origin of conflict among Black diaspora

[Trajan]

Newsflash: Wealthy Africans do not settle permanently in America/Europe because they are already benefiting from the system in their country of origin why go through the hassle of becoming legal and adjusting in a new country and subject yourself to the daily grind of a 9 to 5?

Yep.

I know Zimbabweans who live like kings back in Zimbabwe. They party in Dubai, Shanghai and Johannesburg. Apart from visiting LA from time to time they're not really pressed to immigrate to America or the UK. They hold dual citizenship but are hardly in the country lol.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

I gotta read that book. That's incredibly interesting. I never gave much thought on how much of the already existing "free people of color" had their own distinct culture from Black people from the South. I'm sure there were spirited debates between the two groups about which one of their cultures was "true" AA culture and which one was imitated White culture the most.

For a while, many "middle-class" Black people were tracing their origins back to Africa, but it was actually in imitation of Whites doing the exact same thing in-regards to their ancestry from famous European monarchs, dignitaries, explorers, etc. So, you'll see in various narratives of the period, Black people claiming descent from African kings/entrepreneurs, etc., but these stories are mostly legends or outright lies. There are some that are based in facts, but they are few and far between. Similarly, the Black "middle-class" copied the morals and social etiquette of the Whites they had no choice but to work/live beside upon emigrating to cities/urban areas. The precursor to this behavior was seen in the antebellum system in the differentiation between 'field Negroes' and 'house Negroes' where the former was regarded with disdain by Whites as being 'brutish, un-intellectual, and morally deficient' while the latter was regarded as 'disciplined and morally superior'. This differentiation was also copied by the Black 'middle-class' and still exists to this very day. 'Free people of color' had very little choice as to which culture they would follow given the racial climate of the times. In order for them to succeed, they had to take on the attitudes, mores, and social etiquette of the 'ruling class' to avoid persecution and survive in an extremely hostile social structure in which they had no input.

Many of them developed 'dual-identities', appearing to Whites in one way, to other Blacks as another. Some were more successful at this than others. The fact of the matter is, the debate about which class actually conformed to African socio-cultural attitudes and behaviors was moot since, for the most part, their pre-existing culture was wiped out through subjugation and captivity for several hundred years.

The only culture they could conform to without repercussions was that of the Whites they had been subjugated and enslaved by. Any Black/African/Carribean person who clung to their 'original culture' was debased not only by Whites, but by other Blacks in positions of authority as well.​

 

[BigMan]

For a while, many "middle-class" Black people were tracing their origins back to Africa, but it was actually in imitation of Whites doing the exact same thing in-regards to their ancestry from famous European monarchs, dignitaries, explorers, etc. So, you'll see in various narratives of the period, Black people claiming descent from African kings/entrepreneurs, etc., but these stories are mostly legends or outright lies. There are some that are based in facts, but they are few and far between. Similarly, the Black "middle-class" copied the morals and social etiquette of the Whites they had no choice but to work/live beside upon emigrating to cities/urban areas. The precursor to this behavior was seen in the antebellum system in the differentiation between 'field Negroes' and 'house Negroes' where the former was regarded with disdain by Whites as being 'brutish, un-intellectual, and morally deficient' while the latter was regarded as 'disciplined and morally superior'. This differentiation was also copied by the Black 'middle-class' and still exists to this very day. 'Free people of color' had very little choice as to which culture they would follow given the racial climate of the times. In order for them to succeed, they had to take on the attitudes, mores, and social etiquette of the 'ruling class' to avoid persecution and survive in an extremely hostile social structure in which they had no input.

Many of them developed 'dual-identities', appearing to Whites in one way, to other Blacks as another. Some were more successful at this than others. The fact of the matter is, the debate about which class actually conformed to African socio-cultural attitudes and behaviors was moot since, for the most part, their pre-existing culture was wiped out through subjugation and captivity for several hundred years.

The only culture they could conform to without repercussions was that of the Whites they had been subjugated and enslaved by. Any Black/African/Carribean person who clung to their 'original culture' was debased not only by Whites, but by other Blacks in positions of authority as well.​

This is one of the dumbest shyt I've ever read

 

[Poitier]

Yep.

I know Zimbabweans who live like kings back in Zimbabwe. They party in Dubai, Shanghai and Johannesburg. Apart from visiting LA from time to time they're not really pressed to immigrate to America or the UK. They hold dual citizenship but are hardly in the country lol.

Yall really live in la la land. There are literally sections of the UK where rich Africans have skyrocketed the real estate values

Anyone in Atlanta or Houston can easily verify the monied class of Africans do indeed LIVE in these cities and live lavishly.

But thats besides the point, most Africans who come to this country are middle class not condemned to the slums while they work their way out the struggle as some special snowflake who defeats White supremacy

 

[Frangala]

Yall really live in la la land. There are literally sections of the UK where rich Africans have skyrocketed the real estate values

Anyone in Atlanta or Houston can easily verify the monied class of Africans do indeed LIVE in these cities and live lavishly.

But thats besides the point, most Africans who come to this country are middle class not condemned to the slums while they work their way out the struggle as some special snowflake who defeats White supremacy

Yea the connected oil ministers specifically Nigerians and its extremely small clique whose main source of income and wealth is derived from their countries of origin NOT the MAJORITY of immigrants living, working and settling in Western countries that are being counted in the median household incomes statistics.

 

[Poitier]

Yea the connected oil ministers specifically Nigerians and its extremely small clique NOT the MAJORITY of immigrants living and settling in Western countries that are being counted in the median household incomes statistics.

Who said the majority? You literally denied their existence in the Western world but my second sentence literally states middle class is the majority not Africans living on section 8 or living like jetsetters

 

[Frangala]

Who said the majority? You literally denied their existence in the Western world but my second sentence literally states middle class is the majority not Africans living on section 8 or living like jetsetters

The whole "crux" of the argument is that African immigrants for the most part are well off and wealthy therefore their achievement in the US is a result of self-selection and also undeserving of opportunities that AAs have access to because it is unfair since those immigrants come from a "well-off" background anyway.

You can make a plausible argument that policies such as Affirmative Action had ONLY AAs in mind as its beneficiaries. That's fine.

My response is that the majority of African immigrants who are settling and living in the US permanently are not wealthy or rich immigrants and have to grind like everybody else even if they are educated in their countries of origin, their certificates and credentials are not transferable in the US because of different systems and also the stigma of being from a developing country where there is a direct assumption (often justifiable) that your diplomas or professional certifications mean less because of the social conditions of those countries.

You instead decided to go the extreme and say that I was implying wealthy Africans don't exist at all in the Western world. All I was trying to portray is your average African immigrant in the UK or the US cannot afford 1 million dollar+ apartment or real estate in these Western countries. You actually further my argument that wealthy Africans permanently stay in their home countries (does not mean that they can't buy properties in foreign countries). The UK example that you just cited proves specifically my point that those wealthy Africans buying those expensive properties in the UK are deriving their wealth and income from their countries of origin hence they are not even in competition for resources with native Black population of those respective countries (UK or US) because they don't earn their living there instead they just park their money in that real estate market while earning their money back in Nigeria or X African country. They are benefiting from the system in place in their country of origin why would they want to compete for resources in the US or UK against citizens of those respective countries.

My ultimate point was those who are getting counted into the median household income in US Labor Statistics or Census comprise of the overwhelming majority of African immigrants who are permanently living and earning a living in the US and cannot afford million dollar apartments on Park Avenue or some fancy neighborhood in a Western industrialized country. Those who can afford it are those who already benefiting from their system back home but just want to buy trinkets and park their money over here or pay for their children's school fees cash which is NOT the majority experience of Africans in Europe or America.

Yea middle class because they more likely than not attained it while working and living in their adopted country for a long time, they did not attain right off the plane which is the argument a lot of people seem to be making.

 

[Poitier]

The whole "crux" of the argument is that African immigrants for the most part are well off and wealthy therefore their achievement in the US is a result of self-selection and also undeserving of opportunities that AAs have access to because it is unfair since those immigrants come from a "well-off" background anyway.

You are bringing a different argument into this thread....

OP is making the argument most Black immigrants move into slums where their first exposure to AAs are those who might have learned the most toxic behaviors out of sheer poverty...

 

[Frangala]

You are bringing a different argument into this thread....

OP is making the argument most Black immigrants move into slums where their first exposure to AAs are those who might have learned the most toxic behaviors out of sheer poverty...

This thread was spinoff of the Cornell University Black Student Union request to administration debate so I am looking at it from that perspective and your response that I denied the existence of wealthy Africans in Western industrialized countries.

To to your argument that immigrants are NOT getting section 8 vouchers which is again wrong. Maine has become a hub for a lot of African immigrants coming into the US fore the past 10 years and damn near all of them are living and benefiting from state benefits. OP had a great question even if you made the argument that those who came here were middle class what US bank would give them a mortgage for a middle-class suburban home with no credit history when they touch down.

But the gist of my argument which is the correct one : (1) The vast majority of African immigrants in the US are not monied or connected some oil minister back home in order to afford million dollar real estate property that does not mean that those wealthy ones are not living here BUT they are more likely not earning their money here which means not counted in the the country's economic stats such median household income, are not competing for resources here and paying straight cash if they send their kids to school here (2) Secondly, those who are middle class in America often attain that status by working and living in America permanently for years. They do not come off the plane with that status in American terms.

 

[Poitier]

To to your argument that immigrants are NOT getting section 8 vouchers which is again wrong. Maine has become a hub for a lot of African immigrants coming into the US fore the past 10 years and damn near all of them are living and benefiting from state benefits.

You're wrong and full of shyt

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

what he said is true in most cases. idk about atlanta or houston but even in DC, not all the Africans around aren't rich. I live around Ethiopians now and they own alot of business but they no different than other blacks

This is probably true but on average they come with more wealth than AAs

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

Exactly...I'm kind of sick of all this Africans are doing better than Black Americans narrative.

Many, especially from like Nigeria, were rich back home and will do well anywhere in the world.

And you're right about that, they go back and forth to Nigeria and travel the world pretty much.

Also, I'm not a fan of rich Africans who are basically exploiting poor Africans in their homelands to live lavish lifestyles..

But they are

New Report: The Color of Wealth in Los Angeles | The Cook Center on Social Equity

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

http://www.mariko-chang.com/color-of-wealth-2015.pdf

More from Darity

Charts begin on p13

 

[BigMan]

Why is it that when we talk about black immigrants on the coli we focus on African (read Nigerian) when most black immigrants are from The Caribbean

 

[Trajan]

Yall really live in la la land. There are literally sections of the UK where rich Africans have skyrocketed the real estate values

Anyone in Atlanta or Houston can easily verify the monied class of Africans do indeed LIVE in these cities and live lavishly.

But thats besides the point, most Africans who come to this country are middle class not condemned to the slums while they work their way out the struggle as some special snowflake who defeats White supremacy

Purchasing doesn't mean immigrating/settling. They cop houses and bounce. I actually worked on the the last UK census in 2011 where we investigated the low response rate from certain areas...come to find out entire newly built blocks were empty. Africans, Iranians etc copped houses, took the keys and bounced. These cats are already plugged in back home...fukk are they gonna do in the UK .. They just want security for their money.....Keeping money in a Nigerian bank buying property in London


In fact my boy rents a house owned by a Nigerian lady...she's never in London. I'm not even sure she's been here before.