wow.
yea, good thing that africans are lucky enough to hear the story of christ. now you can be saved!
:snoop: This nicca was my football coach for a couple years in Pop Warner
- Thread starter intilectual recipricol
- Start date
wow.
yea, good thing that africans are lucky enough to hear the story of christ. now you can be saved!
wow.
yea, good thing that africans are lucky enough to hear the story of christ. now you can be saved!
do what you want breh, your the one who came in here bashing me
If you think what i believe in is full of baloney then your entitled to that opinion, only thing i can do for you is pray and keep it moving.
Whats the whole purpose of this discussion anyway?
do what you want breh, your the one who came in here bashing me
If you think what i believe in is full of baloney then your entitled to that opinion, only thing i can do for you is pray and keep it moving.
Whats the whole purpose of this discussion anyway?
well i am promoting the idea that gaining evidence is better than relying on faith, and i wish more people thought the same. i guess well agree to disagree
intilectual recipricol
Killin fake hip hop
I just deleted my 8 page response on accident
Whatever ill just give you a run down on some things you talked about.
Prayer is like a conversation with the lord, its not just about give me this and fix that. Gods sole purpose is not to fulfill all our needs and wants, he loves us and wants to spend time with us.
Heres some miracles i found on youtube, doest compare to crusades in africa but its the best i could find on youtube. My dad has told me stories of amputees that have grown back body parts but that was before i was born and i did not see it for my self. So i cant honestly use it as evidence for anything
God's Miracle!! Lame Man Walks for the First time Part 3 - YouTube
The Blind Receive Their Sight- Kingdom Encounters - YouTube
O and there is no "magic" God does not just go alakazam and your healed
Also i think a huge point that you touched on yourself was if miracles happend all the time in the open then there would be no atheist. God does not want that, that would mean that there would be no choice. You could not choose to follow God because following God would be the "logical" thing to do.If there was blatant evidence like that then everyone would be a christain, there would be no need for "faith" or belief really
I get called crazy by my friends sometimes because im in college and im not ou there drinking , smoking or smashing pawgs. Sometimes i wish i could just walk on water and then they would have to become christian
But thats not how it works breh God wants us to choose him, not be forced to because its an obvious thing.
I really wish i was a veteran pastor or minister that could explain my point of view better, theres still alot that i dont know about the faith.
Im just 18 breh so you merking me on the intellectual side of things
Heck you probably no more about the bible than i do
Mayne, my objective isnt to murk anyone, rather to pass along what I wish someone would have shown me... When I was in the Church, not once did anyone ever look at these things critically to actually determine whether it was true or not, or whether these beliefs were consistent, it was just assumed it was correct and then tried to bend facts to make them fit the world view...
I understand what youre saying about prayer and that Christians argue that its not supposed to be a wishlist of sorts. However, that answer is not biblical. What is biblical is Matthew 21:22 "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
other similar verses (and theres more):
Matt 7:7
I John 3:22
Mark 11:22-24
John 14:12-14
All these verses refute what youre saying about prayer. What you stated is an apologetics answer to why the world looks very different from what the bible says; its designed to explain that there is an all powerful god controlling everything, but it just looks like he doesnt exist.
I also want to address what you said about faith and miracles causing people to be Christians and having no choice. We'll go back to the bible. John 14:10-11 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
Jesus directly refutes what you stated, saying basically if you dont believe in him, then believe based on the evidence of the miracles. He didnt seem too concerned about the free will of the people at the time. And I also want to point you that he defers to "the Father" and that he has no authority. If he were actually God he would be able to speak on his own authority. He goes on to say that believers will do greater things, again showing that ANY Christian should be able to say what Jesus says.
I also want to show that science and scripture are not separate, because the bible and Jesus make testable claims about reality. Mark 16:16-18 states, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.
Again we have Jesus saying certain works and acts are a credible way of determining the truth of his claims. Now the demons, tongues, and snakes can be extremely ambiguous... but we can certainly test the poison claim and healing claim. The only thing is its hard to get Christians to agree to ingest arsenic despite Jesus saying they will be okay. As for the "healings" you posted, we would need medical confirmation of the ailment BEFORE they went to the faith healer, and medical confirmation after the "healings" we know nothing about those people in the videos, whether they were actually lame and blind (and in the case of the lame fellow, he wasnt even walking, not sure what that miracle was even supposed to be). Which goes back to my point about the amputee. I know you said your father told you of stories, but thats the point, these unambiguous miracles seem to only happen in remote places where no one can record the event. That is no coincidence. Like we get the stories and pics of Mary on toast...
As for my use of magic; here is the definition: The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
that would be exactly what evoking a god is, magic.
As for you not being out there drinkin, shmokin, and smashin pawgs... I cant say I was on the same path as you when I was in college... well at least I didnt shmoke
but the point is there are non-christians that also chose that route so in order for you to credit Christianity there would have to be evidence that it cant be done as a non-christian.Besides, I can give you verses supporting drinking and smashin as many hoes as humanly possible.
Again, my point is to have you consider the available evidence and let it help you determine truth from non-truth, not to try and destroy beliefs systems. If the evidence does that, then its simply a by-product. The actual study of the texts of the bible is even more interesting to me. Really an eye-opener when you see how they dissect who wrote what and when, what was added and what was taken out, how they chose books, and whats in the books that were left out. Fascinating stuff.
Mayne, my objective isnt to murk anyone, rather to pass along what I wish someone would have shown me... When I was in the Church, not once did anyone ever look at these things critically to actually determine whether it was true or not, or whether these beliefs were consistent, it was just assumed it was correct and then tried to bend facts to make them fit the world view...
I understand what youre saying about prayer and that Christians argue that its not supposed to be a wishlist of sorts. However, that answer is not biblical. What is biblical is Matthew 21:22 "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
other similar verses (and theres more):
Matt 7:7
I John 3:22
Mark 11:22-24
John 14:12-14
All these verses refute what youre saying about prayer. What you stated is an apologetics answer to why the world looks very different from what the bible says; its designed to explain that there is an all powerful god controlling everything, but it just looks like he doesnt exist.
I also want to address what you said about faith and miracles causing people to be Christians and having no choice. We'll go back to the bible. John 14:10-11 DonÂ’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
Jesus directly refutes what you stated, saying basically if you dont believe in him, then believe based on the evidence of the miracles. He didnt seem too concerned about the free will of the people at the time. And I also want to point you that he defers to "the Father" and that he has no authority. If he were actually God he would be able to speak on his own authority. He goes on to say that believers will do greater things, again showing that ANY Christian should be able to say what Jesus says.
I also want to show that science and scripture are not separate, because the bible and Jesus make testable claims about reality. Mark 16:16-18 states, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.
Again we have Jesus saying certain works and acts are a credible way of determining the truth of his claims. Now the demons, tongues, and snakes can be extremely ambiguous... but we can certainly test the poison claim and healing claim. The only thing is its hard to get Christians to agree to ingest arsenic despite Jesus saying they will be okay. As for the "healings" you posted, we would need medical confirmation of the ailment BEFORE they went to the faith healer, and medical confirmation after the "healings" we know nothing about those people in the videos, whether they were actually lame and blind (and in the case of the lame fellow, he wasnt even walking, not sure what that miracle was even supposed to be). Which goes back to my point about the amputee. I know you said your father told you of stories, but thats the point, these unambiguous miracles seem to only happen in remote places where no one can record the event. That is no coincidence. Like we get the stories and pics of Mary on toast...
As for my use of magic; here is the definition: The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
that would be exactly what evoking a god is, magic.
As for you not being out there drinkin, shmokin, and smashin pawgs... I cant say I was on the same path as you when I was in college... well at least I didnt shmoke
Besides, I can give you verses supporting drinking and smashin as many hoes as humanly possible.
Again, my point is to have you consider the available evidence and let it help you determine truth from non-truth, not to try and destroy beliefs systems. If the evidence does that, then its simply a by-product. The actual study of the texts of the bible is even more interesting to me. Really an eye-opener when you see how they dissect who wrote what and when, what was added and what was taken out, how they chose books, and whats in the books that were left out. Fascinating stuff.
To be fair i can take a verse from the bible and claims its ok to kill people
we have to make sure we take everything into acount such as the context of the verses following it. For example theres a verse that says do not tempt the lord wich basically means dont go drinking poison and then act like you supposed to be fine because you a christian
DonÂ’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.[/I]
Talking about free will, i think this verse is jesus talking about how hes not the one doing the miracle but God the father who is in him. Hes telling the people that if they wont believe in what hes preaching then atleast believe the works that God is doing through him.
Now to continue on that point i believe personally the reasons we dont realy see many signs and wonders here in america is because people are not desperate enought. Or better yet i think they are not willing to fully let go of what they belive is supposed to make sense.
Miracles cannot be explained by logic, back in senegal its life and death out there. When you have honestly nothing left and all you can do is turn to God for answers thats when the amazing happens. Its funny too because when i first came over here i was kinda surprized at the church enviroment. It felt more like hobby or a place to hang out with friends, wich is perfectly fine. But i did not see the hunger or abject desperation for God to move in thier lives.
To me thats the reason you dont see many miracles over here, im not saying God cant do works through you if you believe. But you have to trully be commited, when your life depends on prayer on God moving in a big way is when things happen.
Again thats just my opinion on why we dont see so many of these signs and wonders in the States.
More on free will i foud this online
"Free will" is an expression of the Biblical concept that refers to our right, our freedom, and our responsibility to make the choice between God's will or our own. As a concept it is woven throughout the Bible:
"...Choose today whom you will serve" ...Joshua 24:15
"...So choose life in order that you may live."... Deuteronomy 30:19
"...Choose good"... Isaiah 7:15
"...You did evil in My sight and chose what displeases Me"...
Isaiah 65:12
"...Choose knowledge rather than gold"... Proverbs 8:10
Every commandment that tells us "You shall" or "You shall not" is a directive to make a choice between what God wants vs. what we want. He gives us the freedom of choice, or free will.
Every word God uses that implies making a choice is about our freedom of will. When He says "Do" or "Go" or "Be" or "Make" --any word that implies action implies our choice to either follow Him or ignore Him.
The word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, either. Neither is the "Incarnation." But the concept of both of them is found throughout Scripture.
I hope that helps. God bless.
Anyway im trully enjoying our conversation about this, you have made me want to read my bible more and fully understand what it is i beleive in and what the scripture says. Like you said it is important that we make our own decisions and not just follow what a pastor says. But i feel like the experiences ive had in my life give me validation on what i belive in, atleast validation to myself.
to you breh On the real tho, its getting hard to resist these pawgs breh
intilectual recipricol
Killin fake hip hop
@LurkMoar
No sense in denyin em, just be smart... get you a main piece you like and trust not to burn or trap you
Or wrap up and go Rambo... and not just the pawgs, that goes for any of em...
Regarding the rest of the post,
The bible is written to give you the okay to do literally anything you like, context has nothing to do with it. If you want to kill people your justification is in the bible. Want to rape? The bible doesnt condemn it. Want to own slaves, the bible supports you. Thirst for genocide, the bible will give you support.
Context is simply another apologetics way of rationalizing why the bible really isnt the "good book" its claimed to be. Saying "context" is like a reflex for Christians, meaning its done without thinking. The verses that try to get explained away with "context" there IS NO CONTEXT WHERE THE ACTIONS ARE GOOD. You cant look at the law god gave that states a rapist is to pay the rape victims father 50 pieces of silver and marry the victim, and say that is a good idea in ANY context. Its just plain wrong. There is no context where genocide is right.
Furthermore, when Christians evoke "context" as an escape route, what they have actually done is void the entire book. Not one single sentence of that book is in today's context, thus not a single sentence can be used today once you try to use the "context" defense.
And the fact that you recognize that the bible can be used as justification to kill people, and some people DO use it (and other 'holy books') as justification to kill people easily explains why a lot of non-believers are hostile towards religions. Jesus, in the bible, tells his followers to bring non-believers before him and slay them. Thats not a metaphor, and its not loving, or good. The verse would be problematic if people actually believed in the bible and Christianity.
However, the truth is most people DONT believe in it, even if they say they do. Thats why they ignore the vast majority of the book... they know its malarkey. They use the reason and morality theyve been equipped with through evolution to judge the book and simply discard the vast majority of those pages which are evil.
Now you speak of basically not enough urgency here in America... people still claim miracles though. I have to check my own mother from now and then when I hear her say "god saved her reputation" or something stupid like that...
Why?
These kids are desperate enough, yet no magical sandwiches appear.
My mom, among many other Christians, thinks god is helping to spare her fukcin reputation, or god is helping people find their lost keys or find parking spots, while that vulture waits for that toddler to die of starvation so it can feast. Your theory just doesnt hold water. thousands of kids die yearly, probably monthly and your god does literally nothing.
Again, your explanations are attempts to explain why there is an all powerful god controlling everything, but it just looks like he doesnt exist.
As for free will, predestination is supported in the bible. Thats why there are protestant churches of so many denominations; the bible is so contradictory and unclear that sects that believe different things, based on the bible, chip off.
Ephesians 1:5, “He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.”
And again there are SEVERAL other verses that support predestination, which is the opposite of free will. Now, the fact that no matter what I post, you can post a biblical retort, and vice versa, should be problematic for someone seeking truth. Fact is you will NEVER find truth in a book that takes more than one side on EVERY issue. You wont even find consistency let alone truth.
what the book IS good for is collecting large groups of people, because you dont have to change anything about yourself to be a christian. Whatever you want to do, you can just seek out a verse in the bible and justify it, no matter how evil or absurd. Of course the only thing thats unforgivable in Christianity is apostasy. A smart move to keep the masses in check.
But I digress, find you a nice lil pawg, and do that
No sense in denyin em, just be smart... get you a main piece you like and trust not to burn or trap you
Or wrap up and go Rambo... and not just the pawgs, that goes for any of em...
Regarding the rest of the post,
The bible is written to give you the okay to do literally anything you like, context has nothing to do with it. If you want to kill people your justification is in the bible. Want to rape? The bible doesnt condemn it. Want to own slaves, the bible supports you. Thirst for genocide, the bible will give you support.
Context is simply another apologetics way of rationalizing why the bible really isnt the "good book" its claimed to be. Saying "context" is like a reflex for Christians, meaning its done without thinking. The verses that try to get explained away with "context" there IS NO CONTEXT WHERE THE ACTIONS ARE GOOD. You cant look at the law god gave that states a rapist is to pay the rape victims father 50 pieces of silver and marry the victim, and say that is a good idea in ANY context. Its just plain wrong. There is no context where genocide is right.
Furthermore, when Christians evoke "context" as an escape route, what they have actually done is void the entire book. Not one single sentence of that book is in today's context, thus not a single sentence can be used today once you try to use the "context" defense.
And the fact that you recognize that the bible can be used as justification to kill people, and some people DO use it (and other 'holy books') as justification to kill people easily explains why a lot of non-believers are hostile towards religions. Jesus, in the bible, tells his followers to bring non-believers before him and slay them. Thats not a metaphor, and its not loving, or good. The verse would be problematic if people actually believed in the bible and Christianity.
However, the truth is most people DONT believe in it, even if they say they do. Thats why they ignore the vast majority of the book... they know its malarkey. They use the reason and morality theyve been equipped with through evolution to judge the book and simply discard the vast majority of those pages which are evil.
Now you speak of basically not enough urgency here in America... people still claim miracles though. I have to check my own mother from now and then when I hear her say "god saved her reputation" or something stupid like that...
Why?
These kids are desperate enough, yet no magical sandwiches appear.
My mom, among many other Christians, thinks god is helping to spare her fukcin reputation, or god is helping people find their lost keys or find parking spots, while that vulture waits for that toddler to die of starvation so it can feast. Your theory just doesnt hold water. thousands of kids die yearly, probably monthly and your god does literally nothing.
Again, your explanations are attempts to explain why there is an all powerful god controlling everything, but it just looks like he doesnt exist.
As for free will, predestination is supported in the bible. Thats why there are protestant churches of so many denominations; the bible is so contradictory and unclear that sects that believe different things, based on the bible, chip off.
Ephesians 1:5, “He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.”
And again there are SEVERAL other verses that support predestination, which is the opposite of free will. Now, the fact that no matter what I post, you can post a biblical retort, and vice versa, should be problematic for someone seeking truth. Fact is you will NEVER find truth in a book that takes more than one side on EVERY issue. You wont even find consistency let alone truth.
what the book IS good for is collecting large groups of people, because you dont have to change anything about yourself to be a christian. Whatever you want to do, you can just seek out a verse in the bible and justify it, no matter how evil or absurd. Of course the only thing thats unforgivable in Christianity is apostasy. A smart move to keep the masses in check.
But I digress, find you a nice lil pawg, and do that
Last edited by a moderator:
Slaimon Khan Shah
SLAIMON KHAN SHAH = SHAOLIN MONK/S OF ISLAAM
BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHEEM. IN ISLAM WE BELIEVE THAT THE EVIL PEOPLE WILL GO TO THE HELLFIRE AND THE RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE WILL GO TO PARADISE. JUSTICE.
@LurkMoar
No sense in denyin em, just be smart... get you a main piece you like and trust not to burn or trap you
Or wrap up and go Rambo... and not just the pawgs, that goes for any of em...
Regarding the rest of the post,
The bible is written to give you the okay to do literally anything you like, context has nothing to do with it. If you want to kill people your justification is in the bible. Want to rape? The bible doesnt condemn it. Want to own slaves, the bible supports you. Thirst for genocide, the bible will give you support.
Context is simply another apologetics way of rationalizing why the bible really isnt the "good book" its claimed to be. Saying "context" is like a reflex for Christians, meaning its done without thinking. The verses that try to get explained away with "context" there IS NO CONTEXT WHERE THE ACTIONS ARE GOOD. You cant look at the law god gave that states a rapist is to pay the rape victims father 50 pieces of silver and marry the victim, and say that is a good idea in ANY context. Its just plain wrong. There is no context where genocide is right.
Furthermore, when Christians evoke "context" as an escape route, what they have actually done is void the entire book. Not one single sentence of that book is in today's context, thus not a single sentence can be used today once you try to use the "context" defense.
And the fact that you recognize that the bible can be used as justification to kill people, and some people DO use it (and other 'holy books') as justification to kill people easily explains why a lot of non-believers are hostile towards religions. Jesus, in the bible, tells his followers to bring non-believers before him and slay them. Thats not a metaphor, and its not loving, or good. The verse would be problematic if people actually believed in the bible and Christianity.
However, the truth is most people DONT believe in it, even if they say they do. Thats why they ignore the vast majority of the book... they know its malarkey. They use the reason and morality theyve been equipped with through evolution to judge the book and simply discard the vast majority of those pages which are evil.
Now you speak of basically not enough urgency here in America... people still claim miracles though. I have to check my own mother from now and then when I hear her say "god saved her reputation" or something stupid like that...
Why?
These kids are desperate enough, yet no magical sandwiches appear.
My mom, among many other Christians, thinks god is helping to spare her fukcin reputation, or god is helping people find their lost keys or find parking spots, while that vulture waits for that toddler to die of starvation so it can feast. Your theory just doesnt hold water. thousands of kids die yearly, probably monthly and your god does literally nothing.
Again, your explanations are attempts to explain why there is an all powerful god controlling everything, but it just looks like he doesnt exist.
As for free will, predestination is supported in the bible. Thats why there are protestant churches of so many denominations; the bible is so contradictory and unclear that sects that believe different things, based on the bible, chip off.
Ephesians 1:5, “He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.”
And again there are SEVERAL other verses that support predestination, which is the opposite of free will. Now, the fact that no matter what I post, you can post a biblical retort, and vice versa, should be problematic for someone seeking truth. Fact is you will NEVER find truth in a book that takes more than one side on EVERY issue. You wont even find consistency let alone truth.
what the book IS good for is collecting large groups of people, because you dont have to change anything about yourself to be a christian. Whatever you want to do, you can just seek out a verse in the bible and justify it, no matter how evil or absurd. Of course the only thing thats unforgivable in Christianity is apostasy. A smart move to keep the masses in check.
But I digress, find you a nice lil pawg, and do that
Like i said breh The devil is the king of this world and hes going to run it until the lord comes back. If were talking starvation ive lived it breh
and i was well off compared to some kids . God loves everyone but man but this world is filled with people in unfortunate situations who never have a chance in life. And i think you took my desperation comment the wrong way, Its not Gods fault these kids are starving. Its the sad geopolitical truth about most third world countries, and if you got those pictures from nigeria then its even more saddening considering i was born there and even i know the system over there is awful. Humans are the reason those kids are starving not God, now could God rain down bread from the heavens for them? Absolutely but thats supposed to be our job, the church is the body of Christ on the earth, we are supposed to care for the weak the poor and the hungry but we dont and its a sad thing man. Anyway i can tell you pretty ingrained in what you believe in but so am i, im glad we could have this talk.
Meanwhile I think i can keep it in my pants till i find miss right
She needs to hurry up tho
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intilectual recipricol
Killin fake hip hop
Like i said breh The devil is the king of this world and hes going to run it until the lord comes back. If were talking starvation ive lived it breh
Anyway i can tell you pretty ingrained in what you believe in but so am i, im glad we could have this talk.
Meanwhile I think i can keep it in my pants till i find miss right
She needs to hurry up tho
Of course those kids starving isnt god's fault, he doesnt exist. Of course those kids starving is man's fault, because man exists. Again, your explanation is designed to explain that there is a all powerful god controlling everything, but it just seems like he doesnt exist.
I am not ingrained in my stance, my stance is supported by literally ALL of the evidence. What you have continually done is explain why your god doesnt do anything, except the one time you say he helped you do Matrix moves, that no one else seemed to notice or be impressed by.
Now, obviously I dont expect your entire world view to change in a couple days, it took 18 years to get you to this point. But what I hope for is these conversations and points to sit in the back of your mind to think about for the future,
Perhaps ponder the question; what is the difference between a non-existent god, and the god you describe that does nothing. How could you tell the difference? And what would a world with no god in it look like? (probably exactly like the world we live in where toddlers starve to death by the thousands)
Good day mayne, and good luck
Of course those kids starving isnt god's fault, he doesnt exist. Of course those kids starving is man's fault, because man exists. Again, your explanation is designed to explain that there is a all powerful god controlling everything, but it just seems like he doesnt exist.
I am not ingrained in my stance, my stance is supported by literally ALL of the evidence. What you have continually done is explain why your god doesnt do anything, except the one time you say he helped you do Matrix moves, that no one else seemed to notice or be impressed by.
Now, obviously I dont expect your entire world view to change in a couple days, it took 18 years to get you to this point. But what I hope for is these conversations and points to sit in the back of your mind to think about for the future,
Perhaps ponder the question; what is the difference between a non-existent god, and the god you describe that does nothing. How could you tell the difference? And what would a world with no god in it look like? (probably exactly like the world we live in where toddlers starve to death by the thousands)
Good day mayne, and good luck
I wish we could switch places for one day so you could see things as ive seen them.
But it is what it is breh have a good one