different purpose, so it is important to note that the safety and effectiveness of the practice of water fluoridation was outside the scope of this report and is not evaluated. This report only evaluates EPA standards.

A 1993 report from the National Research Council had concluded that the EPA standard of 4 mg/L was an appropriate interim standard until more research could be conducted. However, following a comprehensive review of the research conducted since 1993, this report concludes the EPA standard is not protective of health because fluoride exposure at 4 mg/L puts children at risk of developing severe enamel fluorosis that can compromise tooth enamel function and appearance. Fluoride exposure at 4 mg/L could also weaken bone and increase the risk of fractures.


The EPA proposed lowering it's standards (Maximum Contaminant Level) from 4 mg/L to 0.7 mg/L to avoid causing fluorosis. The lower end of the range used by HHS for optimal water fluoridation was chosen because it has been shown to be the most beneficial to public health while being least likely to contribute to fluorosis.

The EPA decision only reinforces the fact that optimally fluoridated water doesn't cause issues and the fact that....


YOU LOSE.
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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LeyeT said:
a
but in all seriousness, when it comes to our exchanges you never answer all my questions or address all of my points.

:comeon:

"Shotgun argumentation" is a metaphor from real life: It's much easier to hunt a rabbit with a shotgun than with a rifle. This is because a rifle only fires one bullet and there's a high probability of a miss. A shotgun, however, fires tens or even hundreds of small pellets, and the probability of at least one of them hitting the rabbit is quite high.

Shotgun argumentation has the same basic idea: The more small arguments or "evidence" you present in favor of some claim, the higher the probability that someone will believe you regarldess of how ridiculous those arguments are. There are two reasons for this:

Firstly, just the sheer amount of arguments or "evidence" may be enough to convince someone that something strange is going on. The idea is basically: "There is this much evidence against the official story, there must be something wrong with it." One or two pieces of "evidence" may not be enough to convince anyone, but collect a set of a couple of hundreds of pieces of "evidence" and it immediately starts being more believable.

Of course the fallacy here is that the amount of "evidence" is in no way proof of anything. The vast majority, and usually all of this "evidence" is easily explainable and just patently false. There may be a few points which may be more difficult to explain, but they alone wouldn't be so convincing.

Secondly, and more closely related to the shotgun methapor: The more arguments or individual pieces of "evidence" you have, the higher the probability that at least some of them will convince someone. Someone might not get convinced by most of the arguments, but among them there may be one or a few which sounds so plausible to him that he is then convinced. Thus one or a few of the "pellets" hit the "rabbit" and killed it: Mission accomplished.

I have a concrete example of this: I had a friend who is academically educated, a MSc, and doing research work (relating to computer science) at a university. He is rational, intelligent and well-educated.

Yet still this person, at least some years ago, completely believed the Moon hoax theory. Why? He said to me quite explicitly that there was one thing that convinced him: The flag moving after it had been planted on the ground.

One of the pellets had hit the rabbit and killed it. The shotgun argumentation had been successful.

If even highly-educated academic people can fall for such "evidence" (which is easily explained), how more easily are more "regular" people going to believe the sheer amount of them? Sadly, quite a lot more easily.

Most conspiracy theorists continue to present the same old tired arguments which are very easy to prove wrong. They need all those arguments, no matter how ridiculous, for their shotgun argumentation tactics to work.​

ALL your arguments are refutable in the very first sentence........every post. No need to go any further than that to prove you wrong.​
 
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