Skip and Shannon list their all time top 10

[Swagnificent]

You think team records in the regular season means that players are the same?

The Bucks and Celtics each won 51 games this year. Are Giannis and Tatum the same now?


That’s your logic?
Ok I’ve had enough of this. Lmao.

No. Team records just give us a good starting point. The actual manner in which the games unfold is what tells us who the better player is. Which is why I focused chiefly on the fact the Spurs had huge leads in Game 1 and Game 5 only for those leads to evaporate late in large part due to the play of Kobe Bryant. I'm sure if Duncan had won those games late with his clutch play you would have made that a focus of your argument. But that's not what happened hence why you keep ignoring this point.

The truth is you do remember watching those games. And you knew deep down even though you hated it that Kobe was the superior player. Because with those games right there for the taking your guy was irrelevant while Kobe Bryant looked superhuman. Its why most people who are honest with themselves rank Kobe as the superior player. Because they remember moments like that. And they knew at that moment there was zero chance Duncan was in the same galaxy as Kobe Bryant when it came to dominance at the game of basketball.

 

[A Tribe Called Quest ™]

You d riding a Jewish nikka bro?

 

[Remote]

No. Team records just give us a good starting point. The actual manner in which the games unfold is what tells us who the better player is. Which is why I focused chiefly on the fact the Spurs had huge leads in Game 1 and Game 5 only for those leads to evaporate late in large part due to the play of Kobe Bryant. I'm sure if Duncan had won those games late with his clutch play you would have made that a focus of your argument. But that's not what happened hence why you keep ignoring this point.

The truth is you do remember watching those games. And you knew deep down even though you hated it that Kobe was the superior player. Because with those games right there for the taking your guy was irrelevant while Kobe Bryant looked superhuman. Its why most people who are honest with themselves rank Kobe as the superior player. Because they remember moments like that. And they knew at that moment there was zero chance Duncan was in the same galaxy as Kobe Bryant when it came to dominance at the game of basketball.

It’s clear from your own comments that the basis for your understanding of basketball relies solely on what “looks” like a good basketball player rather than what IS a good basketball player.

And that’s not even addressing the major hole that you somehow think a handful of playoff games over the course of a 1300 game career defines anyone.

I really don’t understand how you’ve failed to grasp these concepts when people have routinely tossed them at you for years.

 

[Rekkapryde]

Shaq was quicker, more agile and nimble than Wilt. Shaq had waaaaay better footwork and a more polish post game than Wilt. Shaq was definitely stronger than Wilt.
Wilt was probably faster, but not by much to a prime Orlando -90's L.A pre-toe injury Shaq.
Shaq at his peak was a speciman we've never seen... We see it in bit of piecies in Giannis, and Zion... But Shaq

 

[Shadow King]

Where do you personally rank Kobe, bro?

SI's 50 greatest players in NBA history

Michael Jordan. LeBron James. Stephen Curry. Who else? On the 20–year anniversary of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA history, SI.com's Jack McCallum revises his list.

www.si.com

All-Time #NBArank: The greatest players ever

We're counting down the greatest players in NBA history.

es.pn

Bleacher Report's All-Time Player Rankings: NBA's Top 50 Revealed

A total of 4,374 players have appeared in at least one NBA game. How can anyone whittle that number down to the top 50? Attempting to create that list is an excruciating endeavor...

syndication.bleacherreport.com

CBS Sports' 50 greatest NBA players of all time: Where do LeBron, Curry rank?

Twenty years after the NBA celebrated its original 50 greatest, we're updating things a bit

www.cbssports.com

🐐 SLAM's Top 100 Players Of All-Time: Michael Jordan, No. 1 🐐

Fueled by doubters, MJ went on to win six championships, six Finals MVPs, five regular season MVPs, and 10 scoring titles.

www.slamonline.com

These are 5 respected and reputable sports rags, just to give examples. Pre-death, the outlier was SLAM having Kobe at #5, the other four ranked him between 10 and 14 with an average ranking of 12; all five entities combined give him an average ranking of 10.6...

The complete turnabout on Kobe as a Top 10 lock, much less debatable Top 5, is attributable to the emotions The Culture collectively has for him that rushed out once he passed...

The spillover effect is that in the short term, for at least a half-decade following his death, his career and his work will be inflated to heights he wasn't at while alive. In life, aside from 20% outliers like SLAM and individuals who mainly were Kobe Stans, Kobe's place as a Top 10 GOAT was hotly contested---->he was not in any way viewed as a locked in GOAT 10 guy...

But he obviously had the resume and work on the board that having him in the discussion was more than fair; honestly the pre-death consensus on Kobe was parallel to where Steph is actively right now: debatable Top 10 so if he sneaks into someone's back end GOAT 10 it isn't really anything to get riled about, certainly GOAT 15, and there are 20% outliers (shout out to @Ohene ) who rank him as Top 5 as is...

That is EXACTLY where Kobe was at before he passed...

This board is overrun with Kobe heads, so of course the majority opinion on here wont mirror the consensus within The Culture. I'm saying all this to say, if Kobe was alive, given that he already debatably wasn't a GOAT 10 player, its entirely feasible he'd gradually shift further from GOAT 10 discourse...

Since his death 29 months ago he's risen from a borderline Top 10 guy to a Top 10 lock and many more people arguing for him as Top 5, though nothing on the floor has happened to actually warrant this huge leap in perception. It is what is. The further we are removed from his passing, we'll gradually shift back to where his placement makes sense...

For the record I have him in the 8-10 range, i dont think there is any strong argument for him higher than the 8th greatest player ever and certainly not Top 5; I also think any ranking below 12 is too low but it's not wild to me if someone says Kobe isn't in their Top 10----->that was a majority opinion before he died...



Most Bron heads don't factor in Kobe with how they view Bron. They grade them separately unless directly compared. If I'm evaluating Kobe's historical place it's based on him and where he fits amongst ALL the historical titans; Kobe heads made up this propaganda that if someone has an opinion on Kobe it has to correlate with how they view LeBron, and that just ain't the wave...

Kobe is in my Top 10, after the first 4 of Jordan-Bron-Kareem-Magic my rankings aren't hardwired, but he's essentially in the same range you have. The security of his spot is likely solidified by the fact that I don't have Bill in it due to the unique of his situation/responsibilities (Hakeem essentially replaces him). I also still have Wilt in it but after understanding the context of his stats through his playing habits he's not locked in at #5 like he was, which gives Kobe room to not necessarily be capped at #8-ish.

In no way shape or form. Am I saying he's top 5 Lol

 

[Shadow King]

Because of Bron/media bias. I will never fw Bron because imo, he had to create superteams to get his rings. But lets say I did think Bron was that nikka. It wouldn't make me hate Kobe. But for Bron stans, its not enough for them for Bron to be potentially called the GOAT. Kobe also has to be irrelevant. Which is bizarre. It would be like having Brady as the GOAT QB then having Manning ranked as the 10th QB. You would say anybody who thinks like that is clearly just biased against Manning, or against Kobe in this case. Its all good though. Bron gonna retire one day too.

 

[Harry B]

I have a hard time trusting most of these guys, Shannon probably didn’t watch basketball until he got his job and might just not like Shaq as a person. Skip is a world class troll. The old head nba guys are haters and on. The new guys like JJ basically only seen most of these guys on highlight.


The big problem with lists stretching all time is that you need to be 70 years old. You need to be able to adjust for the difference in rules, difference in competition, difference in the super team formations and on. In baseball it’s even worse, these dudes comparing dudes in 2022 to dudes who were longshoremen while playing the World Series in 1905.

shyts impossible.

But it’s fun to play with the thought of us being able to do that.

 

[Harry B]

Also Shannon thinks like a NFL legend or even coach, the physical aspect, the hunger, discipline and dedication to the game are his premier metrics. That’s why I’m shocked that he didn’t put Kobe higher.

 

[murksiderock]

I am a biased Warriors fan admittedly.

If I am being realistic, Steph is #7 on the list. However, I give him extra ratings because of his size and lack of athleticism (in the traditional sense: speed, strength etc.). P4P nobody is better except Jordan

Don't know about this "pound for pound" thing...

We're doing this thing with Steph now where we act like no one else has been as dominant as he is offensively. That isn't fair to any of the GOATs who demonstrated that a)an elite offense could be built around them; b)they could carry the offensive weight and responsibility over a period of time; c)were dominant despite engineering their offense differently...

He is one of the GOATs because offensively, he's on a really short list of the most dynamic offensive players ever--->really short list...

But he isn't the only one on that short list and I have a real problem with the favoritism he's getting in comparison to other guys who were absolute titans on that end too---->some while having far greater defensive impact than Steph as well (and for the record I'm not one if these guys who thinks Steph is a poor defender and I also am on the record many times as saying I think '16 Steph is one of the five greatest individual years EVER)...

I respect that you're self-aware enough to admit your bias colors your analysis of Steph in comparison to other GOATs. For me, it's kinda soon to say he's any higher than back-end Top 10 at best, and it's very much still arguable that he isn't GOAT 10, by no means is he locked in beyond a shadow of a doubt. But without a doubt he's in the conversation, it's a real thing...

Shaq had Kobe to be fair

Duncan never had a superstar teammate like that. Robinson was old, and kawhi was young.


I will give you that Duncan's peaks weren't as high as Kobe though. Duncan also has his bad playoff losses minimized and sanitized.

I don't agree that Duncan didn't peak as highly as Kobe...

They peaked back-to-back rather than at the same time, Duncan's peak was around 2000-05 and Kobe's was around 2005-10...

There are some things to nitpick with both at peak, so all things fair, the biggest difference is that Peak Duncan was leading near 60-win seasons with sub-15ppg scorers as his highest scoring teammate...

'01 Spurs: his best teammates were Robinson and Anderson, won 58 games, L WCF
'02: Robinson and Smith (keep in mind this is a steadily declining Admiral with each passing season), won 58 games, lost WCSF
'03: Parker and who? Bowen? Rose? He won the title with this team, won 60 games
'04: Manu and Parker, won 57 games, L WCSF
'05: Manu and Parker, won 59 games, W Finals

Peak Duncan was shouldering an extremely heavy burden on offense until basically '05, and of course was the centerpiece of that Spurs defense...

Peak Kobe by comparison:

'06: Odom and Smush, won 45 games, L Rd1
'07: Odom and Bynum, won 42 games, L Rd1
'08: Pau and Odom, won 57 games, L Finals
'09: Pau and Odom, won 65 games, W Finals
'10: Pau and Odom, won 57 games, W Finals

I highlighted the second and third best players on both guys' teams at peak, but you can continue down the rosters in the same fashion. There is no dramatic talent discrepancy surrounding both peak-for-peak, but what jumps off the page is Duncan was the greater floor raiser...

And this is where Duncan gets underrated a bit. At his peak the Spurs bottomed out at 57 wins and a Semis loss. Peak versions of Kobe saw first round exits and win totals in the low to mid-40s. You couldnt anchor a defense around Peak Kobe; also Duncan's game was more portable in the types of players who could thrive playing next to him...

Duncan was the Pre-Chef...

This hurts Kobe with a numver of GOAT-level guys, too. Couldn’t anchor a defense around him, didnt necessarily elevate his teammates to optimum level, was less coachable, could get tunnel vision, etc...

I think its fair to say they peaked around the same degree, but if I had to say one guy peaked slightly higher it wasn't Bean, gimme the guy who was winning 57+ games with rosters Kobe was struggling to hit 45 with Lamar Odom as his wingman...

I think we have all said many times already that the only people to change their tune on Kobe's ranking all-time after death was the media (in particular the WHITE media). As you point out the only media publication to give Kobe anywhere close to the same level of respect he gets from the players and fans is unsurprisingly SLAM magazine. The only publication with leanings toward hip-hop culture and the black community.

Before Kobe died, he was ranked highly by his peers (other NBA players) and fans. Remember when the Athletic polled current NBA players on who the GOAT was?

This is how the GOAT debate really plays out everywhere else outside of white sports media. There is no Jordan vs LeBron debate. MJ is the consensus GOAT. However, there is a Kobe vs LeBron debate with just as much (if not more people) favoring Kobe than LeBron.

The media (like Bron stans) had to diminish Kobe in order to uplift LeBron into a debate with Jordan that is clearly undeserved.

I just love your lack of self-awareness ...

Tim was better all around and won just as much, shyt even more
Just keeping it a buck
Popovich sacrificed a lot of Tim's individual stats if that's the metric you look at

Anybody trying to compare Kobe and Duncan by box score metrics is missing it all. And anyone who was cognizant of ball at the time and is even partially objective remembers a period where Duncan was clearly, clearly seen as a level of player higher than Kobe...

Was it LAL vs SAS or Kobe vs Tim?

And if you want to ignore that and insist on H2H, go talk about Kobe vs Lebron H2H.

Nah, H2H only works when he says so ...

 

[Ohene]

Don't know about this "pound for pound" thing...

We're doing this thing with Steph now where we act like no one else has been as dominant as he is offensively. That isn't fair to any of the GOATs who demonstrated that a)an elite offense could be built around them; b)they could carry the offensive weight and responsibility over a period of time; c)were dominant despite engineering their offense differently...

He is one of the GOATs because offensively, he's on a really short list of the most dynamic offensive players ever--->really short list...

But he isn't the only one on that short list and I have a real problem with the favoritism he's getting in comparison to other guys who were absolute titans on that end too---->some while having far greater defensive impact than Steph as well (and for the record I'm not one if these guys who thinks Steph is a poor defender and I also am on the record many times as saying I think '16 Steph is one of the five greatest individual years EVER)...

I respect that you're self-aware enough to admit your bias colors your analysis of Steph in comparison to other GOATs. For me, it's kinda soon to say he's any higher than back-end Top 10 at best, and it's very much still arguable that he isn't GOAT 10, by no means is he locked in beyond a shadow of a doubt. But without a doubt he's in the conversation, it's a real thing...



I don't agree that Duncan didn't peak as highly as Kobe...

They peaked back-to-back rather than at the same time, Duncan's peak was around 2000-05 and Kobe's was around 2005-10...

There are some things to nitpick with both at peak, so all things fair, the biggest difference is that Peak Duncan was leading near 60-win seasons with sub-15ppg scorers as his highest scoring teammate...

'01 Spurs: his best teammates were Robinson and Anderson, won 58 games, L WCF
'02: Robinson and Smith (keep in mind this is a steadily declining Admiral with each passing season), won 58 games, lost WCSF
'03: Parker and who? Bowen? Rose? He won the title with this team, won 60 games
'04: Manu and Parker, won 57 games, L WCSF
'05: Manu and Parker, won 59 games, W Finals

Peak Duncan was shouldering an extremely heavy burden on offense until basically '05, and of course was the centerpiece of that Spurs defense...

Peak Kobe by comparison:

'06: Odom and Smush, won 45 games, L Rd1
'07: Odom and Bynum, won 42 games, L Rd1
'08: Pau and Odom, won 57 games, L Finals
'09: Pau and Odom, won 65 games, W Finals
'10: Pau and Odom, won 57 games, W Finals

I highlighted the second and third best players on both guys' teams at peak, but you can continue down the rosters in the same fashion. There is no dramatic talent discrepancy surrounding both peak-for-peak, but what jumps off the page is Duncan was the greater floor raiser...

And this is where Duncan gets underrated a bit. At his peak the Spurs bottomed out at 57 wins and a Semis loss. Peak versions of Kobe saw first round exits and win totals in the low to mid-40s. You couldnt anchor a defense around Peak Kobe; also Duncan's game was more portable in the types of players who could thrive playing next to him...

Duncan was the Pre-Chef...

This hurts Kobe with a numver of GOAT-level guys, too. Couldn’t anchor a defense around him, didnt necessarily elevate his teammates to optimum level, was less coachable, could get tunnel vision, etc...

I think its fair to say they peaked around the same degree, but if I had to say one guy peaked slightly higher it wasn't Bean, gimme the guy who was winning 57+ games with rosters Kobe was struggling to hit 45 with Lamar Odom as his wingman...



I just love your lack of self-awareness ...



Anybody trying to compare Kobe and Duncan by box score metrics is missing it all. And anyone who was cognizant of ball at the time and is even partially objective remembers a period where Duncan was clearly, clearly seen as a level of player higher than Kobe...



Nah, H2H only works when he says so ...

Not reading all this

 

[Reign X]

Duncan’s ahead of Kobe. Think age of people plays a part, as they might not clearly remember 99-03 Duncan. Him and Shaq were top two during that time.

And Russell is high up on my list. Ultimate winner and not just when he had better teams. Beat wilt as underdog twice I believe.

 

[KidJSoul]

Don't know about this "pound for pound" thing...

We're doing this thing with Steph now where we act like no one else has been as dominant as he is offensively. That isn't fair to any of the GOATs who demonstrated that a)an elite offense could be built around them; b)they could carry the offensive weight and responsibility over a period of time; c)were dominant despite engineering their offense differently...

He is one of the GOATs because offensively, he's on a really short list of the most dynamic offensive players ever--->really short list...

But he isn't the only one on that short list and I have a real problem with the favoritism he's getting in comparison to other guys who were absolute titans on that end too---->some while having far greater defensive impact than Steph as well (and for the record I'm not one if these guys who thinks Steph is a poor defender and I also am on the record many times as saying I think '16 Steph is one of the five greatest individual years EVER)...

I respect that you're self-aware enough to admit your bias colors your analysis of Steph in comparison to other GOATs. For me, it's kinda soon to say he's any higher than back-end Top 10 at best, and it's very much still arguable that he isn't GOAT 10, by no means is he locked in beyond a shadow of a doubt. But without a doubt he's in the conversation, it's a real thing...



I don't agree that Duncan didn't peak as highly as Kobe...

They peaked back-to-back rather than at the same time, Duncan's peak was around 2000-05 and Kobe's was around 2005-10...

There are some things to nitpick with both at peak, so all things fair, the biggest difference is that Peak Duncan was leading near 60-win seasons with sub-15ppg scorers as his highest scoring teammate...

'01 Spurs: his best teammates were Robinson and Anderson, won 58 games, L WCF
'02: Robinson and Smith (keep in mind this is a steadily declining Admiral with each passing season), won 58 games, lost WCSF
'03: Parker and who? Bowen? Rose? He won the title with this team, won 60 games
'04: Manu and Parker, won 57 games, L WCSF
'05: Manu and Parker, won 59 games, W Finals

Peak Duncan was shouldering an extremely heavy burden on offense until basically '05, and of course was the centerpiece of that Spurs defense...

Peak Kobe by comparison:

'06: Odom and Smush, won 45 games, L Rd1
'07: Odom and Bynum, won 42 games, L Rd1
'08: Pau and Odom, won 57 games, L Finals
'09: Pau and Odom, won 65 games, W Finals
'10: Pau and Odom, won 57 games, W Finals

I highlighted the second and third best players on both guys' teams at peak, but you can continue down the rosters in the same fashion. There is no dramatic talent discrepancy surrounding both peak-for-peak, but what jumps off the page is Duncan was the greater floor raiser...

And this is where Duncan gets underrated a bit. At his peak the Spurs bottomed out at 57 wins and a Semis loss. Peak versions of Kobe saw first round exits and win totals in the low to mid-40s. You couldnt anchor a defense around Peak Kobe; also Duncan's game was more portable in the types of players who could thrive playing next to him...

Duncan was the Pre-Chef...

This hurts Kobe with a numver of GOAT-level guys, too. Couldn’t anchor a defense around him, didnt necessarily elevate his teammates to optimum level, was less coachable, could get tunnel vision, etc...

I think its fair to say they peaked around the same degree, but if I had to say one guy peaked slightly higher it wasn't Bean, gimme the guy who was winning 57+ games with rosters Kobe was struggling to hit 45 with Lamar Odom as his wingman...



I just love your lack of self-awareness ...



Anybody trying to compare Kobe and Duncan by box score metrics is missing it all. And anyone who was cognizant of ball at the time and is even partially objective remembers a period where Duncan was clearly, clearly seen as a level of player higher than Kobe...



Nah, H2H only works when he says so ...

Good arguments for Duncan

 

[Swagnificent]

It’s clear from your own comments that the basis for your understanding of basketball relies solely on what “looks” like a good basketball player rather than what IS a good basketball player.

And that’s not even addressing the major hole that you somehow think a handful of playoff games over the course of a 1300 game career defines anyone.

I really don’t understand how you’ve failed to grasp these concepts when people have routinely tossed them at you for years.

So you're not gonna respond to my argument at all? You know all you had to say was "OK Kobe got Tim that series. And I know Timmy doesn't have the advantage head to head or in the opinion of his peers but....."

But that's not what guys like you do. You don't ever just give props when they are due. To me that's a clear sign of when someone doesn't actually believe in their stated position. I think you want to believe Duncan was better than Kobe because of personal likes or dislikes of the individuals involved. I don't think you actually believe Duncan was better deep down. Because if you did you might actually concede once and awhile when you don't have a good counter argument.

Compare that to me. I've had countless debates with Kobe haters where I freely give ground and admit to Kobe flaws. For example, I'm probably the only Kobe stan who doesn't defend Kobe's 6-24 performance in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals. Sure I bring context to it. I'll mention how it was a low scoring defensive game where everyone was shooting poorly. But nonetheless I also accept the fact Kobe "chocked" in arguably the biggest moment of his career. In a game where he was supposed to be legendary and rise above the odds like he always did, he was rather ordinary. And as a fan of his, I was greatly disappointed. Which is why to this day I don't excuse it. And you'll never see me attacking one of you Kobe haters when you say it was a shyt performance.

And you wanna why? Cause I hold Kobe to a high standard given the fact I truly believed for most of my life that he was the greatest athlete to ever walk the face of the earth. Guys make excuses for people they don't believe in. If you truly believed Duncan was better you would simply concede this point and move on to another argument.

 

[Swagnificent]

Also Shannon thinks like a NFL legend or even coach, the physical aspect, the hunger, discipline and dedication to the game are his premier metrics. That’s why I’m shocked that he didn’t put Kobe higher.

He actually does have Kobe ranked higher. Before he linked up with LeBron and was on Undisputed he used to say Kobe was #2 all-time after Jordan. It's only after he became LeBron's mouthpiece in the media that he started disrespecting Kobe.

 

[Swagnificent]

I just love your lack of self-awareness ...

How does that relate to where Kobe was ranked before death? Is it your contention NBA players didn't rank him right there with LeBron all-time in the GOAT debate? So that poll The Athletic put out in 2019 was fake? 10% of players didn't say Kobe was the GOAT compared to 11% saying LeBron?