So a Frenchman, Latvian & Spaniard Walk Into Bar, Melo Takes All The Shots Offseason NYK Thread
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storyteller
Superstar
I think Hinkie's rebuild is the most overrated thing ever but it's not comparable to signing THJ in any way whatsoever. Hinkie's youth core is all on rookie contracts, if players that were young didn't look like absolute studs they were dealt for more picks before being re-signed. The pattern sticks from Jrue to MCW to Noel to shopping Okafor this offseason. They don't overpay young cats based on potential, they sell potential before it costs them flexibility. The THJ deal and even the Baker deal conflict with that in that we paid for potential instead of actual returns. As far as vets for guys like Simmons or Embiid, they didn't get vets but they did get red shirt years. Okafor, who didn't and also didn't have a vet to guide him, wound up knocking fans out as a rookie and is the latest young player that they want to dump instead of pay. Youth is valuable because of their contracts just as much as their potential and Hinkie lived by that philosophy.
I think the issue of the THJ deal that doesn't get discussed enough is that it was the last bit of cap space. The one saving grace of the Noah/Rose/Lee offseason was that a cap increase meant 20 million in cap space the following offseason. The increases are over, we're at 99 million cap now and project 103 million next season. That means we're cap locked and if we need cap space, teams can charge us. Look at how badly the C's got jerked for a talent like Bradley and they needed ONE MILLION dollars in cap space. That's the illustration of what even slight overpays can do to your team, especially if you're making those overpays any time before the final step. THJ got "final piece" money. He's making close to 20% of the cap, his contract means free agency will not be a legitimate option going forward (at least unless we find cap space in Melo and Lee trades). We can't name a Philly signing that makes the Knicks look stupid, because Philly built entirely through the draft. But we CAN point to contracts given to similar players (Dion Waiters) as proof he was overpaid. And now that we're cap locked, being able to move contracts is more important than ever, so knowing that ATL planned to match up to 50 million not close to 70 million; knowing that Waiters got 52 million; knowing that KCP couldn't get a similar yearly figure long term anywhere...that all tells us THJ likely didn't have a 70 million dollar market.
Now lemme add this in; I think upon moving Melo, we'll have created a perfect role for THJ to get the numbers necessary to justify the deal. He'll be the second option and best perimeter scorer on this roster. That means 20 ppg is attainable. The real key will be how efficiently he does it and how much he contributes everywhere else (defense, playmaking, rebounding). We don't have the money to bring in a second option for KP if THJ fails now and scoring isn't enough to be a true second cog. That means we need THJ to work out or Willy, Frank, unnamed draft pick has to become that guy. But whether it works out for us or not; if THJ isn't a top 3 player for us when KP turns the corner from potential star to actual star; then we have too much money tied into him.
Melo Trade Talks Heating Up
@storyteller thanks for the response.
My question is, throughout the process, while being years removed from actual playoff contention, had Philly tied up their cap with seeing if they could develop a young signed prospect or signing a budding prospect, how would it have changed where they are today?
They haven't signed any "actual returns" and they've made more than quite a few questionable moves and they are considered the example to follow.
You would think with the injury history of their draft picks, they'd have benefited by signing potential talent with durability to actually work in tandem with their drafted prospects.
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What does KCP have to do this year to justify 18mil that could have went somewhere else?
Is there a NetRating or Defensive resting that we can use as a barometer to point to in determining what we'll agree as Tim living up to contract?
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Outside of this new polarizing issue among Knicks fans, let's speak on more optimistic topics, what are your thoughts on this Melo deal getting done by today?
My question is, throughout the process, while being years removed from actual playoff contention, had Philly tied up their cap with seeing if they could develop a young signed prospect or signing a budding prospect, how would it have changed where they are today?
They haven't signed any "actual returns" and they've made more than quite a few questionable moves and they are considered the example to follow.
You would think with the injury history of their draft picks, they'd have benefited by signing potential talent with durability to actually work in tandem with their drafted prospects.
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What does KCP have to do this year to justify 18mil that could have went somewhere else?
Is there a NetRating or Defensive resting that we can use as a barometer to point to in determining what we'll agree as Tim living up to contract?
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Outside of this new polarizing issue among Knicks fans, let's speak on more optimistic topics, what are your thoughts on this Melo deal getting done by today?
I would have preferred to see some better budget management from Mills since it seems like a foregone conclusion that he'll be given the reins to lead the team. I don't really have an issue with bringing Baker back, I just thought of him as more of the 10th or 11th guy on the team and the contract he got seems inflated even in today's NBA salary space. But then I read earlier today that Hornacek loves the guy so maybe he is gonna get a bigger role next season.
With the cap floor, you don't have to really justify one year deals anymore. Not when you're a team that's looking to create as much space as they can for next free agency.
storyteller
Superstar
The reason I dog Hinkie is because the logic of not signing durable players was that they didn't care about winning...I don't think Hinkie's moves reflect ever trying to win in the immediate future, just getting high picks and taking home run swings. It's like the baseball player who hits homeruns but strikes out whenever he doesn't. I would have liked that approach to this season only and that's because we went into the offseason looking to move Melo and turn KP into a focal point. I still think we're sorta moving in that direction, take a season to focus on youth and sacrifice winning while those guys develop. The only thing that's given me pause is the cap situation. If the youth flops, we'll be in no position to change direction. We'll be in the Hinkie format by force rather than decision. I'm confident in our youth for the most part though, it's just that I like hedging my bets.
I think defensive metrics are fairly flawed across the board. If I'm guarding a fast PG and my big isn't hedging when I try to get around screens, I'm gonna look like a bad defender. If a wing needs me to swing over and help, my man is open for kickouts and the stats won't show that Derrick Rose made me look bad. In reverse, if I've got Bazemore guarding the better wing and Dwight protecting the paint along with a great coaching scheme...I'll look better than I am (although I don't want that to come across like THJ hasn't improved because he has, just an example). To me, the eye test is a big part of judgement even with the myriad metrics available.
KCP will warrant a longer contract if he hits his defensive upside (dude has stopper potential) and improves efficiency. He flashed scoring ability early last season and I really think the locker room issues took a toll. He was mostly regarded as the top FA SG, being an RFA hurt him and his status wasn't rescinded until teams had already addressed SG needs. He's already good for around 15 a game and has already shown high level defense at times; combine the two and improve his efficiency and he'll get paid. I think KCP needed a change of scenery and I think he'll have a really nice year with Ball feeding him.
The more teams the more complicated, so I'm just tryna be patient. Four teams means a lot of moving parts but it shows that a lot of the rumors we heard have legs and that the Knicks/Houston are really working hard to make it work. The fact that we keep making things more complicated probably means we're really drawing a line in the sand on what we'll take back and that's a really good sign. At this point, I'm eager to see the return and what moves happen to follow. I'm surprised we haven't heard any Courtney Lee rumors since predraft.
The War Report
NewNewYork
Where the leg work outs? :waist:
Maybe he ain't on leg day today
Supposedly Broussard Said On FoxSports That The Trade Will Be Announced Tomorrow
Inheriting Ryan Anderson $61 Million Dollar Contract Would Be A Death Blow, Pray He's Sent Somewhere Else
Inheriting Ryan Anderson $61 Million Dollar Contract Would Be A Death Blow, Pray He's Sent Somewhere Else
Carolina Slim
Superstar
I'm reading that the Pelicans want to be involved; maybe they'll take on Anderson's contract
KnickstapeCity
BigDikktapeCity :shaq:
Maybe he ain't on leg day today
:mjplsknicks: I be skipping leg day, I still run the world.
#4:44
Adebisi_Said
Truth is Power
Supposedly Broussard Said On FoxSports That The Trade Will Be Announced Tomorrow
Inheriting Ryan Anderson $61 Million Dollar Contract Would Be A Death Blow, Pray He's Sent Somewhere Else
Offer the Nets some future picks and they might take on Anderson's contract.
