MJ vs Lebron: Accolades

[Everythingg]

All I know is. Phil wouldn’t dare put MJ on Bron. But any Bron coach would say go guard MJ. MJ ain’t never seen nothing like Bron ever. Idgaf about stats or rings. Bron would torture MJ on both ends

 

[Tflasha]

The irony of a Michael Jordan fan saying this. Meet the fukking kettle, Pot. Lmao...



4 championships is 4 championships, that is a LOT of championships. Only a few guys have won more who weren't on Russell's Celtics, and only Russell himself, Mike, and Mikan won more championships as the best player on their team...

If you subtract the NBA before 1970, the most championships won as a team's best player looks like this: (1)Mike with 6 (2)Bron and Duncan with 4...

Man got to 10 Finals in his first 17 years. 9 in his first 15 years. Come on, bro. He has a losing record because 7 of his 10 Finals were vs dynastic teams; teams don't become dynasties by getting beat on. He got two chips off those dynasties. You tell me the guy who would have won more than 2 rings vs 7 Finals of SA/GS. Mike not even getting there in '07 and we know this because he never got anything close to a Finals with his rosters that were comparable to '07 Cavs...

Bron went off in '14 and '15 and couldn't overcome injuries and shytty play from his castmates. But I guess if Mike averages 40 those years his team magically wins? Bron went off in '17 and '18 and again we know Mike not even getting there with that '18 roster...





Your GOAT case is built on all those things you named: how you were at peak; how you were at prime; your degree of dominance; postseason resume and by resume I mean performance more than wins or losses...

Because we both know you can be phenomenal in a series loss, we both know your team can just not be as good as the opponent; and we both know you can be bad or average in a series win and you can win a series just based on you having the better team...

So playoff "resume" to me is more about how you played vs playoff competition and with each round you advance your performance takes on added importance. As in, elite second round performances are more relevant than elite first round performances, elite conference finals performances are more relevant than elite Semis performances, and elite Finals performances are more relevant than elite conference finals performances...

Also your career has to be framed in totality, if you walked in the door playing at All-Star to All-Pro level that matters vs someone else who spent his first year or few on the bench or in a lesser role than one of the best players on a team. Longevity matters, and by longevity I don't even think "full career" so much as length of prime. Vince Carter played 22 years, longest career in NBA history. His longevity doesn't really mean shyt because he left his prime 12-14 years before his career ended, his prime was maybe a 5-7 year stretch max anyway, and his prime wasn't historically impressive---->he was never one of the 5 best players in basketball and even at his peak he was only borderline Top 10...

So when I think about "longevity" I'm talking length of prime...

Guys here shyt on accolades when they want, and as this thread attests, they champion accolades when it supports their argument. I'm consistent across the board, yes there are cases of earning accolades that aren't deserved, and cases an award was missed out on but you deserved it, but for the most part, the accolades are a result of top tier play...

It's an all-encompassing evaluation that you have to at least try to be objective about. Obviously I don't think Mike is the greatest player ever, however I'm on record many times as saying I have no issue with people who do, it's the supporting arguments that don't work most of the time. I can easily boil Mike's GOAT case to this:

•greatest player of his era
•arguably highest peak ever (only Wilt and LeBron are close)
•entered the NBA wrecking shyt (wasnt no one's sidekick or bench player)
•10+ year prime (regardless where you start or end it I think he had over a decade that he was an elite, Top 5 player which matters greatly to me)
•arguably greatest scorer ever in a game where the team that scores the most points win the game
•GOAT-level defensive superstar guard at peak
•6 championships, all as the best player/#1 on his team, never anybody's #2
•8 ECF runs, all as the best player on his team
•all the accolades
•all the above means he's arguably the greatest player ever

So I can easily see Mike's GOAT case. And contrary to popular belief, all these GOATs including Mike can have cases made against them. There is no one greatest player ever because all these guys weren't competing against each other at the same time all of them were in their primes in the same era. It's all subjective to what criteria one values most, but as I say, even though I don't personally see Mike as the greatest player ever, I definitely believe he has a really strong case...

How is Bron an MJ wannabe?





The only loss that is attributable to his play is '11. And in a comp with Mike that's absolutely fair to hold against Bron since Mike never had the '11 Finals performance. But that's it. The other 5 losses in The Finals weren't because of LeBron's play...

Not a single one of those guys you named peaked higher than LeBron, they arent even arguable...

Boy just exposed himself with this long ass insert "acceptance issues"

 

[Tflasha]

All I know is. Phil wouldn’t dare put MJ on Bron. But any Bron coach would say go guard MJ. MJ ain’t never seen nothing like Bron ever. Idgaf about stats or rings. Bron would torture MJ on both ends

you should be negged to oblivion for typing this like 2011 didnt happen​

 

[murksiderock]

I'll say it every time we have these threads. 2011 ended Lebron's hopes of being the goat. No fukking way a goat performs like his did in 2011 finals. It was disgusting. It would have been one thing if he scored 40ppg and lost, but this nikka averged only 17 and disappeared in 4 straight 4th quarters. Disgusting

It is beyond me how Lebron stans can even fix their mouths to say he's better than Jordan knowing that transpired. It's blasphemous honestly.

If that's the case then why are there people who say other guys are greater than Mike?

•why are there people who call Kobe the GOAT after his '04 Finals showing?
•why are there people who call Bird the GOAT after his '81 Finals performance?
•why are there people who call Wilt the GOAT after his '69 Finals performance?
•why are there people who call Magic the GOAT after his '84 Finals performance?
•why are there people who call Kareem the GOAT after his '74 Finals performance?

Here's a hint, maybe none of these guys' careers is defined by a low point because they all bounced back from it and redeemed themselves. You may not personally feel any of these guys are the GOAT but the reality is poor play, or "choking" if you prefer, in The Finals by a superstar didn't start with Bron...

But he's the only one yall want defined by it. Since then he went to 8 more Finals and won 4 championships. But let's define his career by the low point, no one else...

Do you want to list these accolades side by side?

You said "it's not close". What isn't close, number of chips? FMVPs or MVPs? All-Pros? What isn't close?

Only thing you gone say is scoring titles lmao...

 

[nairdas]

If that's the case then why are there people who say other guys are greater than Mike?

•why are there people who call Kobe the GOAT after his '04 Finals showing?
•why are there people who call Bird the GOAT after his '81 Finals performance?
•why are there people who call Wilt the GOAT after his '69 Finals performance?
•why are there people who call Magic the GOAT after his '84 Finals performance?
•why are there people who call Kareem the GOAT after his '74 Finals performance?

Here's a hint, maybe none of these guys' careers is defined by a low point because they all bounced back from it and redeemed themselves. You may not personally feel any of these guys are the GOAT but the reality is poor play, or "choking" if you prefer, in The Finals by a superstar didn't start with Bron...

But he's the only one yall want defined by it. Since then he went to 8 more Finals and won 4 championships. But let's define his career by the low point, no one else...

But Jordan is considered the GOAT by considerable more people than those guys and it large part because he never choked in the finals. So the point you're trying to make is irrelevant.

I'm not say Lebron isn't great, but you can't be the goat with that on your resume. Lebron was literally the reason the Heat lost the finals that year. You can't surpass Jordan and costing your team a championship. You just can't do it.

Now I'm being nice and only mentioning 2011. Don't make me bring up his other finals losses

 

[Raw Lyrics]

i get what you are saying

bulls stayed contenders when mj had to take break though

everytime bron left a squad they went right back to the lottery

That’s because Jordan allowed a no name coach to implement a system which led to their first three titles.

Also, several former Bulls are on record as stating that Jordan’s competitiveness made the practices so intense that the actual games were sometimes easier.

Hence, when Jordan left that first time the Bulls still had excellent momentum.

Jordan knew by buying into a system his stats would decrease, but his team would be significantly better when he took a breather (or when he retired).

LeBron never considered playing into a system because he values individual stats a bit more. His practices weren’t as intense and when he leaves a franchise they’re a mess because he was the entire system.

 

[Diondon]

All I know is. Phil wouldn’t dare put MJ on Bron. But any Bron coach would say go guard MJ. MJ ain’t never seen nothing like Bron ever. Idgaf about stats or rings. Bron would torture MJ on both ends

Breh, you're hilarious

 

[Hacksaw Jim Thuggin]

More like Jordan left some questions blank, but answered all of the hardest questions correctly, and the teacher decided not to penalize him for any of the questions he did get wrong (like how Jordan stans ignore 1995 and excuse everything that happened in Washington and before 91).

It's like they don't count anything until he starts winning rings

 

[Cryptocurrency Scarface]

MJ - but not because of this 6-0 in the finals idea. Remember the whole season counts not one series if you lose at an earlier stage it doesn't give you a pass and certainly not that shytty Lebron had a stacked team argument.

I saw the last dance and there was something incredible that MJ had. He was willing the team to crazy wins in crazy circumstances never made excuses
he had a leadership and no nonsense attitude towards his team mates .

2011 was horrible for Bron it was an awful choke job, two less rings no DPOY.

On the other hand Bron beat a 72-10 team was 3-1 down and won with 3 different teams two on the east conf one on the west conf. his stats are are unrivalled except maybe by Kareem who's records he's breaking all the time.

 

[Supa]

Lebron stans always ignore this

Can't be the GOAT when you disappeared on your team in the Finals and got worked by 6'2" Jason Terry

Magic literally said on air before before a Finals, "The key to this game is Lebron James. Can he outplay Jason Terry?" The answer was no

MJ's in his first Finals averaged 31-7-11

Jordan was first team all defense 9 times to Lebron's 5. MJ is also the only player to win a scoring title, DPOY, and MVP in the same season. DPOY as a 2 guard in the big man era. Oh, and he averaged 37ppg.

There's really no argument no matter how hard you teenyboppers try.

6 for 6

6 Finals MVP's

Meanwhile Lebron hasn't played any defense in ages, changes teams, tries to stack the deck with superstars, stat pads, and missed the playoffs in his prime

 

[bigde09]

Im at the point where I don’t have a problem with someone calling Lebron goat even though I prefer Jordan. It’s 1a 1b at this point. they both had things that helped their career. Jordan played in the expansion era that watered down the league. Lebron has the ability to jump from team to team and stack his teams. I think it comes down to preference.

 

[murksiderock]

But Jordan is considered the GOAT by considerable more people than those guys and it large part because he never choked in the finals. So the point you're trying to make is irrelevant.

I'm not say Lebron isn't great, but you can't be the goat with that on your resume. Lebron was literally the reason the Heat lost the finals that year. You can't surpass Jordan and costing your team a championship. You just can't do it.

Now I'm being nice and only mentioning 2011. Don't make me bring up his other finals losses

My point was that there are people who favor guys other than Mike as GOAT who also had low points in The Finals...

MJ - but not because of this 6-0 in the finals idea. Remember the whole season counts not one series if you lose at an earlier stage it doesn't give you a pass and certainly not that shytty Lebron had a stacked team argument.

I saw the last dance and there was something incredible that MJ had. He was willing the team to crazy wins in crazy circumstances never made excuses
he had a leadership and no nonsense attitude towards his team mates .

2011 was horrible for Bron it was an awful choke job, two less rings no DPOY.

On the other hand Bron beat a 72-10 team was 3-1 down and won with 3 different teams two on the east conf one on the west conf. his stats are are unrivalled except maybe by Kareem who's records he's breaking all the time.

This is at least trying to be objective and I can respect it...

Lebron stans always ignore this

Can't be the GOAT when you disappeared on your team in the Finals and got worked by 6'2" Jason Terry

Magic literally said on air before before a Finals, "The key to this game is Lebron James. Can he outplay Jason Terry?" The answer was no

MJ's in his first Finals averaged 31-7-11

Jordan was first team all defense 9 times to Lebron's 5. MJ is also the only player to win a scoring title, DPOY, and MVP in the same season. DPOY as a 2 guard in the big man era. Oh, and he averaged 37ppg.

There's really no argument no matter how hard you teenyboppers try.

6 for 6

6 Finals MVP's

Meanwhile Lebron hasn't played any defense in ages, changes teams, tries to stack the deck with superstars, stat pads, and missed the playoffs in his prime

It's widely agreed upon in basketball circles that Mike's defense was overrated by proxy of defensive ability being far less defined and sophisticated. People counted steals and blocks in Mike's day and nothing else. He winning 0 DPOY in today's era the way you can pick apart his defensive weaknesses...

Its widely understood that Peak Bron was a greater defender than Peak Mike...

All yhe rest of this, you Mike heads have terrible arguments in supporting his GOAT case...

I think it comes down to preference.

That's all it boils down to. They didn't play in the same era vs the same teams and rules and circumstances. It's preferential...

 

[Rekkapryde]

4 championships is 4 championships, that is a LOT of championships.

Wasn't arguing it wasn't.

But I'm not putting someone on GOAT levels who doesn't have a winning record in championship games/series. Not moving the goalposts for that shyt.

 

[010101]

That’s because Jordan allowed a no name coach to implement a system which led to their first three titles.

Also, several former Bulls are on record as stating that Jordan’s competitiveness made the practices so intense that the actual games were sometimes easier.

Hence, when Jordan left that first time the Bulls still had excellent momentum.

Jordan knew by buying into a system his stats would decrease, but his team would be significantly better when he took a breather (or when he retired).

LeBron never considered playing into a system because he values individual stats a bit more. His practices weren’t as intense and when he leaves a franchise they’re a mess because he was the entire system.

old man zen for sure was a blessing to mj's career

but he wasn't all in from the door zen had to show his way worked

mj's antagonistic relationships with his teammates were not a plus

they were fortunate to have a coach & other vets that were capable of managing & mitigating the damage done to team dynamics/chemistry

it's true bron is the system though that's facts

like i said he was the only real golden.ticket.player.

drop him on any squad they became contenders

*

 

[NoMorePie]

How many finals did MJ lose