Skip and Shannon list their all time top 10

[Ohene]

Where do you personally rank Kobe, bro?

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🐐 SLAM's Top 100 Players Of All-Time: Michael Jordan, No. 1 🐐

Fueled by doubters, MJ went on to win six championships, six Finals MVPs, five regular season MVPs, and 10 scoring titles.

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These are 5 respected and reputable sports rags, just to give examples. Pre-death, the outlier was SLAM having Kobe at #5, the other four ranked him between 10 and 14 with an average ranking of 12; all five entities combined give him an average ranking of 10.6...

The complete turnabout on Kobe as a Top 10 lock, much less debatable Top 5, is attributable to the emotions The Culture collectively has for him that rushed out once he passed...

The spillover effect is that in the short term, for at least a half-decade following his death, his career and his work will be inflated to heights he wasn't at while alive. In life, aside from 20% outliers like SLAM and individuals who mainly were Kobe Stans, Kobe's place as a Top 10 GOAT was hotly contested---->he was not in any way viewed as a locked in GOAT 10 guy...

But he obviously had the resume and work on the board that having him in the discussion was more than fair; honestly the pre-death consensus on Kobe was parallel to where Steph is actively right now: debatable Top 10 so if he sneaks into someone's back end GOAT 10 it isn't really anything to get riled about, certainly GOAT 15, and there are 20% outliers (shout out to @Ohene ) who rank him as Top 5 as is...

That is EXACTLY where Kobe was at before he passed...

This board is overrun with Kobe heads, so of course the majority opinion on here wont mirror the consensus within The Culture. I'm saying all this to say, if Kobe was alive, given that he already debatably wasn't a GOAT 10 player, its entirely feasible he'd gradually shift further from GOAT 10 discourse...

Since his death 29 months ago he's risen from a borderline Top 10 guy to a Top 10 lock and many more people arguing for him as Top 5, though nothing on the floor has happened to actually warrant this huge leap in perception. It is what is. The further we are removed from his passing, we'll gradually shift back to where his placement makes sense...

For the record I have him in the 8-10 range, i dont think there is any strong argument for him higher than the 8th greatest player ever and certainly not Top 5; I also think any ranking below 12 is too low but it's not wild to me if someone says Kobe isn't in their Top 10----->that was a majority opinion before he died...



Most Bron heads don't factor in Kobe with how they view Bron. They grade them separately unless directly compared. If I'm evaluating Kobe's historical place it's based on him and where he fits amongst ALL the historical titans; Kobe heads made up this propaganda that if someone has an opinion on Kobe it has to correlate with how they view LeBron, and that just ain't the wave...

I am a biased Warriors fan admittedly.

If I am being realistic, Steph is #7 on the list. However, I give him extra ratings because of his size and lack of athleticism (in the traditional sense: speed, strength etc.). P4P nobody is better except Jordan

 

[Methodical]

Shannon is a LeBron stan so not surprised he put number one.

Skip is a Lebron hater so surprised to see him put in top in 10.

 

[KidJSoul]

He wasn't though. Its revisionism. When was Tim Duncan's era (keyword: era) where he was the greatest basketball player in the NBA? Wasn't the early 2000s because Shaq was killing it then. Wasn't the mid 2000s because Kobe was that guy then. Wasn't the late 2000s because Kobe and Bron were those guys then. When was this mythical period?

Shaq had Kobe to be fair

Duncan never had a superstar teammate like that. Robinson was old, and kawhi was young.


I will give you that Duncan's peaks weren't as high as Kobe though. Duncan also has his bad playoff losses minimized and sanitized.

 

[Ozymandeas]

You are making a “narratives” argument. Nothing you allege is rooted in facts. But I’ll give you a hint that you won’t like: there was never a season, ever, where Kobe Bryant was the single best player in the NBA.

Bryant, like Duncan, was among the best for many years. And Duncan was among the best for more of those years than Bryant was.

Im 34 breh. I was in high school from 2002 to 2006. Then college afterwards. Duncan was never the best player in basketball for an extended period. Even the year he won MVP, he was just okay. You’re going off stats in Basketball Reference because you either weren’t of age back then or you were of age and you know deep down he wasn’t that guy so you trying to act like it’s a narrative argument and that we’re somehow missing the facts. Nah. I remember watching. He has no era. He was just always in the mix. Bron has an era. Steph has an era. Kobe has an era. Jordan had an era. Where they were all dominant and clearly the best player for at least 2-3 years. When was this period for Duncan? Can you even name 5 dominant performances from Duncan in the playoffs?

 

[Remote]

Im 34 breh. I was in high school from 2002 to 2006. Then college afterwards. Duncan was never the best player in basketball for an extended period. Even the year he won MVP, he was just okay. You’re going off stats in Basketball Reference because you either weren’t of age back then or you were of age and you know deep down he wasn’t that guy so you trying to act like it’s a narrative argument and that we’re somehow missing the facts. Nah. I remember watching. He has no era. He was just always in the mix. Bron has an era. Steph has an era. Kobe has an era. Jordan had an era. Where they were all dominant and clearly the best player for at least 2-3 years. When was this period for Duncan? Can you even name 5 dominant performances from Duncan in the playoffs?

Talking about eras is a narrative argument.
I’m older than you and I saw Duncan from his rookie season.

You can’t point to anything that shows Kobe was better than Duncan other than the perception of him in the media or the country. And that’s far different than actual performance and value on the court of basketball.

The reality of the situation is that Kobe is the greater icon. Tim is the better player.

Pointing to specific games or series is nothing more than spin and cherry picking.

Tim’s near quadruple double in a Finals or Kobe’s 81 tell you nothing in the broader context.

Right?
Right.

 

[Swagnificent]

Where do you personally rank Kobe, bro?

SI's 50 greatest players in NBA history

Michael Jordan. LeBron James. Stephen Curry. Who else? On the 20–year anniversary of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA history, SI.com's Jack McCallum revises his list.

www.si.com

All-Time #NBArank: The greatest players ever

We're counting down the greatest players in NBA history.

es.pn

Bleacher Report's All-Time Player Rankings: NBA's Top 50 Revealed

A total of 4,374 players have appeared in at least one NBA game. How can anyone whittle that number down to the top 50? Attempting to create that list is an excruciating endeavor...

syndication.bleacherreport.com

CBS Sports' 50 greatest NBA players of all time: Where do LeBron, Curry rank?

Twenty years after the NBA celebrated its original 50 greatest, we're updating things a bit

www.cbssports.com

🐐 SLAM's Top 100 Players Of All-Time: Michael Jordan, No. 1 🐐

Fueled by doubters, MJ went on to win six championships, six Finals MVPs, five regular season MVPs, and 10 scoring titles.

www.slamonline.com

These are 5 respected and reputable sports rags, just to give examples. Pre-death, the outlier was SLAM having Kobe at #5, the other four ranked him between 10 and 14 with an average ranking of 12; all five entities combined give him an average ranking of 10.6...

The complete turnabout on Kobe as a Top 10 lock, much less debatable Top 5, is attributable to the emotions The Culture collectively has for him that rushed out once he passed...

The spillover effect is that in the short term, for at least a half-decade following his death, his career and his work will be inflated to heights he wasn't at while alive. In life, aside from 20% outliers like SLAM and individuals who mainly were Kobe Stans, Kobe's place as a Top 10 GOAT was hotly contested---->he was not in any way viewed as a locked in GOAT 10 guy...

But he obviously had the resume and work on the board that having him in the discussion was more than fair; honestly the pre-death consensus on Kobe was parallel to where Steph is actively right now: debatable Top 10 so if he sneaks into someone's back end GOAT 10 it isn't really anything to get riled about, certainly GOAT 15, and there are 20% outliers (shout out to @Ohene ) who rank him as Top 5 as is...

That is EXACTLY where Kobe was at before he passed...

This board is overrun with Kobe heads, so of course the majority opinion on here wont mirror the consensus within The Culture. I'm saying all this to say, if Kobe was alive, given that he already debatably wasn't a GOAT 10 player, its entirely feasible he'd gradually shift further from GOAT 10 discourse...

Since his death 29 months ago he's risen from a borderline Top 10 guy to a Top 10 lock and many more people arguing for him as Top 5, though nothing on the floor has happened to actually warrant this huge leap in perception. It is what is. The further we are removed from his passing, we'll gradually shift back to where his placement makes sense...

For the record I have him in the 8-10 range, i dont think there is any strong argument for him higher than the 8th greatest player ever and certainly not Top 5; I also think any ranking below 12 is too low but it's not wild to me if someone says Kobe isn't in their Top 10----->that was a majority opinion before he died...



Most Bron heads don't factor in Kobe with how they view Bron. They grade them separately unless directly compared. If I'm evaluating Kobe's historical place it's based on him and where he fits amongst ALL the historical titans; Kobe heads made up this propaganda that if someone has an opinion on Kobe it has to correlate with how they view LeBron, and that just ain't the wave...

I think we have all said many times already that the only people to change their tune on Kobe's ranking all-time after death was the media (in particular the WHITE media). As you point out the only media publication to give Kobe anywhere close to the same level of respect he gets from the players and fans is unsurprisingly SLAM magazine. The only publication with leanings toward hip-hop culture and the black community.

Before Kobe died, he was ranked highly by his peers (other NBA players) and fans. Remember when the Athletic polled current NBA players on who the GOAT was?

This is how the GOAT debate really plays out everywhere else outside of white sports media. There is no Jordan vs LeBron debate. MJ is the consensus GOAT. However, there is a Kobe vs LeBron debate with just as much (if not more people) favoring Kobe than LeBron.

The media (like Bron stans) had to diminish Kobe in order to uplift LeBron into a debate with Jordan that is clearly undeserved.

 

[Swagnificent]

You can’t point to anything that shows Kobe was better than Duncan

Head to head Kobe beat Duncan in the playoffs without Shaq.

 

[Remote]

Head to head Kobe beat Duncan in the playoffs without Shaq.

Teams win games. Not players.
Amazing that in all these years you never grasped this simple concept.

 

[Swagnificent]

Teams win games. Not players.
Amazing that in all these years you never grasped this simple concept.

Did you even watch that series? Kobe was the reason the Lakers won. In both Game 1 and Game 5 the Spurs had big leads. Kobe single handedly took those games over in the clutch. So much so that the media was swooning over him like never before during that stretch of games. I remember that was one of Kobe's peak stretches when it came to media treatment with regard to the Jordan debate. As a fan I remember it vividly because it was one of the few times I saw the media give Kobe the level of respect that fans like myself gave him. Which was viewing him as Jordan's equal based on pure basketball playing ability.

Anyone who watched that series would have come away convinced that Kobe was the superior player by a wide margin.

 

[VBM]

Head to head Kobe beat Duncan in the playoffs without Shaq.

Nash > Kobe using that argument

 

[Boonapalist]

You can’t point to anything that shows Kobe was better than Duncan other than the perception of him in the media or the country. And that’s far different than actual performance and value on the court of basketball.

When it comes to Kobe you can’t help but be condescending. If someone values offense more than defense. Than yes they’re probably going to put Kobe above Duncan. And that’s how most people rank players based on offense not defense. Box score, impact, player tracking, and advanced stats all show Kobe as being offensively superior to Duncan.

It must hurt you that so many people rank Kobe over Duncan. And Duncan no matter how great he was(and I think he’s top 5) is basically an afterthought.

 

[Swagnificent]

Nash > Kobe using that argument

Nash had the far superior teams. Thet were the 2 seed while Kobe's Lakers were a 7th seed.

In 2008 the Lakers won 57 games while the Spurs won 56 games. The Spurs were also the reigning Champs.

Nash's Suns didn't beat Kobe's Lakers in 2006 and 2007 because Nash was better than Kobe. However, Kobe's Lakers beat Duncan's Spurs in 2008 because Kobe was better. As I pointed out earlier, the Lakers were down in both Game 1 and Game 5. The only reason they won is because Kobe took over in the clutch with Jordan-esque performances. So much so that even the media had to give him props.

 

[VBM]

Nash had the far superior teams. Thet were the 2 seed while Kobe's Lakers were a 7th seed.

In 2008 the Lakers won 57 games while the Spurs won 56 games. The Spurs were also the reigning Champs.

Nash's Suns didn't beat Kobe's Lakers in 2006 and 2007 because Nash was better than Kobe. However, Kobe's Lakers beat Duncan's Spurs in 2008 because Kobe was better. As I pointed out earlier, the Lakers were down in both Game 1 and Game 5. The only reason they won is because Kobe took over in the clutch with Jordan-esque performances. So much so that even the media had to give him props.

Kobe didn't drop 22 and 17 a game while his second best player was playing on 1 foot. If we don't factor in injury circumstances to Manu, then it's technically 1-1 since Kobe's Lakers lost to the Spurs in 2013 Although props to Kobe for missing the playoffs 5 times post Shaq (and 4 times after 2008) to keep that playoff head to head edge over Duncan. Some true #mambamentality shyt right there.

 

[Diondon]

Tim was better all around and won just as much, shyt even more
Just keeping it a buck
Popovich sacrificed a lot of Tim's individual stats if that's the metric you look at

 

[Swagnificent]

Kobe didn't drop 22 and 17 a game while his second best player was playing on 1 foot. If we don't factor in injury circumstances to Manu, then it's technically 1-1 since Kobe's Lakers lost to the Spurs in 2013 Although props to Kobe for missing the playoffs 5 times post Shaq (and 4 times after 2008) to keep that playoff head to head edge over Duncan. Some true #mambamentality shyt right there.

Manu scored 30 points in Game 3 leading the Spurs to their only win in the series. Also remember Bynum was out that entire playoff run. So Kobe was technically without his 3rd best player. Can't really compare that to 2013 when the Lakers were a fledgling 7th seed and played without Kobe.

I know it makes you Kobe haters uncomfortable to ever give him props but there's literally no argument for Duncan versus Kobe in 2008. Kobe came into that series with equivalent talent at best and wiped the floor with him. I would argue Duncan's Spurs were actually the healthier team cause Manu actually played while Bynum was out.