Official TLR Stupidity Thread

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Less victims moving forward is accomplished by removing the perpetrators of those crimes from society for long sentences/ or forever. Before they kill other people .
Which translates to the harsh sentences that you reject earlier in that post.

If this worked then the USA, with the longest sentences and by far the largest prison population in the developed world, wouldn't still have by far the worst violent crime. If this worked then Black communities would be the safest places in the country, seeing as Black "criminals" are incarcerated at a FAR higher rate and for MUCH longer than men in any other community. Yet the exact opposite is true.

Criminologists have found that increasing the # of people who are incarcerated only reduces crime up to a breaking point of about 2%. Past that point, the more people who are incarcerated, the WORST crime gets, because constantly removing so many men from the community fukks with the very fabric of the society. It normalizes prison as "the place young men go and old men come back from", it normalizes prison as "the place where fathers are", it degrades the community's trust in the legal system and acceptance with how much any particular criminal deserves to be there because it feels like everyone is getting sent there. Not to mention that the cost of keeping people in prison is fukking enormous and diverts funds that could be used to improve societal problems rather than just try to lock the problems away without even addressing the root cause.

Having the rule of law, the general societal implication that crime is a true concern and criminals will get caught, is important. Having prison sentences long enough to act as an actual deterrent is important. Having a prison system that actually improves a person and makes them less of a criminal rather than more than one is important. Being able to determine when someone is ready to be released back into society is important. And all of those aims are hampered by creating arbitrarily long prison sentences that overburden the system long past the point where that particular person is still a threat.

How many murders do actual long prison sentences save? In Australia they did a recidivism study of 1088 released murderers over 22 years. Over half of them were eventually arrested for some other offense, which is not entirely surprising considering their backgrounds and the high chance they were in a difficult social and economic space when released. However, only 3 of the 1088 were ever re-arrested for murder. And this study started back in the 1980s when murder rates were higher and prison rehabilitation programs were shyt.





I posed a question to somebody, perhaps in this thread. He said that most people were capable of being rehabilitated. I asked whether that applied to the animal who killed the Elders in Buffalo. Never got a response.

So you poisoned the well with an emotion-based appeal and are surprised it didn't get a response? :skip:

Payton Gendron may well be past the point of rehabilitation. I don't think anyone can answer that question for a long time. Many (other) people would have put Assata Shakur or Malcolm X or Michael Jackson in the same category, in each case for different reasons. The lines are very different for different people. Since we already have a system that incarcerates virtually every offense as long or longer than virtually everywhere else, why the need to push things even further in a directly that hasn't apparently helped?
 

CrimsonTider

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If this worked then the USA, with the longest sentences and by far the largest prison population in the developed world, wouldn't still have by far the worst violent crime. If this worked then Black communities would be the safest places in the country, seeing as Black "criminals" are incarcerated at a FAR higher rate and for MUCH longer than men in any other community. Yet the exact opposite is true.

Criminologists have found that increasing the # of people who are incarcerated only reduces crime up to a breaking point of about 2%. Past that point, the more people who are incarcerated, the WORST crime gets, because constantly removing so many men from the community fukks with the very fabric of the society. It normalizes prison as "the place young men go and old men come back from", it normalizes prison as "the place where fathers are", it degrades the community's trust in the legal system and acceptance with how much any particular criminal deserves to be there because it feels like everyone is getting sent there. Not to mention that the cost of keeping people in prison is fukking enormous and diverts funds that could be used to improve societal problems rather than just try to lock the problems away without even addressing the root cause.

Having the rule of law, the general societal implication that crime is a true concern and criminals will get caught, is important. Having prison sentences long enough to act as an actual deterrent is important. Having a prison system that actually improves a person and makes them less of a criminal rather than more than one is important. Being able to determine when someone is ready to be released back into society is important. And all of those aims are hampered by creating arbitrarily long prison sentences that overburden the system long past the point where that particular person is still a threat.

How many murders do actual long prison sentences save? In Australia they did a recidivism study of 1088 released murderers over 22 years. Over half of them were eventually arrested for some other offense, which is not entirely surprising considering their backgrounds and the high chance they were in a difficult social and economic space when released. However, only 3 of the 1088 were ever re-arrested for murder. And this study started back in the 1980s when murder rates were higher and prison rehabilitation programs were shyt.







So you poisoned the well with an emotion-based appeal and are surprised it didn't get a response? :skip:

Payton Gendron may well be past the point of rehabilitation. I don't think anyone can answer that question for a long time. Many (other) people would have put Assata Shakur or Malcolm X or Michael Jackson in the same category, in each case for different reasons. The lines are very different for different people. Since we already have a system that incarcerates virtually every offense as long or longer than virtually everywhere else, why the need to push things even further in a directly that hasn't apparently helped?
You’re so lost
 

CrimsonTider

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Why do you come to this section of the forum if you're just going to act in bad faith?

Clown behavior.
:scust:
Criminals needed to be locked away is acting in bad faith :dead:

That entire post I quoted is acting in bad faith because no one that lives with the threat of crime would post that
 

get these nets

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Above the fray.
If this worked then the USA, with the longest sentences and by far the largest prison population in the developed world, wouldn't still have by far the worst violent crime. If this worked then Black communities would be the safest places in the country, seeing as Black "criminals" are incarcerated at a FAR higher rate and for MUCH longer than men in any other community. Yet the exact opposite is true.

Criminologists have found that increasing the # of people who are incarcerated only reduces crime up to a breaking point of about 2%. Past that point, the more people who are incarcerated, the WORST crime gets, because constantly removing so many men from the community fukks with the very fabric of the society. It normalizes prison as "the place young men go and old men come back from", it normalizes prison as "the place where fathers are", it degrades the community's trust in the legal system and acceptance with how much any particular criminal deserves to be there because it feels like everyone is getting sent there. Not to mention that the cost of keeping people in prison is fukking enormous and diverts funds that could be used to improve societal problems rather than just try to lock the problems away without even addressing the root cause.

Having the rule of law, the general societal implication that crime is a true concern and criminals will get caught, is important. Having prison sentences long enough to act as an actual deterrent is important. Having a prison system that actually improves a person and makes them less of a criminal rather than more than one is important. Being able to determine when someone is ready to be released back into society is important. And all of those aims are hampered by creating arbitrarily long prison sentences that overburden the system long past the point where that particular person is still a threat.

How many murders do actual long prison sentences save? In Australia they did a recidivism study of 1088 released murderers over 22 years. Over half of them were eventually arrested for some other offense, which is not entirely surprising considering their backgrounds and the high chance they were in a difficult social and economic space when released. However, only 3 of the 1088 were ever re-arrested for murder. And this study started back in the 1980s when murder rates were higher and prison rehabilitation programs were shyt.







So you poisoned the well with an emotion-based appeal and are surprised it didn't get a response? :skip:

Payton Gendron may well be past the point of rehabilitation. I don't think anyone can answer that question for a long time. Many (other) people would have put Assata Shakur or Malcolm X or Michael Jackson in the same category, in each case for different reasons. The lines are very different for different people. Since we already have a system that incarcerates virtually every offense as long or longer than virtually everywhere else, why the need to push things even further in a directly that hasn't apparently helped?
Fair points and good post.
I agree with what your overall point has been in these discussions we've had over the years. That what we are doing isn't working.

Where I think that we disagree is
on the feasibility of the reform measures. Ideally, measures are made with regular people in mind. That a mistake or lapse in judgement should not permanently derail the trajectory of a person's life.
The other side of the coin are the lowlife/hardcore criminal element. They ruin everything they touch or get near, including neighborhoods and the peace/comfort that regular people deserve . fukk them. I will never feign concern about them, except to the extent that it affects regular people.
Those lowlifes being themselves have also hurt efforts to enact and sustain criminal justice reform. Some of us said that this would happen, and on cue those MFers showed their asses.

When crime activity dictates that the incarceration rate must go pass the 2% threshold, what would YOU suggest happen?
Sentences that don't serve as deterrents, must serve as punishment for law breakers. What practical alternative exists?

2) I also have a question.

You've pointed out the unique level of American law enforcement/incarceration figures before.
If this is true, and I certainly believe so, why/how do you cite studies of other countries as if they are applicable to a discussion about American criminal system?
You've mentioned a study from a Scandinavian country in threads before, and now you are pointing to Australia.
These discussions seem to be in line with what your education and profession are, so you which countries are most comparable to the incarceration/ crime per capita to the numbers in America? I would imagine them to be in the Western hemisphere. Along the drug pipeline. With high crime and murder rates.


3) I don't think that mentioning the Black seniors murdered in Buffalo poisoned any well. There are human beings and distraught families on the other end of every homicide committed. Some of the discussions about crimes seem to forget them altogether, and treat the killer as though he is the one who we should primarily be concerned about. I understand why the professionals in academia maintain this level of detachment from the (additional) victims of homicides. It is in their best interest to do.
Puzzles me it is done outside of those settings. We are in personal proximity/have ties to the people who are generally the homicide victims.
 

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Fair points and good post.
I agree with what your overall point has been in these discussions we've had over the years. That what we are doing isn't working.

Where I think that we disagree is
on the feasibility of the reform measures. Ideally, measures are made with regular people in mind. That a mistake or lapse in judgement should not permanently derail the trajectory of a person's life.
The other side of the coin are the lowlife/hardcore criminal element. They ruin everything they touch or get near, including neighborhoods and the peace/comfort that regular people deserve . fukk them. I will never feign concern about them, except to the extent that it affects regular people.
Those lowlifes being themselves have also hurt efforts to enact and sustain criminal justice reform. Some of us said that this would happen, and on cue those MFers showed their asses.

When crime activity dictates that the incarceration rate must go pass the 2% threshold, what would YOU suggest happen?
Sentences that don't serve as deterrents, must serve as punishment for law breakers. What practical alternative exists?


If incarcerating over 2% of the population of those communities just creates even more crime in the long term, then what option do YOU see? Are you basically saying, "fukk poor black communities"? What's the use of promoting whatever other policies you think are going to make a difference if the criminal justice policies will just sabatogue that?

Something I've noticed from the moderate elites who post here is that your answers often come down to some version of the
872
meme. We had this same fukking argument about schooling, where the "solution" was to give up on poor black kids in favor of catering to a few outliers who will be "saved" from the system. Personally I find that repugnant.



In terms of my solution, first off I'd say a massive reorientation of the justice system to focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment. I've worked in a major jail and 90% of the activity there was pretty much designed to make every inmate a worse person, not a better one. So long as that is true, then mass incarceration will continue to only make our society worse, not better. In addition I'd say we need substantially greater resources to post-incarceration rehabilitation programs like Homeboy Industries, which has in the past struggled with both funding problems and attacks from the establishment because rehabilitating people with a record isn't seen as a priority by law enforcement, elites, or moderates. The increased support necessary is both funding and social/community. Then, of course, I think we need substantially greater investments in education, health, and community economic development, investments which our massive spending on police and incarceration make more difficult. We should also be working towards a reversal of residential segregation and creating more mixed-income communities so that the concept of having a single community with an incarceration rate over 5x greater than the USA average and 30x greater than the norm in the developed world isn't even a question.



2) I also have a question.

You've pointed out the unique level of American law enforcement/incarceration figures before.
If this is true, and I certainly believe so, why/how do you cite studies of other countries as if they are applicable to a discussion about American criminal system?
You've mentioned a study from a Scandinavian country in threads before, and now you are pointing to Australia.
These discussions seem to be in line with what your education and profession are, so you which countries are most comparable to the incarceration/ crime per capita to the numbers in America? I would imagine them to be in the Western hemisphere. Along the drug pipeline. With high crime and murder rates.

Australia IS the Western nation with the highest incarceration rate outside of the USA. It just happens to still be 4x lower. :skip:



Who else do you want to compare the USA to? 3rd-world countries? Places where the rule of law has never existed? Nations run by right-wing dictators or fascist wannabes?

As of this 2021 data cited in the link, the incarceration rate in the USA was 629 per 100,000, the highest in the entire world. In Australia it was 167 per 100,000. UK has the highest incarceration level for any Western European nation, with England and Wales leading the pack at 131 per 100,000. Canada is 104 per 100,000.

Really, who is there to compare to? Literally no one incarcerates like the USA does.



3) I don't think that mentioning the Black seniors murdered in Buffalo poisoned any well. There are human beings and distraught families on the other end of every homicide committed. Some of the discussions about crimes seem to forget them altogether, and treat the killer as though he is the one who we should primarily be concerned about. I understand why the professionals in academia maintain this level of detachment from the (additional) victims of homicides. It is in their best interest to do.
Puzzles me it is done outside of those settings. We are in personal proximity/have ties to the people who are generally the homicide victims.

I'm not sure who "we" is for you in this scenario. Do you actually live in a high crime neighborhood? I've had a homicide victim dying in my arms. He was killed by one of the most demented anti-black killers in recent history (sadly, someone I'm sure you've never heard of - once again media narratives always rule). Like the Buffalo shooter, he is a danger to society and shouldn't be unleashed on the outside world. But how we handle the 0.1% of inmates that commit the most horrific crimes isn't the question, it's just boilerplate emotional appeal used over and over by the right in order to deflect from addressing the real issues.
 
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So this ORDER_66 guy,

Does he ever have a point? You're pretty much gaurunteed to see him pop up in a political thread and shyt post for pages on end, and when pressed to add any sort of nuance to his argument, he'll just repeat the same both sides rhetoric for several more pages.

Btw, he was the person I was referring to in this post

Yeah I’d doubt that guy even votes. He’ll act all Outraged tho if republicans do some awful shyt then find a way to claim it’s a both sides thing
 

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i shouldn't but ...

TLR breh talking about those evil planet damaging dinosaurs ... :hhh:

Screenshot-2022-07-19-at-00-26-38.png


Goddamn, I tried to do a search to find it and also ran into:








Some of them are troll threads but the comments are definitely real.
 

Professor Emeritus

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TLR posters believe AOC faked being arrested and handcuffed. Juelzed over official capital police records showing she was arrested. Mod who claimed she still faked being handcuffed got 82 daps. Commenter posting the full video showing her raising her fist to the crowd and not pretending to be handcuffed at all got 16 daps.


 
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