No, Manufacturing jobs won't revive the economy

TLR Is Mental Poison

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The Opposite Of Elliott Wilson's Mohawk
Because outrageous CEO pay is one of the most clear and obvious forms of the growing wealth inequality issues in America?
Whats a better way to cure a disease... addressing its causes or complaining about how nasty and horrible its symptoms are?

CEO pay has little to no bearing on the average American's financial standing. Whether you agree on their pay being fair or not is a separate issue than it being a detriment to the American worker. And I am not even defending it... I am just saying it's a stupid thing to focus on in the context of the American economy. Would CEO pay matter if the avg American was building wealth and had financial security?

Bottom line, the increases in executive pay and decreases worker pay are well worth talking about in any discussion about America's economics.
More than

- the decline of education opportunities?
- the rising costs of basic necessities (housing, healthcare, utilities)?
- the effects of increasing global competition?
- the failure of the US labor pool (in the worker, employer and govt sectors) to adapt to changing demands?

:mjpls:
 

CrimsonTider

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If you redistributed CEO pay to the employees at many of these companies the employees would not be seeing huge pay bumps. A full time McDonalds cashier (which doesn't even exist but let's stay on topic) would get about $8,000 more a year... and still be eligible for things like food stamps and Medicare depending on how many people are in their household

Plus the one time pay bump wouldn't address the (red herring) issue of lower socioeconomic mobility everyone seems to be complaining about. Nor would, again, it address the myriad of skyrocketing basic needs costs people are facing. What good is 1 $8,000 raise when healthcare costs are growing at 10% annually indefinitely? nikkas need to stop looking at the next man's plate, CEO pay is far from any kind of priority in issues facing Americans... it's just a proxy for jealousy

So ignorant

The rise in CEO pay is what fuels income inequality
 

TLR Is Mental Poison

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O and when did I say CEO pay wasn't the driving force behind income inequality? The growing disparity between CEO and worker pay is the definition of income inequality :heh:

My question to you is, why is what some CEO is making more important to you than Americans having affordable access to basic things like healthcare and higher education?
 

OsO

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:dahell: You are putting forward merchantilist/protectionist arguments littered with vague inputs about "balance" and then stated "i can find just as many economic professionals who agree with my perspective" and then I proceeded to link to a survey that shows that your views are shared with a tiny minority among economists.

that survey you posted doesnt speak exactly to what im talking about.

no credible economist would state the US doesnt need more strategic manufacturing reforms in certain areas, and more effective government regulation in certain areas.

it's more complicated than categorizing as mercantilist/protectionism, because those are very general terms.

There is no inherent value in the production process of anything, the value comes from what/how much people on the market are willing to buy of a given product. You can build a 1000 new Super Nintendos in a factory in Iowa if they don't sell on the marketplace then the time and money used in the production process was a waste.

cmon guy. obviously im talking about producing products which have a social demand. aint nobody talking about making super nintendos.

and when manufacturing goods that have a social demand there is much value in the production process.

No we do not agree on this, outsourcing is done across the globe and allows for countries to benefit from having expertise/comparative advantage in a variety of fields.

outsourcing when done strategically can be very beneficial, but my whole point is we are not outsourcing in ways that are strategically economically beneficial for the US. we are outsourcing in ways that are strategically and economically beneficial for corporations.


It is not common sense, it is man on the street outdated protectionist economics. Here is one economist who does not agree with you...

Bhagwati on outsourcing rhetoric - YouTube

again, protectionism is a very general term. but even still, there is a lot of protectionism currently happening in our current economic system so the policy is far from outdated. how can it be outdated if we still practice it?

the problem, again, is mismanagement of protectionist regulation. the current protectionist systems operate in a manner that benefits big business.


What is always interesting to me is that pro-protectionist want to rally against corporatism but then are eager to protect "some sectors" which often means leads to large domestic firms benefiting against less connected domestic/foreign medium and small sized firms.

it's all in how you regulate. protecting strategically important sectors of the economy does not have to lead to inequality. in fact if done correctly it leads to economic prosperity.



I have provided links and surveys, you have not provided citations of any sort and yet you continue to talk about how your arguments are "common sense" and how " no credible economist would refute anything I just said". I would like to see what economist influence you...please just name a couple of them.

https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy...08,d.dmg&fp=ef874089b9ec5761&biw=1272&bih=598
 

ogc163

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:heh::heh: You linked to the first page of a google search of 'pro manufacturing economists" as if 1. That shyt isn't maaaad lazy 2. My argument is anti-manufacturing. I am wasting my time arguing about this with you if this is what you are going to resort to.
 

OsO

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:heh::heh: You linked to the first page of a google search of 'pro manufacturing economists" as if 1. That shyt isn't maaaad lazy 2. My argument is anti-manufacturing. I am wasting my time arguing about this with you if this is what you are going to resort to.

breh, i barely have time to post here let alone do research like some teaching assistant.

but lucky for you i have a bibliography from a paper i wrote in college, which analyzed how countries build wealth economically, and how government policy and regulation play into economic growth. each one of these books supports my original position on manufacturing and protectionism.

Bibliography

Erik S. Reinert, How Rich Countries Got Rich…and Why Poor Countries Stay Poor (New York: Carroll & Graf Publishers, 2007)

Walter Rodney, How Europe Underdeveloped Africa (Washington D.C.: Howard University Press, 1972)

William Easterly, The White Man's Burden: Why the West's Efforts to Aid the Rest Have Done So Much Ill and So Little Good (New York: The Penguin Press, 2006)

Ha-Joon Chang, Bad Samaritans. (New York: Bloomsbury Press, 2008)

Kevin Danaher, 10 Reasons to Abolish the IMF & World Bank (New York: Seven Stories Press, 2001)

Joseph Stiglitz “What I Learned at the World Economic Crisis,” The New Republic (April 17, 2000)

Antonia Juhasz, The Bush Agenda: Invading the World, One Economy at a Time (New York: Regan Books, 2006)

IMF members’ distribution of voting power: http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/memdir/members.htm

David Landes, The Wealth and Poverty of Nations (London: W.W. Norton & Company Press, 1999)

Martin Feldstein, ‘Refocusing the IMF.’ Foreign Affairs March/April, Vol. 77, No.2, 1998.

Global Trends 2015: A Dialogue about the Future with Nongovernment Experts, National Intelligence Council, December 2000.

Mattis Lundberg and Lyn Squire, The Simultaneous Evolution of Growth and Inequality, World Bank, 1999.

John Perkins, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man (New York: Penguin Group, 2004)

Allan H. Meltzer, Meltzer Commission Report (Washington, 2000) Available for viewing at: http://www.house.gov/jec/imf/meltzer.htm

Maulana Karenga. Introduction to Black Studies (Los Angeles: University of Sankore Press, 2002)

George Ayittey, “The African Development Conundrum,” Making Poor Nations Rich: Entrepreneurship and the Process of Economic Development. Edited by Benjamin Powell (Stanford: Stanford University Press, 2008)

Stephen Ellis, “How to Rebuild Africa.” Beyond Humanitarianism, What You Need to Know About Africa and Why It Matters, Edited by Princeton N. Lyman and Patricia Dorff (New York: Council on Foreign Relations, 2007)

Niall Ferguson, Empire: The Rise and Demise of the British World Order and the Lessons from Global Power (New York: Basic Books, 2003)

Ross P. Buckley, “The Rich Borrow and the Poor Repay: The Fatal Flaw in International Finance.” World Policy Journal, Volume XIX, No. 4, Winter 2002/2003.

Friedrich List, The National System of Political Economy (London: Longmans, Green, and Company, 1841)

Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations (New York: Bantam Classics, 2003)

Alexander Hamilton, Report of Manufactures: Communication to the House of Representatives. 1791. Available for viewing and downloading at: Report on manufactures: communication to the House of Representatives Dec. 5 ... - United States. Dept. of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton - Google Books

William Easterly, The Elusive Quest for Growth (London: MIT Press, 2002)




but my question is this... if we already established protectionism as a current common practice, and you're not disagreeing about the manufacturing part, what exactly am i saying that you disagree with?

the original question of this thread was can manufacturing help revive the economy? and the answer is absolutely yes... anyone thinking different is misinformed.

but again manufacturing is not a panacea, its one prong in a several prong approach... but it is a KEY prong.
 

OsO

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breh, i barely have time to post here let alone do research like some teaching assistant.

but lucky for you i have a bibliography from a paper i wrote in college, which analyzed how countries build wealth economically, and how government policy and regulation play into economic growth. each one of these books supports my original position on manufacturing and protectionism.

Bibliography

Erik S. Reinert, How Rich Countries Got Rich…and Why Poor Countries Stay Poor (New York: Carroll & Graf Publishers, 2007)

Walter Rodney, How Europe Underdeveloped Africa (Washington D.C.: Howard University Press, 1972)

William Easterly, The White Man's Burden: Why the West's Efforts to Aid the Rest Have Done So Much Ill and So Little Good (New York: The Penguin Press, 2006)

Ha-Joon Chang, Bad Samaritans. (New York: Bloomsbury Press, 2008)

Kevin Danaher, 10 Reasons to Abolish the IMF & World Bank (New York: Seven Stories Press, 2001)

Joseph Stiglitz “What I Learned at the World Economic Crisis,” The New Republic (April 17, 2000)

Antonia Juhasz, The Bush Agenda: Invading the World, One Economy at a Time (New York: Regan Books, 2006)

IMF members’ distribution of voting power: http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/memdir/members.htm

David Landes, The Wealth and Poverty of Nations (London: W.W. Norton & Company Press, 1999)

Martin Feldstein, ‘Refocusing the IMF.’ Foreign Affairs March/April, Vol. 77, No.2, 1998.

Global Trends 2015: A Dialogue about the Future with Nongovernment Experts, National Intelligence Council, December 2000.

Mattis Lundberg and Lyn Squire, The Simultaneous Evolution of Growth and Inequality, World Bank, 1999.

John Perkins, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man (New York: Penguin Group, 2004)

Allan H. Meltzer, Meltzer Commission Report (Washington, 2000) Available for viewing at: http://www.house.gov/jec/imf/meltzer.htm

Maulana Karenga. Introduction to Black Studies (Los Angeles: University of Sankore Press, 2002)

George Ayittey, “The African Development Conundrum,” Making Poor Nations Rich: Entrepreneurship and the Process of Economic Development. Edited by Benjamin Powell (Stanford: Stanford University Press, 2008)

Stephen Ellis, “How to Rebuild Africa.” Beyond Humanitarianism, What You Need to Know About Africa and Why It Matters, Edited by Princeton N. Lyman and Patricia Dorff (New York: Council on Foreign Relations, 2007)

Niall Ferguson, Empire: The Rise and Demise of the British World Order and the Lessons from Global Power (New York: Basic Books, 2003)

Ross P. Buckley, “The Rich Borrow and the Poor Repay: The Fatal Flaw in International Finance.” World Policy Journal, Volume XIX, No. 4, Winter 2002/2003.

Friedrich List, The National System of Political Economy (London: Longmans, Green, and Company, 1841)

Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations (New York: Bantam Classics, 2003)

Alexander Hamilton, Report of Manufactures: Communication to the House of Representatives. 1791. Available for viewing and downloading at: Report on manufactures: communication to the House of Representatives Dec. 5 ... - United States. Dept. of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton - Google Books

William Easterly, The Elusive Quest for Growth (London: MIT Press, 2002)




but my question is this... if we already established protectionism as a current common practice, and you're not disagreeing about the manufacturing part, what exactly am i saying that you disagree with?

the original question of this thread was can manufacturing help revive the economy? and the answer is absolutely yes... anyone thinking different is misinformed.

but again manufacturing is not a panacea, its one prong in a several prong approach... but it is a KEY prong.


i showed how protectionism is currently happening with big business and banks.

it's already been proven in history several hundred times over that manufacturing is a key component to generating economic prosperity for countries.

then i provided references from the ivory tower to try and speak the language of academia... and yall come back with nothing.

yall whack :umad: and a waste of my time
 

ogc163

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:mindblown::merchant::snoop: This dude deadass said bringing out undergrad bibliographies with no context, and I know for a fact some of those economist don't agree with his position. Adam Smith is fukking famous for going at it with the mercantilist.

tumblr_mkeox8AyEY1qj80alo4_250.gif
 
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Vandelay

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The cost/benefit of manufacturing locally is not worth it on a large scale like it previous was...unless you want the price of products locally to double and triple its not coming back. Companies and economies grow when services and products become affordable, not the other way around.

I know you have done reports and what not in school...but have you ever looked at a p&l report for a major company...by far the most expensive aspect of maintaining a company is labor and labor related costs, ie benefits, etc.

China and southeast asians reliant on manufacturing as their source of income are going to have a rude wake up call, as foxconn and whoever else find a way to make automation cheaper than the salary per capita gdp for your average chinese day laborer.

Its why china is investing heavily in other industries because they know their growth is not sustainable and will actually go into remission if they rely on manufacturing for 100+ years. They are gonna hit that wall a lot sooner than we did.

We can examine this from another aspect...wired magazine had a great article years ago about americans utilizing chinas manufacturing strengths to enable startup businesses here locally. Small business is what grows and sustains the economy...you can create a product here locally, make the prototype, and export it to china for manufacture, and import it back here locally for sale. Its a very profitable business model, and will probably will be so for the foreseeable future. Theres a multitude of companies doing this now, and quite honestly theres room for growth for more companies to do it as well and both china and america can grow hand in hand.

Bringing manufacturing back on a large scale is a pipe dream.

We couldn't hold on to he barter system forever, the agricultural system, we cant hold on to the industrial economy forever...it has to adapt and evolve.
 

newworldafro

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In the Silver Lining
Citizens Receiving Food Aid from Federal Gov't Now Outnumber Full-Time Private Sector Workers

Citizens Receiving Food Aid from Federal Gov't Now Outnumber Full-Time Private Sector Workers

by Debra Heine8 Jul 2013

Which brings me to the latest figures coming from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, revealing that the number of Americans receiving food assistance has surpassed the number of full-time private sector workers in the U.S.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture estimates that a total of 101,000,000 people currently participate in at least one of the 15 food programs offered by the agency, at a cost of $114 billion in fiscal year 2012.

That means the number of Americans receiving food assistance has surpassed the number of full-time private sector workers in the U.S.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), there were 97,180,000 full-time private sector workers in 2012.

The population of the U.S. is 316.2 million people, meaning nearly a third of Americans receive food aid from the government.

Of the 101 million receiving food benefits, a record 47 million Americans participated in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), commonly known as food stamps. The USDA describes SNAP as the “largest program in the domestic hunger safety net.”

The USDA says the number of Americans on food stamps is a “historically high figure that has risen with the economic downturn.”

http://www.usda.gov/oig/webdocs/27001-0001-10.pdf
 

88m3

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O and when did I say CEO pay wasn't the driving force behind income inequality? The growing disparity between CEO and worker pay is the definition of income inequality :heh:

My question to you is, why is what some CEO is making more important to you than Americans having affordable access to basic things like healthcare and higher education?


What they need to do is get rid of minimum wage!
 
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