:snoop: This nicca was my football coach for a couple years in Pop Warner

[intilectual recipricol]

who told you that? I haven't read that one. I have heard people say that before. Judas believed in Christ, scripture says it would have been better for him if he hadn't been born. I mean, one can accept Christ and then live in a back slidden state. One can accept Christ and blaspheme

John 3:16... you know the verse people love to whip out. Also, if Judas hadnt "betrayed" Jesus, then what happens to god's plan? This is another part of the myth that makes absolutely no sense. Besides if you read the gospel of Judas youd know that he and Jesus were in cahoots in the story book.

The bible was in severe need of an editor.

 

[MostReal]

That ole COGIC brings back some very great memories & some very bad ones.

'The Church' is ugh... I just hate the acting man...that mask is serious.





To the Followers of Christ...why are you arguing with non-believers?

 

[LurkMoar]

You are indeed correct, if there was evidence you wouldnt need faith. However, this extends to your anecdote, if you wouldnt mind divulging the details I am absolutely sure there is a natural explanation for it and certainly doesnt point to a "god of christianity". And I have no issues with you admitting the lack of evidence, that does not make up for the evidence against though.

The human brain is a powerful thing friend, not always reliable, but powerful.
I have read that historians agree a man named Jesus lived. Here's the great thing about history that is different from math and sciences... we all have the ability to do the leg work. It takes no special training, other than possibly the ability to read ancient languages, but with people translating there is no need for it. So while from what I have read, most historians agree a man named Jesus lived, they dont co-sign the notion that this rabbi did anything supernatural. And in the case of the prolific miracles written in the bible performed by Jesus, the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. Hell, even in the bible another Jesus "Son of the Father" or something similar was crucified, which makes this Jesus story not even unique in the bible, and suggests that this whole thing was common place.
I dont know what they told you in HS, when I was in HS we hardly talked about it, but if thats what you got from your class, you either misunderstood the lesson or they taught it wrong, and I urge you to educate yourself with credible peer reviewed sources. If you like I can get them. As for scientific theory, you are mistaking the word "theory" to mean "unsupported idea" in science, everything is a theory. Gravity is a "theory," an accepted theory until better evidence comes along... until then objects that are dropped will fall, and the moon will bring in the tides. Evolution is an accepted fact, its the same reason there is a new flu vaccine every year, the flu virus evolves.

I ask that you scrutinize your beliefs, its the only way we have of separating truth from fiction. Right from wrong.

So if you dont mind, your anecdotal evidence... you can even PM it if you dont want it across the forum...

have no prob sharing breh

Litle back story here, i was born in africa (the motherland ) and my parent were actually pretty famous missionaries traveling up and down the west coast of africa. The went to crusades from ghana to south africa ( crusades are like these huge events were people go to get saved or have miracles performed on them or witness such miracles)

I was a litle kid most of this time a did not really know whart was going on, i knew somthing was going down. I saw demons cast out and i saw people recieving the holy spirit. Saw the blind healed and a lame man walk again ( i wont lie i was when i would see people recieve the holy spirit and just fall to the ground like that, was mad funny to me )
Fast foward a litle bit and me and my parents are living in senegal, dirt poor country btw. Trying to start a church and a ministry, i had been raised in chruch all my life and i had seen all these great things and geat works of God but i never had anything happen to me personally.

So when i was around 9 years old, me and my parents were living in this small house right next a major road, and this is africa breh when it comes to driving there are no rules breh . Im not even kidding man, theres no line seperating the two sides of the street.. Cars regularly dip in and out of traffic to get were there going. So i was living with my parents and i was feeling pretty hungry, there was a sandwich shop across the street next to my house. I ask my mom for some money to go buy some food and she gives me some.

This is the senquence of what happens next.

Mom- heres some money, make sure you look both ways before crossing

Me- yay money

I run out the door and i actually look both ways, i notice theres a car coming but it looks pretty far off and im like i can make it


DEAD wrong breh

I remember looking at the other side of the street and then i hear a loud noise coming from my left, i turn left and theres a car about to run me over.

 

[LurkMoar]

Turns out i had 13 pages in the original post so heres the rest.


Im like this is how i die.

And then somebody grabs my arm and pulls me acrross to the other side, the car brakes forward a litle bit further out.

Im like " Who pulled me out?! " People start swarming askign me if im okay but all i keep saying is who pulled me out. Nobody says anything and i keep asking everyones is like "nobody touched you".

The car driver comes to me and has this face the whole time That was the day breh, i new God had saved my life and thats when i finally had my Moment with the Lord.

Its the reason why im a christian breh, ive also had other instances later on in life where ive felted the that the lord was with me but that was the moment that changed my life.

I moved to america when i was 10 and have been living here ever since, im 18 now and i can still remember every exact detail of what happend that day breh. I Know my posting style is not very formal but this all truth breh, btw can i ask you why you choose to be an athiest? Did you use to be involved in the church and decided it was not for you? or were just never into religion?

 

[LurkMoar]

That ole COGIC brings back some very great memories & some very bad ones.

'The Church' is ugh... I just hate the acting man...that mask is serious.





To the Followers of Christ...why are you arguing with non-believers?

I hate the mask too breh, people try to force you to be a certain way if you want to follow the lord.


Im like come as you are

 

[intilectual recipricol]

@LurkMoar

interesting anecdote. I'll address...

First, with the faith-healings. This is from Cancer.org

"Although it is known that a small percentage of people with cancer experience remissions of their disease that cannot be explained, available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can actually cure physical ailments. When a person believes strongly that a healer can create a cure, a “placebo effect” can occur. The placebo effect can make the person feel better, but it has not been found to induce remission or improve chance of survival from cancer. The patient usually credits the improvement in how he or she feels to the healer, even though the perceived improvement occurs because of the patient’s belief in the treatment. Taking part in faith healing can evoke the power of suggestion and affirm one’s faith in a higher power, which may help promote peace of mind. This may help some people cope more effectively with their illness.

One review published in 1998 looked at 172 cases of deaths among children treated by faith healing instead of conventional methods. These researchers estimated that if conventional treatment had been given, the survival rate for most of these children would have been more than 90 percent, with the remainder of the children also having a good chance of survival. A more recent study found that more than 200 children had died of treatable illnesses in the United States over the past thirty years because their parents relied on spiritual healing rather than conventional medical treatment..."



this exposes faith healing. The fact of the matter is things that have been claimed to be healed through faith or by god are 100% of the time ambiguous. Things that the person may not have had (blindness) or things that have been known to fix by themselves like cancer occasionally (the body does have mechanisms to fix itself). Never is an unambiguous healing claimed. God and faith healers never fix an amputee. You will never go to a faith healer and see them regrow a leg back, which would be no problem for a supernatural all powerful god, yet it doesnt happen. Ever.

As for the car incident, its likely that you were hallucinating. Its not uncommon at all. Another issue with anecdotal evidence is that it typically revolves around you and ignores anecdotal evidence to the contrary. For example Man Dies After Being Struck by Car on Goose Island - DNAinfo.com Chicago if your story is evidence FOR god, this story is evidence against god. Which is the more likely event, god knowing you were going to be crossing the street and step right in front of a car well before it actually happened, waited until the last possible second to yank you back instead of just making sure you saw the car, or making you wait to go to the store for ummmm 5 more seconds; AND simply watches as the man in my link is struck by the Hyundai and killed with no intervention at all...

Or...

there was no god, and your reflexes allowed you to avoid the car, where his reflexes did not. This is also an example of natural selection, where your car dodging ability allows you to pass on those genes to the population where the other poor chap cannot.

As for me, I did not choose to be an atheist. I was raised in the church for the 1st 18 years of my life, maybe a little longer since I came home from college and went to church then too... I believed in the bible and Jesus and all that. However, I am by nature skeptical of everything. At some point in my childhood I had questions that were never answered to my satisfaction in sunday school and church... like how come in the bible there's all this magic happening, but NONE now?

I had several Muslim friends growing up (still do), and my curiosity lead me to asking questions about what they believed. One of them was that Jesus was a prophet for Islam. This peaked my interest and I borrowed a Qu'ran from one of them and I searched for specific things because I didnt know exactly where to read. One was this Jesus (Isa) stuff. In it, Jesus denies that he ever says he was god, "Why would I say that which I had no right to say?" So, I went back to my bible and looked for a definitive "I am god" from Jesus... quite frankly its not in there. Only vague references that as I understood, any Christian should be able to say ie "If you have seen me you have seen the Father," and "I and the Father are one"... The way I saw it as a Christian, if I was living up to my duties then I should be able to say those same things. And if that was supposed to be the most important thing about Jesus, shouldnt he come out and say it?

It lead me to question everything I was ever taught (including non-religious stuff). Why would god set up a plan that appeared to be a shell game but have the greatest consequences... Thats basically where my investigation STARTS. Its too extensive to include into this post, but there's a lot of information out there that can help you to understand how religions have come about, evolved, how the bible came to be, how it evolved to what we see today, how the church was started and grew, and evolved, etc... a lot of it is eye opening.

The science stuff came last...

 

[LurkMoar]

@LurkMoar

interesting anecdote. I'll address...

First, with the faith-healings. This is from Cancer.org

"Although it is known that a small percentage of people with cancer experience remissions of their disease that cannot be explained, available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can actually cure physical ailments. When a person believes strongly that a healer can create a cure, a “placebo effect” can occur. The placebo effect can make the person feel better, but it has not been found to induce remission or improve chance of survival from cancer. The patient usually credits the improvement in how he or she feels to the healer, even though the perceived improvement occurs because of the patient’s belief in the treatment. Taking part in faith healing can evoke the power of suggestion and affirm one’s faith in a higher power, which may help promote peace of mind. This may help some people cope more effectively with their illness.

One review published in 1998 looked at 172 cases of deaths among children treated by faith healing instead of conventional methods. These researchers estimated that if conventional treatment had been given, the survival rate for most of these children would have been more than 90 percent, with the remainder of the children also having a good chance of survival. A more recent study found that more than 200 children had died of treatable illnesses in the United States over the past thirty years because their parents relied on spiritual healing rather than conventional medical treatment..."

Derren Brown - Miracles for Sale - YouTube

this exposes faith healing. The fact of the matter is things that have been claimed to be healed through faith or by god are 100% of the time ambiguous. Things that the person may not have had (blindness) or things that have been known to fix by themselves like cancer occasionally (the body does have mechanisms to fix itself). Never is an unambiguous healing claimed. God and faith healers never fix an amputee. You will never go to a faith healer and see them regrow a leg back, which would be no problem for a supernatural all powerful god, yet it doesnt happen. Ever.

As for the car incident, its likely that you were hallucinating. Its not uncommon at all. Another issue with anecdotal evidence is that it typically revolves around you and ignores anecdotal evidence to the contrary. For example Man Dies After Being Struck by Car on Goose Island - DNAinfo.com Chicago if your story is evidence FOR god, this story is evidence against god. Which is the more likely event, god knowing you were going to be crossing the street and step right in front of a car well before it actually happened, waited until the last possible second to yank you back instead of just making sure you saw the car, or making you wait to go to the store for ummmm 5 more seconds; AND simply watches as the man in my link is struck by the Hyundai and killed with no intervention at all...

Or...

there was no god, and your reflexes allowed you to avoid the car, where his reflexes did not. This is also an example of natural selection, where your car dodging ability allows you to pass on those genes to the population where the other poor chap cannot.

As for me, I did not choose to be an atheist. I was raised in the church for the 1st 18 years of my life, maybe a little longer since I came home from college and went to church then too... I believed in the bible and Jesus and all that. However, I am by nature skeptical of everything. At some point in my childhood I had questions that were never answered to my satisfaction in sunday school and church... like how come in the bible there's all this magic happening, but NONE now?

I had several Muslim friends growing up (still do), and my curiosity lead me to asking questions about what they believed. One of them was that Jesus was a prophet for Islam. This peaked my interest and I borrowed a Qu'ran from one of them and I searched for specific things because I didnt know exactly where to read. One was this Jesus (Isa) stuff. In it, Jesus denies that he ever says he was god, "Why would I say that which I had no right to say?" So, I went back to my bible and looked for a definitive "I am god" from Jesus... quite frankly its not in there. Only vague references that as I understood, any Christian should be able to say ie "If you have seen me you have seen the Father," and "I and the Father are one"... The way I saw it as a Christian, if I was living up to my duties then I should be able to say those same things. And if that was supposed to be the most important thing about Jesus, shouldnt he come out and say it?

It lead me to question everything I was ever taught (including non-religious stuff). Why would god set up a plan that appeared to be a shell game but have the greatest consequences... Thats basically where my investigation STARTS. Its too extensive to include into this post, but there's a lot of information out there that can help you to understand how religions have come about, evolved, how the bible came to be, how it evolved to what we see today, how the church was started and grew, and evolved, etc... a lot of it is eye opening.

The science stuff came last...

I know for sure i was not hallucinating breh my mom nearly killed me for nearly killing myself

And your just going to have to trust me on this one breh no 9 year old has reflexes like that, on some matrix revolutions lol.

And about the video i can show you hundreds of videos that show miracles happen that people cant explain, im sorry man but ive seen these things happen with my own two eyes. If it was my pastor or something that told me these miracles happened then yea i would be skeptical, but i saw them man. It may not seem like these works of "magic" happen now a days but trust me man it does, ive seen peoples lives change. You cant tell me terminal cancer just gets healed by itself breh.

I also want to clear up a misconception i think people have

Alot of people seem to think Christianity = Church and its just not true, Christianity is about having a personal relationship with the Lord.

During your 18 years of chruch did you just go because its what your parents and your family was doing? Did you actually want to go? Di you really feel like you connected with the lord or was it more of a trip you went to every Sunday with the fam?

Also about the Jesus saying he was God i think i found something to explain it better http://www.apologeticsguy.com/2012/01/did-jesus-say-he-was-god/

 

[intilectual recipricol]

I know for sure i was not hallucinating breh my mom nearly killed me for nearly killing myself

And your just going to have to trust me on this one breh no 9 year old has reflexes like that, on some matrix revolutions lol.

And about the video i can show you hundreds of videos that show miracles happen that people cant explain, im sorry man but ive seen these things happen with my own two eyes. If it was my pastor or something that told me these miracles happened then yea i would be skeptical, but i saw them man. It may not seem like these works of "magic" happen now a days but trust me man it does, ive seen peoples lives change. You cant tell me terminal cancer just gets healed by itself breh.

I also want to clear up a misconception i think people have

Alot of people seem to think Christianity = Church and its just not true, Christianity is about having a personal relationship with the Lord.

During your 18 years of chruch did you just go because its what your parents and your family was doing? Did you actually want to go? Di you really feel like you connected with the lord or was it more of a trip you went to every Sunday with the fam?

Also about the Jesus saying he was God i think i found something to explain it better http://www.apologeticsguy.com/2012/01/did-jesus-say-he-was-god/

I dont mean hallucinated the event itself, rather the someone pulling you part... if there was no one else around. Had you done Matrix stuff, then the people you said were around you that you spoke to afterwards would have noticed. You did not mention it, so its safe to assume they were unimpressed by the event. But it may have felt like the Matrix.

If you can show videos of actual healings, then by all means lets have them. Truthfully, if they existed, then there would be no atheists. However the healings would have to be unambiguous because things like cancer have been known to fix themselvels (remission). As I stated in the previous post, regenerating an amputated leg would be evidence enough. Because we have no natural explanation for that, and oddly enough, we also have no example of it occurring by faith healers either. Had it happened we would find out about it, just like we find out about crosses on goldfish crackers, the "virgin" Mary on toast, or Jesus on a dogs butt. But the truth is, the magic does not happen.

A world in which magic happened would be much different from the world we live in. The world youre describing has no need for doctors, medicine, and hospitals. The world youre describing has no need for machines that move heavy objects or dynamite to blow through mountains. At my job, instead of paying tree removal companies to use cranes to take trees off of homes, we could simply hire a Christian who could pray that the trees were off of homes... and we would save millions of dollars. But thats not the world we live in. None of those professions are in danger of being outsourced to Christians with the power of prayer.

As for my 18 or so years, absolutely, I was going for years before I decided to "give my life to Christ" and "accept" him. Theres definitely a "feeling" there. However, what we should do is see exactly what that feeling is. Do you think people of ALL faiths dont get that same feeling? Faiths that you and I would both agree are false? You think Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, etc dont feel close to their versions of god? I also still get that feeling when spending time with my daughter, or with a loved one, or gazing into the night sky, and even some Pac tracks give me the same exact feeling as this which was my favorite song the choir sang (and we had a kid that could sing his ass off (here is his website Hello, My Name Is ... Charles Hammond, Jr.)

As for the Jesus portion, you went to apologetics 1st and not the bible. Apologetics is used to explain why the bible doesnt say what people say it says. That in of itself is the evidence. Now, lets assume the apologetic answer is even correct, it is a big enough issue for there to be apologetics on. Is this a lack in foresight by Jesus to anticipate that how he stated he was god would not be clear enough? When you write a paper in school, your main point is to be clear and concise as so that there is no confusion. Jesus did a poor job of getting that point across as most of the people that have ever lived dont believe it.

And then of course there is the absence of evidence where we would expect to find it. Literally no one outside of the bible mentions any miracles by this Jesus fellow, and very few mention the person Jesus at all, even then mentions we know of are quite questionable (Josephus). Events such as graves opening up and corpses dancing in the streets would surely make some historian's writings.... however it doesnt. Absence of evidence, is evidence of absence in some cases.

 

[Calmye]

@ some of the lost souls in this thread. God Bless yall

 

[LurkMoar]

I dont mean hallucinated the event itself, rather the someone pulling you part... if there was no one else around. Had you done Matrix stuff, then the people you said were around you that you spoke to afterwards would have noticed. You did not mention it, so its safe to assume they were unimpressed by the event. But it may have felt like the Matrix.

If you can show videos of actual healings, then by all means lets have them. Truthfully, if they existed, then there would be no atheists. However the healings would have to be unambiguous because things like cancer have been known to fix themselvels (remission). As I stated in the previous post, regenerating an amputated leg would be evidence enough. Because we have no natural explanation for that, and oddly enough, we also have no example of it occurring by faith healers either. Had it happened we would find out about it, just like we find out about crosses on goldfish crackers, the "virgin" Mary on toast, or Jesus on a dogs butt. But the truth is, the magic does not happen.

A world in which magic happened would be much different from the world we live in. The world youre describing has no need for doctors, medicine, and hospitals. The world youre describing has no need for machines that move heavy objects or dynamite to blow through mountains. At my job, instead of paying tree removal companies to use cranes to take trees off of homes, we could simply hire a Christian who could pray that the trees were off of homes... and we would save millions of dollars. But thats not the world we live in. None of those professions are in danger of being outsourced to Christians with the power of prayer.

As for my 18 or so years, absolutely, I was going for years before I decided to "give my life to Christ" and "accept" him. Theres definitely a "feeling" there. However, what we should do is see exactly what that feeling is. Do you think people of ALL faiths dont get that same feeling? Faiths that you and I would both agree are false? You think Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, etc dont feel close to their versions of god? I also still get that feeling when spending time with my daughter, or with a loved one, or gazing into the night sky, and even some Pac tracks give me the same exact feeling as this It Wasn't The Nails - Mississippi Mass Choir - YouTube which was my favorite song the choir sang (and we had a kid that could sing his ass off (here is his website Hello, My Name Is ... Charles Hammond, Jr.)

As for the Jesus portion, you went to apologetics 1st and not the bible. Apologetics is used to explain why the bible doesnt say what people say it says. That in of itself is the evidence. Now, lets assume the apologetic answer is even correct, it is a big enough issue for there to be apologetics on. Is this a lack in foresight by Jesus to anticipate that how he stated he was god would not be clear enough? When you write a paper in school, your main point is to be clear and concise as so that there is no confusion. Jesus did a poor job of getting that point across as most of the people that have ever lived dont believe it.

And then of course there is the absence of evidence where we would expect to find it. Literally no one outside of the bible mentions any miracles by this Jesus fellow, and very few mention the person Jesus at all, even then mentions we know of are quite questionable (Josephus). Events such as graves opening up and corpses dancing in the streets would surely make some historian's writings.... however it doesnt. Absence of evidence, is evidence of absence in some cases.

I just deleted my 8 page response on accident

Whatever ill just give you a run down on some things you talked about.

Prayer is like a conversation with the lord, its not just about give me this and fix that. Gods sole purpose is not to fulfill all our needs and wants, he loves us and wants to spend time with us.

Heres some miracles i found on youtube, doest compare to crusades in africa but its the best i could find on youtube. My dad has told me stories of amputees that have grown back body parts but that was before i was born and i did not see it for my self. So i cant honestly use it as evidence for anything





O and there is no "magic" God does not just go alakazam and your healed


Also i think a huge point that you touched on yourself was if miracles happend all the time in the open then there would be no atheist. God does not want that, that would mean that there would be no choice. You could not choose to follow God because following God would be the "logical" thing to do.If there was blatant evidence like that then everyone would be a christain, there would be no need for "faith" or belief really

I get called crazy by my friends sometimes because im in college and im not ou there drinking , smoking or smashing pawgs. Sometimes i wish i could just walk on water and then they would have to become christian

But thats not how it works breh God wants us to choose him, not be forced to because its an obvious thing.

I really wish i was a veteran pastor or minister that could explain my point of view better, theres still alot that i dont know about the faith.

Im just 18 breh so you merking me on the intellectual side of things

Heck you probably no more about the bible than i do

 

[the cac mamba]

That is the great thing about faith breh if there was all this overwhelming evidence then it would not be about faith anymore now would it?
:

yes, which would be a positive thing

 

[the cac mamba]

Turns out i had 13 pages in the original post so heres the rest.


Im like this is how i die.

And then somebody grabs my arm and pulls me acrross to the other side, the car brakes forward a litle bit further out.

Im like " Who pulled me out?! " People start swarming askign me if im okay but all i keep saying is who pulled me out. Nobody says anything and i keep asking everyones is like "nobody touched you".

The car driver comes to me and has this face the whole time That was the day breh, i new God had saved my life and thats when i finally had my Moment with the Lord.

Its the reason why im a christian breh, ive also had other instances later on in life where ive felted the that the lord was with me but that was the moment that changed my life.

I moved to america when i was 10 and have been living here ever since, im 18 now and i can still remember every exact detail of what happend that day breh. I Know my posting style is not very formal but this all truth breh, btw can i ask you why you choose to be an athiest? Did you use to be involved in the church and decided it was not for you? or were just never into religion?

how do you know that it wasnt zeus who saved you? just because christianity is the flavor of the month, doesnt mean that it was jesus who pulled you out of the way of the ca...

 

[LurkMoar]

how do you know that it wasnt zeus who saved you? just because christianity is the flavor of the month, doesnt mean that it was jesus who pulled you out of the way of the ca...

Im glad we were able to have a positive discussion about each others point of view breh

Tell you what when we both die ask me again if it was zeus that saved me from the car

Nice input breh

 

[the cac mamba]

Im glad we were able to have a positive discussion about each others point of view breh

Tell you what when we both die ask me again if it was zeus that saved me from the car

Nice input breh

:belip: man, shut the fukk up you dont know what happens when we die any more than i do

actually, while were on the topic, are you finally a black christian on this site thats willing to address that last post in my sig?

 

[LurkMoar]

:belip: man, shut the fukk up you dont know what happens when we die any more than i do

actually, while were on the topic, are you finally a black christian on this site thats willing to address that last post in my sig?

Nope im not going to shut up, you just popped in here and came at me when i was having legit discussions with a legit poster. Who you think you are plai boi?

And i think i know whats going to happen when i die, im willing to bet eternity on it You just keep living that lifestyle if you want, its your choice. Hope you choose right


And i think the slavery thing is wrong, God did not plan for black people to get captured so they would become Christians

Christians are supposed to share Gods love to all nations, it would have gotten to Africa eventually.