Phil's Drunk Messin' With The Association Save Again: Knicks 2015-2016 Tryout / Off Season Thread

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I can't believe so many people believe the triangle is some magic system that wins ..it's about the players not the system

The triangle is Jordan Pippen Shaq and Kobe

False. None of those players won without it. There are no superstars in their prime on the Spurs. That's like saying Kobe and Jordan would win titles with Woodson's predictable 'Iso-you-to-death' "system". A system based on sharing the ball always wins. A system based on having defensive balance always wins. A versatile system that leaves you with several options, no matter how many of those options a defense tries to take away always wins. A system that is built to handle pressure d (which is the best a defense can do) always wins. We know that the Triangle is huge because we know basketball. You listen to brain-washers aka "analysts" and commentators too much. Turn them off and study the game.
 
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I.V.

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I'm gonna say it...Derrick Fisher CAN'T coach.

It's a little early for this.

Larkin = Poor Man's Jose Barea

It's a little early for this, too. Take a break, skip a few games... you guys are doing too much.

I can't believe so many people believe the triangle is some magic system that wins ..it's about the players not the system

The triangle is Jordan Pippen Shaq and Kobe

No. Jordan/Pippen Shaq/Kobe are not the triangle. They would have succeeded in ANY system, they're all-time ball players. You could have put them in any offense, and you would have won championships. Pau Gasol won as the big man in the Triangle also.

The Triangle is NOT the stars, it's BJ, Harper, Kerr, Paxson, Buechler, Fisher, Fox, Horry, Shaw, George.... THOSE are the guys that thrive in the Triangle. THAT is what the triangle is about, creating space and movement and easy shots for players AROUND the stars, which then takes some of the burden off them.

It's not a magic pill, you are right. It is a system that needs players that can pass and move and recognize openings, and knock down open shots, and make decisions and adjustments. Those players are not on the roster yet... but it's not all about the stars. You don't need MJ or Kobe to run it. MJ and Kobe can run anything. Or nothing.
 

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  • Derek Fisher: Knicks' offense too 'passive'
  • By Ian Begley | November 11, 2014 2:16:07 AM PST
NEW YORK -- In trying to run the offense “the right way," some of the New York Knicks have gotten too “passive," according to head coach Derek Fisher.

“We have a lot of guys that aren’t being aggressive and playing with their instincts, and they’re being passive a little bit right now, trying to fit in to the team chemistry,” Fisher said.

The coach made the observation before the Knicks’ 91-85 loss to the Atlanta Hawks on Monday night. The Knicks probably didn’t do anything to change Fisher’s opinion. New York settled for 30 mid-range jump shots and got to the free-throw line just 12 times.

Coach Derek Fisher has remained patient with the Knicks as they adjust to a new offensive system.
“I don’t think it’s just passive. I just think, at times, it’s just everybody trying to do the right thing," Carmelo Anthony said. "Sometimes it’s almost to a fault."

Anthony has struggled with his shot of late. He went 11-for-25 against Atlanta and scored 25 points. In the four games prior to that, Anthony had missed 58 of 84 shots.

After the game, the Knicks' star forward talked about fighting the urge to operate outside the triangle when things aren’t going well on offense.

“It’s easy to move away from them when you lose a basketball game and say, I’m going to try to do something on my own, try to do it another way,” Anthony said. “Through this time, we have to continue sticking with what we’ve been taught [and] what we’ve been working on from day one. We can’t alter away from that.”

On one hand, the Knicks should be commended for their commitment to the system. But that commitment can come at a cost.

The Knicks are shooting free throws at the lowest rate in the NBA and have the highest number of mid-range jump shots per 48 minutes. Entering play Monday, they ranked 20th in points scored per 100 possessions.

“These guys are trying to do what we’re asking them to do, and that’s to play the game the right way, think about their teammates first, be unselfish,” Fisher said. “So they’re carrying that out on the floor, sometimes to a fault.”

Calderon return unclear: Wednesday marks two weeks since Jose Calderon missed the Knicks’ opener due to a calf injury. At the time, the Knicks said Calderon would be out two to three weeks.

Calderon said Monday he hadn’t started running yet but hoped to ramp things up Wednesday. He was not sure if he would practice Tuesday.

“Hopefully, I can just go step-by-step, but I don’t want to go too fast,” Calderon said. “I think we’re doing what we’re supposed to, and we’re getting ready soon.”

Shumpert impresses Phil: Iman Shumpertcontinued his hot shooting on Monday and hit eight of 12 shots for 18 points. He also handed out five assists. Before the game, Phil Jackson said he’d been impressed by what he’d seen from Shumpert.

“I’m really pleased with the way Iman is operating out there at the top of the floor,” Jackson said. “He’s doing a really good job. He had an off-game against Brooklyn on Friday, but other than that, I’ve been very pleased with him.”

Question: Have you noticed the Knicks are “passive” on offense? What do you think they need to change to improve their scoring?

You can follow Ian Begley on Twitter.
 

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I'm gonna say it...Derrick Fisher CAN'T coach. Maybe sometime down the line, but not now. His credentials are that he played under Phil (wasn't even the starter for 1/2 that time) and that Kobe respected him.

As a player, he couldn't read the floor well, was a horrible PG, subpar on defense, and still did what Kobe told him to. How about grabbing a former PG that players actually listened to?

He has horrible player rotations, assigns the worst defensive assignments, and has the worst possible player-combinations you can think of. Not to mention, the "triangle" is really antiquated with today's players. Run a modified version. He's not using any of the players towards their strengths, including having Shumpert (one on the team with the worst handle of all people) running PG.

We would have been better suited with Avery or even Mark Jax. Fisher may fair better as a GM

False. Derek was a great defender. He would help trap and still somehow recover to his man and steal the ball. He played pressure d only. I'm going with Brendan Brown on this one (3:40 mark):



Shump's handle is average. Tim's handle is putrid. Tim's handle is how Shump's used to be. What line up would have done better than holding Atlana to 38% shooting and 91pts?
 

Victim of Racism

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Lebron signed to Cleveland because he wanted to go back home...is there a Lebron on this team?

Is there a franchise changing player that wants to come home to NY and play?

And once again...we're ignoring a decade of history where the only star players that wanted to come to play for us had tragic flaws in their game that made us worse instead of better.

False. Lj went to Cleveland because the rings dried up in Miami; he said so himself. As far as the bolded, Lj has missed the Playoffs more than 'Melo and neither time was just by 1 game, like it was in 'Melo's case. When has Lj ever lead a weak team to a title? When has he even come close? Think before you answer because playing two .500 teams in the 1st and 2nd rounds and having the rookie Daniel Gibson score 19 of your team's last 31 points to eliminate your ECF opponent, then getting swept in the next round, while playing like trash is a faaaaar cry from "close". Dude only showed up in 1 out of 5 Finals, and that's only because they didn't let KD guard him and relegated every person (including KD) who guarded him to the bench in bogus foul trouble because Lj embarrassed the league so badly with his 2ft tall Finals performance in 2011. The NBA had to give their cash cow a title.

'Melo would have never gotten punked by Kawhi (let alone 2 seasons in a row in the Finals, let alone on a stacked team) because 'Melo can shoot. 2 seasons ago, Pop wouldn't even put Kawhi on 'Melo in the Spurs' first game against NY. Pop resolved to double him and the Spurs still lost the game. Last season, Kawhi couldn't stop 'Melo. 'Melo certainly wouldn't get punked by players half his size like Lj did against Terry, Kidd, and Barea, etc in the 2011 Finals. Put 'Melo on the Heat and they win at least 3 of 4 titles.

Lj is putrid defender. 'Melo is very good. I'm sure you know I can prove it and will if you request it. 'Melo has more offensive rebounds (the one's that don't just come to you and are 2nd chance points) than Lj and Durant combined, so do you worship Lj because he averages 6.9 assists for his career, even though he dominates the ball as much as Rondo and CP3, but can't match their production in neither passing, nor taking care of the ball? Lj, who's played PG his whole career is a pathetic 0.6 points better than 'Melo on their assist-to bad pass-ratio. Click here for Lj's 'Time Of Possession in Minutes' stats from last season. 'Melo was no where near the top of the list in that category last season and that was the season when it was 'Iso-Melo' unlike the season before.

Name a "franchise changing player" in the league. KD, who also missed the Playoffs more than 'Melo, even with RW, and gets punked by players half his size (CP3 and Tony Allen), and can't even lead a stacked team to a title? Durant is a fraud who needs screens, RW to spread the floor, and free throws?
 
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If defense is the issue, how exactly will the team be better off with two bad defenders returning:heh:

Because Bargs is an excellent defender who ranks in the 90th percentile in post defense on synergy (see below). He will take STAT's minutes because of STAT's inability keep his man in front of him.


Synergy Sports ranked Bargnani in the 88th percentile in post defense on a per-possession basis, and the 56th percentile in isolation defense last season (with a gaudy 95th percentile overall) → http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/17/the-inbounds-the-pierre-bargnani-defensive-mirror/

He's also an elite rim-protector who held players to 48.3% shooting at the rim last season. That's better than Tyson Chandler (51.5%) and Kenyon Martin (49.1%). Sam is at 52%. Bargs will block you multiple times per possession if you try to just walk up to the rim when he's playing Center (see the 0:59 mark of the video below for an example):

 
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Victim of Racism

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Bargs might be better 1v1 but he might be the only big in the NBA that is worse than Amare in help defense.

You just admitted that STAT is atrocious in both 1v1 and help, and Bargs is good at 1 of them (the best one i.e. 1v1), so what more is there for you to say to prove Barg's value? FYI, Shump is also a terrible help defender; he's still an elite defender, isn't he?! Moreover, with this logic, a team would get burned more with a team full of great help defenders and atrocious 1v1 defenders. How much help is needed when players are able to guard their own man? Cop pleas for poor defenders, breh/brehettes :scust:.
 
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Victim of Racism

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Shump is out there playing hard and JR just comes in and shoots the knicks out the game. Tht alongside Amare's opposite of defense in the paint looks like it cost the knicks this game. I wonder why Acy didn't see minutes? he would of put shreoder on his ass at least once on those drives in the paint.

I hope Fisher says fukk a fine and calls these punk refs out. Melo was getting attacked the whole game

Fisher told them to do that (see the 3:00 mark of the video link below):

http://player.theplatform.com/p/TZlbt/raiMSG1/select/UAaZlsbFveyQMBEcOfjjcqEWuD5QkP_g?width=1016&height=493&videoWidth=1016&videoHeight=493&feedParams=byId=2582667733

Thats the shyt that gets me they do well playing the triangle, The triangle is usually what has them playing competitively and then the sub in JR and Amare who have no idea what the fukk they are doing in that system and boom no more triangle. THen its iso Melo and JR and pick and roll Amare all over again. Which defensively isn't that hard for other teams to stop.

Phil already did:
I did step on the court today and tell players that if guys lean all over you and put their nose in your business, you have a right to protect yourself. I was disappointed in the refereeing the other night with letting Atlanta slap the ball out of our players’ hands and get turnovers that were really out of the positional favor. So we have to be much firmer with the ball and so that irritated me as a sideline observer.
 

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