Tommy Knocks
retired
how do you figure? what makes you say that? skeletal structure? phenotype?
Now this is literally the blackest dude I've seen in my life?
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Tommy Knocks
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and what haplogroup would that be? and at what percentage?
According to the most recent and thorough study about Berber mtDNA from Coudray et al. 2008 that analysed 614 individuals from 10 different regions (Morocco (Asni, Bouhria, Figuig, Souss), Algeria (Mozabites), Tunisia (Chenini-Douiret, Sened, Matmata, Jerba) and Egypt (Siwa))[20] the results may be summarized as follows :
- Total Eurasian lineages (H, HV, R0, J, T, U (without U6), K, N1, N2, X) : 50-80 percent
- Total sub-Saharan lineages (L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5) : 20-40 percent
- Total North African lineages (U6, M1) : 10-30 percent
mtDNA is from a person's mother of course.
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Tommy Knocks
retired
I can see J, because the arabs gave up their daughters to them, but the last part. 10-30 percent of north african. So let me get this straight, they are only 20% of themselves? no fukking way. I also noticed, that the individuals were taken from Algeria and Tunisia and Egypt, not Libya and the cities in Morocco closest to Libya, which is the berbers original home. They're tweaking the data if you look closely. How many egyptians did they take compared to Moroccans? why did they choose selected cities in algeria? (algerians most def have cac blood) something gives......
if it were my guess, they strategically went to small tribes they knew were conquered to prove a point. like going to New Orleans and taking creole blood and saying african americans have 45% euro blood. I don't buy it.
They were among the first to leave Africa. We have nothing in common genetically.
Phenotypically I don't think they look like us either other than the dark skin and wider noses (shape is clearly different though).
Tommy Knocks
retired
true, they changed over time during the walk and isolation. but couldnt the same be said about the Ainu in Japan, and how cacs try to claim them?
Like I said, it's mtDNA specifically, and they're only 10-30% North African on that side because of generational mixing with Near Eastern and European people. It just is what it is.
Cacs are wrong for that but I think they backed away from that in recent years.
Tommy Knocks
retired
Trust me, all they did was target the Turareg (they are mixed with cacs which is why may have color eyes), and another tribe which slips my memory. Those tribes are minority, and I wouldnt really call them berbers per sa. I mean they are dont get me wrong, but they are nomadic. easily conquered and move from place to place. Tribes like Kaylbe (ah thats the name) were conqoured too.
I would cpnsider prototype berber to be Maghreb or something.
The Y-chromosome genetic structure of the Maghreb population seems to be mainly modulated by geography, The Y-DNA Haplogroups E1b1b and Jmake up the vast majority of the genetic markers of the populations of the Maghreb. Haplogroup E1b1b is the most widespread among Maghrebi groups especially the downstream lineage of E1b1b1b1a which is typical of the indigenous Berbers of North-West Africa. Haplogroup J is more indicative of Middle East origins, and has its highest distribution among populations in Arabia and the Levant. Due to the distribution of E-M81(E1b1b1b1a), which has reached its highest documented levels in the world at 95-100% in some populations of the Maghreb, it has often been termed the "Berber marker" in the scientific literature. The second most common marker, Haplogroup J especially J1[22][23] which is typically Middle Eastern and originates in the Arabian peninsula can reach frequencies of up to 35% in the region. [24][25] Its highest density is founded in the Arabian Peninsula.[25]Haplogroup R1,[26] which is a Eurasian marker has also been observed in the Maghreb, though with lower frequency. The Y-DNA Haplogroups shown above are observed in both Arabs and Berber-speakers
Again though, that's the Y chromosome. The foreign mixing is from the mtDNA. If you checked the Y-DNA of African Americans they would appear way whiter than they are.
Tommy Knocks
retired
and would you consider us cacs? no you wouldnt. so Im not sure why you keep calling them that.
They're considerably more mixed than Black Americans. Perhaps calling them cacs was too harsh but believe me, "black" is the furthest thing they want to be called either. They generally consider themselves white and don't associate with "abid" like us.
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http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.ca/2012/01/north-african-autosomal-genetics-again.html
This explains everything including the Y-DNA that you guys keep bringing up. They're Eurasians with some distant sub-Saharan African heritage.
This explains everything including the Y-DNA that you guys keep bringing up. They're Eurasians with some distant sub-Saharan African heritage.
Back to Africa but when?
But overall the results are very similar: the bulk of North African genetic affinity is with West Eurasia and not so much Africa as such. That is the most obvious result and indicates that the Out-of-Africa migration had an important backflow which affected several parts of Africa but very specially the North.
Nothing unexpected, at least for me. But it really hits a blow to those who, quite lightly, associate Y-DNA and overall ancestry: if there is Y-DNA and mtDNA contradiction, as is the case in North Africa, where most of the patrilineages are African but most of the matrilineages are of Eurasian origin, in most cases the mtDNA is right and the Y-DNA is nothing but a varnish.
The main exceptions seem to be areas of sustained male inflow across generations, notably some parts of Latin America. But this kind of sustained industrialized migration pattern is unlikely to have ever existed in prehistory or even pre-Modern history anywhere.
Anyhow, interestingly, the authors make an interesting exercise to find out estimate times of Eurasian arrival. The result is forewarned with reasonable precautions:
Since this model neglects migration, we expect our results to form a lower bound on the population divergence time, as similar levels of population divergence would require a longer separation in the presence of migration.
So at least this old:
Fig. 3 (edited to correct a color typo) - click to expand
Although these divergence time estimates may not be precise, as they do not adequately model ancient migration, they do suggest that the population divergence between the ancestral Maghrebi population and neighboring Mediterranean populations occurred at least 12,000 ya and indeed more likely predated even the Last Glacial Maximum.
It is interesting anyhow that the Fst distance to Europe are lower than to Arabia and that the window for a possible migration from Europe can well fit with the Oranian genesis c. 22,000 years ago, which I am pretty sure that is related with Iberian Gravetto-Solutrean: Oranian was back in the day called Iberomaurusian for a reason and, regardless of revisionisms, the Oranian dates for the West are quite older than those of the East - never mind that at least 25% of North African mtDNA (and maybe 10% of Y-DNA) is of European (and most likely Iberian) derivation and that European affinity remains apparent, distinct and important (specially in Algeria and North Morocco) even after North African specific components have become obvious and dominant.
So the old theory of migration from Iberia c. 22,000 years ago (maybe with some backmigration northwards as well) is not any colonial construct but something most probable, as indicate both archaeological and genetic data very consistently.
Less clear is whether there was a previous West Eurasian flow c. 40,000 years ago with the Dabban industries (so far only known in Libya, although unmistakably "Aurignacoid" in character). Genetically the main support for this first Eurasian backflow is mtDNA U6 (derived from Eurasian U), whose origin is probably in Morocco, where most of the basal diversity accumulates (and then around it, in Canary Islands and Iberia).
It is not impossible that the lineage might have arrived, still as undefined U*, via Europe, however the structure of the autosomal DNA, as illustrated in this study or in my exercise from December, evidences that the North African specific components (excepted the "Aterian" one) are most akin to West Eurasia (by much). So there was probably a first migration from West Asia c. 40 Ka. ago and then an Iberian layer overlapped.
This paper also suggests more recent migrations from Tropical Africa, although I am unsure if I can take their timeline conclusions at face value, specially regarding the East African component, that I imagine quite older (they suggest, table 1, just 25 generations ago, what I find most hard to believe for such a notable impact).
I would personally conclude that the North African genetic composition appears to be made up of:
- A deep, quite diluted, 'Aterian' layer
- A dominant North African specific layer of mostly West Eurasian roots
- An Iberian or European layer (Oranian)
- Maybe an East African (Capsian) layer (needs clarification but agrees with Y-DNA)
- Maybe a lesser Arab layer and also maybe some recent Tropical African input
Tommy Knocks
retired
Read the comment section of that blog. The guy is very much pro-caucusoid. He's debunked on his own website. The reason we dont really mtdna, is because mutation tend to stop in that sequence. whereas Y it does not. Also in the old times, the males went to villages, and raped the women. So we follow that pattern to follow the migration.
the back flow of africa has been debunked, this is because arabs never made it to the caucus mountains. they are what were africans that just remained in their area while the other continued on to the mountains. They are a middle area, so they have admixtures of other races from black to white to asian, and they're the ones that share them with other groups, but they are their own people. This is why we follow the Y chrome because it would show the pattern where the men remained, and continued to breed.
You should read his comment section because he gets bashed hard.
Haven't gone back to the page, but I'll take your word for it. It's a shame these white supremacist idiots infest genealogy discourse.
I'll check back later.