Nas - Magic 2 (Discussion thread)

[Ziggiy]

Switching from Hitboy to Alchemist would obviously have resulted in better crafted music because Alchemist is one of the all time greats, that's not even a question. There is zero basis in reality that Hitboy has had a better output than Alc in the last half decade, and implying otherwise is a joke. You can feel however you feel about Alchemist, but understand you're on an island, and no matter how much you try to shyt on Alc to prop up Hitboy, it's not going to change the consensus. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you need to relax and understand most people do not agree with your wild takes.

I fukk with Hitboy, but be serious.

You have no PROOF to back your claim which is why you sound crazy.

If we’re going by verifiable factors, its easy to make the claim that Nas and Hit Boy>>>> Nas and Alchemist. First off would be the simple fact that Nas himself has stated multiple times he wanted to lock in with Hit Boy and do an entire project. He’s NEVER stated the same desire to work with Alchemist. And one would think that, given Alc is a self professed Nas fan, that if Nas had ever wanted this pairing to happen, it would have happened more than FOUR times in 20 years. Again, these are FACTS not opinions. Soon as Nas went independent and was free to truly work with anyone he wanted with no potential industry red rape stopping him, he went to HIT BOY. Not Alchemist. Not Premo. Not insert 90’s sound evoking producer. This is FACT.

Moving on, looking at FACTS. The Nas/Hit Boy team up has been more commercially and critically successful than any pairing involving Alchemist. So there is no financial or artistic reason to say Nas should work with Alc over Hit Boy. Kings Disease produced by Hit Boy won the Grammy over Alfredo produced Alchemist. Now we can scream “fukk the Grammys” and say they have no relevance within Hip Hop culture, but the FACTS are that both Freddie and Alchemist stated they wanted to win that award, so it had some relevance to THEM.
Kings Disease 2 has higher critical acclaim than Shrines, Haram, and Bo Jackson. Kings Disease 3 was the highest acclaimed rap album of 2022. Again these aren’t opinions, they are FACTS.

So through NO verifiable metric can you make the claim that switching Alchemist with Hit Boy would equal better received music, better selling music, or more relevant music. You have an OPINION sure, and everyone is entitled to those, but to attempt to pass your OPINION as fact is again, disingenuous and an attempt to lessen Hit Boy, his ascension as a producer, his talent as a producer, and the musical inspiration that he’s given Nas. An inspiration that Alchemist clearly could not convey.

 

[Mike the Executioner]

Honestly I don’t even care what producer it is. Nas about to smack rappers around again next week and that’s all I care about.

This. Why do people care so much about who produces what? It's 2023, not 2002. We should have moved past this discussion years ago.

I already said Nas brings out the inner teenage white girl in a lot of posters. People are having barbershop debates over which producer is better when we might be getting a new album next week. What's going on?

Truth. People have kinda lost their minds on Hit-Boy since these Nas albums dropped.

You could've put Nas with anyone with 4 albums, and the online fans would've gone crazy for them. In all honesty, Hit's always been an average producer. There's nothing about his work that's ever been mind-blowing. What we like, is that he's working with Nas. But the Nas stans will definitely overrate dude just because of that.

Anyone even putting Hit in the same sentence with ALC is out of their damn mind.

The Hit-Boy albums are quality work. That's the main reason people love the pairing so much. That, and it's obvious the two have a strong bond musically. You can see that Nas is more motivated now than he's been in years, and you can hear it. On KD3, he sounded like he was having so much fun with all the ad-libs he was doing. If this era hadn't produced results, there would be no one defending Hit-Boy.

You know who I always wanted to work with Alchemist? Eminem. I said that for years. It didn't make any sense that Alchemist was Eminem's DJ and he hadn't gotten any album placements yet. Then I found out that Alchemist made beats for Revival and none of them were used. So when Music to Be Murdered By came out and I saw Alchemist's name, I figured it would be the best song on the album.

It wasn't. It ended up being the worst song on the album. Granted, I'm 100% sure that's due to Eminem's ear because he would definitely be the one to rap over a shytty Alchemist beat, especially in 2020. But it soured me on ever wanting them to work together again, and taught me that you don't know what you're going to get until you get it. I didn't think Hit-Boy would end up producing four (maybe five?) great albums for Nas when King's Disease came out. But I'm glad it happened and I'm glad the two found each other. I don't know what's going to happen if Alchemist ends up producing a Nas album. My money's on it being great, but until I hear it, I can't say that with any certainty. We all thought Nasir would be a classic and look what happened.

 

[LOST IN THE SAUCE]

You have no PROOF to back your claim which is why you sound crazy.

If we’re going by verifiable factors, its easy to make the claim that Nas and Hit Boy>>>> Nas and Alchemist. First off would be the simple fact that Nas himself has stated multiple times he wanted to lock in with Hit Boy and do an entire project. He’s NEVER stated the same desire to work with Alchemist. And one would think that, given Alc is a self professed Nas fan, that if Nas had ever wanted this pairing to happen, it would have happened more than FOUR times in 20 years. Again, these are FACTS not opinions. Soon as Nas went independent and was free to truly work with anyone he wanted with no potential industry red rape stopping him, he went to HIT BOY. Not Alchemist. Not Premo. Not insert 90’s sound evoking producer. This is FACT.

Moving on, looking at FACTS. The Nas/Hit Boy team up has been more commercially and critically successful than any pairing involving Alchemist. So there is no financial or artistic reason to say Nas should work with Alc over Hit Boy. Kings Disease produced by Hit Boy won the Grammy over Alfredo produced Alchemist. Now we can scream “fukk the Grammys” and say they have no relevance within Hip Hop culture, but the FACTS are that both Freddie and Alchemist stated they wanted to win that award, so it had some relevance to THEM.
Kings Disease 2 has higher critical acclaim than Shrines, Haram, and Bo Jackson. Kings Disease 3 was the highest acclaimed rap album of 2022. Again these aren’t opinions, they are FACTS.

So through NO verifiable metric can you make the claim that switching Alchemist with Hit Boy would equal better received music, better selling music, or more relevant music. You have an OPINION sure, and everyone is entitled to those, but to attempt to pass your OPINION as fact is again, disingenuous and an attempt to lessen Hit Boy, his ascension as a producer, his talent as a producer, and the musical inspiration that he’s given Nas. An inspiration that Alchemist clearly could not convey.

None of that has to do with the quality of the music. I really don't care about commercial success or relevancy, or anything other than how good the music sounds.

Hitboy and Nas are making great music together. They've been improving with every album, so I have no reason to doubt the next project they drop is going to somehow be even better than the last. None of that means that a Nas x Alchemist album wouldn't be next level, though. It's not disrespectful to Nas or Hitboy if people prefer to see that collab instead. The Hitboy defense team needs to turn the sensitivity dial down. People's minds aren't going to change because you shyt on Alchemist.

 

[Sound (∀√a) Maths]

Peace,

This Alchemist vs Hit-Boy argument is not only ridiculous but also very emotive. I get the points being made on both sides but as it has been pointed out; this is a Nas album!

Yes, Hit-Boy's sound (FL Studio) isn't as thick as Alchemist's (MPC etc) but some folks are being disingenuous, leaving out the mixing of these records that are playing a part. Alchemist has Eddie Sancho mixing his music whilst Hit-Boy has David Kim, click their names to see where the difference lies regarding their sound.

Alchemist is better at making traditional Hip-Hop beats but Hit-Boy is more versatile. On this KD series run, Hit-Boy has shown he can make great boom-bap canvasses for Nas to spit lyrics that evoke the same feelings it did in his prime.

Beats like these below evoke vintage Nas in various stages we are familiar with;
Blue Benz
Full Circle
The Cure
The Pressure
Rare
Store Run
Nobody
Count Me In
Composure
My Bible
Nas Is Good
Speechless
Meet Joe Black
40-16 Building
The Truth
Dedicated
Ghetto Reporter
Legit
Thun
Michael & Quincy
Recession Proof
I'm On Fire
Once A Man, Twice A Child
Get Light
First Time

Nas himself has always said it's about the working relationship that he holds in the highest regards when working with a producer.

Now, Alchemist has also made top-notch music with Nas so I understand the clamor to have him involved. I, myself, would like to see a mixture of producers with Hit-Boy taking more of an executive role as I believe it will shake things up and would stop this Hit-Boy vs X producer arguments, but if it's another Hit-Boy helmed project and it is good/great then !


Still, imagine a focused Nas with the likes of Black Milk, Organized Noize, DJ Dahi, Madlib, Sounwave, Hi-Tek, Terrace Martin, Knxwledge, Nottz, DJ Quik and Diamond D at their best?


To round it all up, let's just wait and see what we get then we can judge the music/songs for what they are not for who produced it. Peace



(P.S. If anyone wants to, we can get into analysing the sonics and sound choices of Hit-Boy's beats.)

 

[prophecypro]

People being weird about Hit Boy in here lol

If Nas has a chemistry and trust factor with him, let him ride it out

Sure theres other guys who are more legendary than him, made more classics and cultavated more dues in the underground and past eras like Alchemist but ultimatley the results speak for themselves from the diversity of the beats to the album sequencing to the structure of Nas delivery.

The knock on Hit is also the advantage here. He makes different kinda beats instead of just one signature sound so its like Nas is getting the type of production you'd have gotten out of those other guys anyway, without having to wait on them or get somebody to try fit them all together sonically on a project.

It feels like more people are happy looking at the credits than listening to the music but thats just me

 

[Soymuscle Mike]

Funny thing is, I don't think anybody has called Alchemist wack (in fact I said he's top 15 for me, HB isn't) - whereas a few dudes straight up called HitBoy mediocre.

Yet, like it has been for Nas fans since IWW - if you read the comments y'all are acting like we're the ones overreacting.

All myself, and a few others, have said is that we that we give HB credit for giving Nas his first 4peat - and since you want to use "concensus" to prop up Alchemist over HB, you have to give HB the same standard of measure and acknowledge the 4peat.

 

[Prolific_1011]

Dude on Reddit is pondering how much info to share (and when) after someone told him not to spoil too much before the release.

 

[BiggWebb79]

illMagic 2 on the way, the billy goat been working working

 

[Slim Charles]

Dude on Reddit is pondering how much info to share (and when) after someone told him not to spoil too much before the release.

Yeh to be honest I’m not keen on knowing too much. I like to get some info but i think cool for the collabs to be a surprise. Just song titles enough for me to get excited without knowing too much. Ain’t got long to wait if dropping Friday

 

[ℒℴѵℯJay ELECTUA]

I would pay for a nas and bronze nazareth collaboration.

 

[Pop123]

Dude on Reddit is pondering how much info to share (and when) after someone told him not to spoil too much before the release.

If he’s a fan why would he be leaking any info really? Weird. If Nas wanted his team to put shyt out there they would.

 

[Ziggiy]

Hitboy and Nas are making great music together. They've been improving with every album, so I have no reason to doubt the next project they drop is going to somehow be even better than the last. None of that means that a Nas x Alchemist album wouldn't be next level, though. It's not disrespectful to Nas or Hitboy if people prefer to see that collab instead. The Hitboy defense team needs to turn the sensitivity dial down. People's minds aren't going to change because you shyt on Alchemist.

Funny thing is, I don't think anybody has called Alchemist wack (in fact I said he's top 15 for me, HB isn't) - whereas a few dudes straight up called HitBoy mediocre.

Yet, like it has been for Nas fans since IWW - if you read the comments y'all are acting like we're the ones overreacting.

All myself, and a few others, have said is that we that we give HB credit for giving Nas his first 4peat - and since you want to use "concensus" to prop up Alchemist over HB, you have to give HB the same standard of measure and acknowledge the 4peat.

 

[Budda]

Ya'll are really overrating Alchemist here and I don't know if its to downplay Hit or whatever. This has gotten ridiculous at this point.

Alchemist is one of the Goats it’s been a common opinion on forums since I was posting on AHH in 09 since then he’s done nothing to waver that opinion, it’s nothing to do with Hit Boy who is a great producer himself but ALC has bonafide classics dating back to the late 90’s and he’s still producing tracks like Johnny P Caddy he deserves all the props in the world.

 

[JustCKing]

We're talking albums, not one offs. Alc is in his (arguable) prime and hasn't put out a single dud in more than a decade, but you think he's going to drop the ball with Nas, an artist he already has chemistry with? Why? How does that make sense? He's dropping an album every 3 to 6 months that are consistently up there with the best produced projects in that year.

Don't take my word for it, feel free to google who the greatest producers of all time are and good luck finding a list that doesn't mention his name up there beside RZA, Preemo, Dre etc.

Same thing I said to the other guy, you're entitled to your opinion, but you need to realize it's against the consensus, and that's perfectly fine. You feel different than most people do, and that's still valid. You do not need to put down Alc to prop up Hitboy, though. It's weirdo behavior.

LOL. Alc being in his prime is arguable as is him not putting out a single dud in more than a decade. Nobody thought Kanye would drop the ball and that was only 7 songs. Kanye had chemistry with Nas too. People loved "Still Dreamin" and "Let There Be Light" and "Poppa Was a Playa". There's also "Everything I Love" and Kanye's "We Major". Nasir had no reason not to be a classic, right? I mean, he and Kanye obviously had chemistry and Kanye's widely considered a great.


Breh, Google search first page brought back results and Alchemist was nowhere to be found in a Top 5. I am by no means downplaying Alc to big up Hit Boy because he doesn't come up on those lists either when Googled.

 

[spliz]

nikka you STILL cannot name one b tier producer whose produced classic songs, hit songs, award winning songs, on classic albums with a MULTITUDE of different legendary artists. That was the crux of our debate. YOU put it out there that Hit Boy was a b tier producer, which is something that is easily disproven and I called you on your bullshyt. Simple






Lets get one thing straight, I NEVER shytted on Hit Boy or the concept of Hit Boy producing Nas albums. NEVER. I was one of the few who knew Hit Boy was going to give Nas heat and never doubted the pairing for a second (and I have the posts to prove it) I didn’t believe in the initial tracklisting because it didn’t fit Nas established formula of having minimal features on his albums but that in no way shape or fashion meant I doubted Hit Boy or his abilities. I been fukking with Hit Boy since I first heard Asap’s 1 Train and looked up who produced it. I ALWAYS trust in who Nas chooses to produce for him no matter who it is.

How I feel about Alchemist is how I feel about Alchemist. It is what it is. But again, lessening Hit Boy and HIS accomplishments to prop up Alchemist shouldn’t be tolerated. Hit Boy has earned HIS place as a Top Tier producer and more than proved his versatility and talent with work he’s done, not only with invigorating Nas, but his work with Benny and Big Sean over the past 4 years. Certain posters really wanted to act like switching Hit Boy with Alc over the last 4 years would somehow have magically equated to better crafted music and thats simply as asinine and insane as saying he should still be working with the Illmatic lineup exclusively. ALL of that talk is downright retarded and it has ZERO basis in reality with what we’ve seen from both Hit and Alc in the last half decade.

I’m not lessening Hit Boy’s accomplishments by simply saying that Alchemist has done more and is in higher standing overall. I don’t even think Hit Boy HIMSELF would disagree with that. So why shouldn’t it be tolerated? Cause he made these Nas albums? That’s not fair. U go in a random room of producers and ask them this question and they will say the same shyt. I’m not diminishing Hit Boy at all. You are diminishing Alchemist. And that’s where my problem lies. U don’t have to diminish Alchemist and reduce him to some white producer like he’s Eminem or some shyt just to stand up for Hit. Cause that’s a dishonest stance. Objectively. U can feel whatever u want personally.