So basically this war is officially lost. Taliban and U.S. Agree to Peace Talks

[Slystallion]

I don't have enough time to look into the situation at the moment. But if this could have been dealt with without the war a decade ago it's pretty sad that it wasn't. But if it was so cut and dry and simple why wasn't it done? The has got to be more... I doubt the decision was that simple to make unless you buy into ulterior motives which I'm very careful not to do because those are difficult things to prove. I always assume people are making decisions that they feel are in best interest of the country but even that assumption is dangerous to make.

 

[theworldismine13]

Oh yah thats why the Taliban still call them selves the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and had their Flag by their side at the press conference.

Because theyre absolutely petrified of the Afghan government

yo dont put words in my mouth, i never said that the taliban were petrified of the government, my point is that the taliban do not pose an existential threat to the governemtn like they did 5 years ago

the afghan government is not going anywhere, they will not be toppled, i think the taliban realize this

they said so recently
Taliban Hints At Eventual Power Sharing In Afghanistan

they said so last year
Taliban Statement: Open to Power-Sharing in Afghanistan -- News from Antiwar.com

they said so in 2007
http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/lop/researchpublications/prb0727-e.pdf

how does power sharing translate into " the Taliban caveat that they didnt need to be part of the govt was on the tables YEARS AGO pre Obama"

how do you "power share" without being part of the government?

Thats why the Afghan government is boycotting talks? Because the Taliban are tellin em fukk you we only talk to Americans

BBC News - Afghan government to boycott Taliban peace talks

America went from demanding the Taliban recognize the constitution to hoping that can be an outcome of negotiations

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/19/wo...ewanted=2&_r=0

Taliban meanwhile saying they have their own constitution

Taliban calls for new constitution in French talks - France - Afghanistan - RFI

Keep tap dancing and spinning

i would dispute your interpretation of events, whats happening is the afghan government is growing some balls and standing up to both the americans and the taliban, which is a good thing, 5 years ago they would not have the balls to talk slick to anybody

and the afghan constitution and government isnt going anywhere thanks to the surge, that is the bottom line

 

[Techniec]

yo dont put words in my mouth, i never said that the taliban were petrified of the government, my point is that the taliban do not pose an existential threat to the governemtn like they did 5 years ago

they dont pose any different of a threat today then they did 5 yrs ago

the afghan government is not going anywhere, they will not be toppled, i think the taliban realize this

the taliban realized this 5 yrs ago

how does power sharing translate into " the Taliban caveat that they didnt need to be part of the govt was on the tables YEARS AGO pre Obama"

how do you "power share" without being part of the government?

i shouldve clarified, what i meant to say was that the Taliban removed their insistence on being the sole government years ago, proof of that has been their willingness to power share, a willingness that began years ago

i would dispute your interpretation of events, whats happening is the afghan government is growing some balls and standing up to both the americans and the taliban, which is a good thing, 5 years ago they would not have the balls to talk slick to anybody

half the goverment is arming themselves to fight the taliban, the government exists on paper, without a taliban agreement it wont last 40 days after a foreign trooop withdrawal

and the afghan constitution and government isnt going anywhere thanks to the surge, that is the bottom line

in 3 yrs the constitution (which no one in afghanistan recognizes) will be modified and you will be back here to tap dance and spin some more

 

[theworldismine13]

they dont pose any different of a threat today then they did 5 yrs ago

5 years ago, the afghan government could not defend itself or do anything without the americans, today the afghan government is responsible for all security

5 years ago if the americans decided to leave the afghan government would have collapsed, today the americans are leaving and the afghan government is handling security

its a night and day situation

the taliban realized this 5 yrs ago

i shouldve clarified, what i meant to say was that the Taliban removed their insistence on being the sole government years ago, proof of that has been their willingness to power share, a willingness that began years ago

im sure some of them did, you need to get it straight, im not denying that the us could have come up with a solution by arranging some "power sharing" my point is that the afghan government was to weak for that power sharing, and the "power sharing" would have quickly turned into a coup, that is what the surge is for

point blank, it was not in american interests to have any type of power sharing with the taliban and a weak afghan government, that would have ended the war but it would have doomed the country to a taliban government

half the goverment is arming themselves to fight the taliban, the government exists on paper, without a taliban agreement it wont last 40 days after a foreign trooop withdrawal

yeah so?

the obama administration is taking the proper steps to make sure the afghan government survives post withdrawal

that is a bit different than trying to simply end the war, if this was simply about "ending the war" it could have been done 5 years ago, if this is about making sure the taliban dont get back into power and the afghan government survives, that takes man power, and carrots and sticks

in 3 yrs the constitution (which no one in afghanistan recognizes) will be modified and you will be back here to tap dance and spin some more

in 3 years, afghanistan will be just like iraq, a psuedo democracy with a relatively stable government, just like i always predicted

your predictions hold no weight anymore than they did 5 years ago when you predicted the end of the american empire and a taliban takeover

 

[jadillac]

That option was always on the table but Bush wanted to run for re-election as a "wartime president"

This.

They look at all this as almost like a novel or a fictional movie, rather than real human lives/families being affected. Paper soldiers.

But the reality is, kids are growing up w/o their father(who was killed in war) and their mother can now barely support them, while George Bush these days is painting pictures of puppies and himself in the shower.


What's just as funny is, this is gonna be spun on Obama as not being "tough enough to finish the job"...."or compromising with the enemy"

 

[The Real]

5 years ago, the afghan government could not defend itself or do anything without the americans, today the afghan government is responsible for all security

5 years ago if the americans decided to leave the afghan government would have collapsed, today the americans are leaving and the afghan government is handling security

its a night and day situation

No offense to @Techniec, but the Afghan army is currently flabby and sick. American forces stupidly took some of the best small-unit, mobile fighters on the planet and neutered them by trying to turn them into a Western-style, vehicle-reliant army, which didn't work out well as those people can't simply be forced into a completely new fighting framework in such a short time. On top of that, they're poorly armed- we took their much more versatile and practical AKs from them, and (thanks to weapons contract interests trumping actual battlefield interests) palmed off our old surplus weapons, which don't even have proper ammo on the market anymore and are much less reliable in that climate. Vehicles, too. I could go on and on, but really, the point is, once foreign troops leave, the government will be forced to share power, or worse, with the Taliban because they're in no position to take on all the insurgents by themselves, and there's no amount of preparation that can change that at this point without actually changing the deadlines, etc.

 

[theworldismine13]

No offense to @Techniec, but the Afghan army is currently flabby and sick. American forces stupidly took some of the best small-unit, mobile fighters on the planet and neutered them by trying to turn them into a Western-style, vehicle-reliant army, which didn't work out well as those people can't simply be forced into a completely new martial culture in such a short time. On top of that, they're poorly armed- we took their much more versatile and practical AKs from them, and (thanks to weapons contract interests trumping actual battlefield interests) palmed off our old surplus weapons, which don't even have proper ammo on the market anymore and are much less reliable in that climate. Vehicles, too. I could go on and on, but really, the point is, once foreign troops leave, the government will be forced to share power, or worse, with the Taliban because they're in no position to take on all the insurgents by themselves, and there's no amount of preparation that can change that at this point.

There isnt any crisis, the afghan army is ok, they are not great, they are not bad, but they are ok for what they are suppose to do

If you want to see what the Afghanistan army will look like look at Iraq

 

[Techniec]

No offense to @Techniec, but the Afghan army is currently flabby and sick. American forces stupidly took some of the best small-unit, mobile fighters on the planet and neutered them by trying to turn them into a Western-style, vehicle-reliant army, which didn't work out well as those people can't simply be forced into a completely new fighting framework in such a short time. On top of that, they're poorly armed- we took their much more versatile and practical AKs from them, and (thanks to weapons contract interests trumping actual battlefield interests) palmed off our old surplus weapons, which don't even have proper ammo on the market anymore and are much less reliable in that climate. Vehicles, too. I could go on and on, but really, the point is, once foreign troops leave, the government will be forced to share power, or worse, with the Taliban because they're in no position to take on all the insurgents by themselves, and there's no amount of preparation that can change that at this point without actually changing the deadlines, etc.

not to mention that their plans for an Afghan army involve 250,000 troops. No Afghan leader in history had an army that big. The Afghan government will never afford the defence budget for salaries alone let alone the logistical issues (transportation, oil, communications) that comes with an army like that

the Taliban controlled the country with 30,000 fighters in sandals, a strong government doesnt need 300,000 soldiers

fact is, at the end of the day, there is no verifiable proof that anything has changed in the last 5 yrs. the exact same conditions today were present 5 yrs ago,

 

[Patrick Kane]

At least the war machine made their billions. Business as usual.

 

[Techniec]

There isnt any crisis, the afghan army is ok, they are not great, they are not bad, but they are ok for what they are suppose to do

If you want to see what the Afghanistan army will look like look at Iraq

there only 1 self sufficient brigade in the entire army and it has a 20% attrition rate, the officer corp are thoroughly politicized, the army will split in 4 if there is no agreement with the Taliban

As for Iraq, Maliki is the new dictator, and the army is one big Shia Militia, have you been following developments there or are you just spouting nonsense just to read your own posts?

keep dancing

 

[Patrick Kane]

The war was lost when the US gave up a certain victory to prolong a war.

The amount of territory the US gave up is astronomical. Not to mention continuing aiding a country that was pumping money and giving shelter to supply lines and enemy command structure. THe Bush ended up splitting our forces to take to Iraq.

Military victory was never the objective there.

Eh, you recommended the book Ghost Wars on here way back in like September or so. I read it and it was a brilliant read. Any other good military books on like CIA and covert operations you'd recommend?

 

[superunknown23]

How long do you think Karzai will stay in Afghanistan after US troops leave?
I'd say less than 1 day

 

[Techniec]

Eh, you recommended the book Ghost Wars on here way back in like September or so. I read it and it was a brilliant read. Any other good military books on like CIA and covert operations you'd recommend?

Lucy Morgan Edwards - The Afghan Solution: the inside Story of Abdul Haq, the CIA and how Western Hubris Lost Afghanistan

be careful tho, this book will have absolutely disgusted at the uselessness of this war

defence contractors, afghan warlords and opium dealers benefited from this war thats it

 

[Techniec]

How long do you think Karzai will stay in Afghanistan after US troops leave?
I'd say less than 1 day

if there is no peace deal, the northern alliance and taliban are shooting it out and karzais back in virginia

 

[The Real]

There isnt any crisis, the afghan army is ok, they are not great, they are not bad, but they are ok for what they are suppose to do

If you want to see what the Afghanistan army will look like look at Iraq

The US is the one coming to the table and dropping preconditions. That's because they know what's going to happen if there's no peace deal at this point.