koreans going hard on american media

MrNoFlyZone

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Allah

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I think it is important, and I also think it is important that you consider all the things this documentary leaves out about America

I think for example it would be interesting to know Americans have things like human rights and jobs... and that everyone isn't starving

I think it would be interesting to contrast the levels of propagandism used by NK vs that "used by" the US (I use quotations because at least in the US there are no direct connections between the propaganda and the govt)

So its like this thing is only giving 1/10th the story. If we are going to talk about propaganda.

:childplease:
 

714562

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I disagree with the fundamental premise here -- that the entertainment establishment is somehow sinister or fundamentally evil. The conclusion that entertainment distracts people from their troubles and assuages their worries enough for them to go to work in the morning is hardly novel. That's been true since the idea of "leisure" emerged -- in other words, since the beginning of humanity. It behooves every government to give us entertainment because if it wasn't there, we would demand it on our own.

So what's the gripe? That people aren't empathetic enough? That some people care more about Kanye West than what's going on in Washington DC? We live in a nation of millions. This isn't Athens, where every "free man" in the Republic participates in the main organ of government at any time. You can't make 311 million people give a shyt. Their main concerns are job/food/security. Until something actively and maliciously interferes with job/food/security, nobody will care. That's not a result of propaganda. That's how people are. People in other countries don't care any more or any less. It took years nay, decades or prodding before Egypt revolted against a military dictatorship. In some cases, it took centuries. Why have Chinese people tolerated the modern incarnation of the Communist party? Because it gives them just enough rights to keep their food, their job, and their security, along with a degree of improvement in their condition over time.

Yes, certain business and political entities take care to present themselves in a positive light on your TV screen for their own sake. They're fighting for your dollar, your opinion and your vote because they know that you have a historically inculcated right to shyt on the government and those in charge without getting arrested. That is the ultimate right and you have it. Our entertainment industry, simplistic as it is, offers a wide range of rights to the journalistic establishment regarding what they can and can't say. If it seems a bit too unsubtle, that's not because they're trying to brainwash you. It's because people aren't policy wonks. They don't want to watch how the government actually works. If they did, they'd watch C-SPAN, which is readily available on anyone's television.

I would much rather live in a society where a bunch of marketing professionals sit around a table and try to figure out what my taste is -- a society where I have freedom of speech and thought -- instead of living in a country where government has no legal check on taking my rights away on the basis of "protecting me" like North Korea.

American wars weren't fought because the public was brainwashed. They were caused by real mistakes and real errors in judgement by those in power, as well as socio-psychological trends that have been common in Americans since the beginning of the country. For example, the idea that our government, borne of a revolution against tyranny, is morally superior. Or the idea that top-down government solutions intrinsically reek of tyranny (read: communism). Or the idea that democratic principles are a result of the Kingdom of God endowing people with rights and providing a natural check on ultimately false earthly domains, and therefore atheists are to be regarded with suspicion as potential tyrants (read: communists).

The truth and the patterns of behavior are all in the history, not in McDonalds commercials.
 

Yuzo

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You can't make 311 million people give a shyt.

why tho? i want to see if you can explain this without implying that human beings are just inherently stupid to you which seems to be the main argument youre riding out on so fiercely
 

714562

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why tho? i want to see if you can explain this without implying that human beings are just inherently stupid to you which seems to be the main argument youre riding out on so fiercely

Stupid? Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said they were stupid.:smh:

They just have more immediate concerns in their day-to-day lives. Concerns that, if left unchecked, will have a much swifter effect on the quality of their existence.

If that's "stupid" to you, then you're way more cynical than I am.
 

Yuzo

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so why cant people ever have the ability to make critical decisions about society that you think they dont have ability to do so far? elaborate directly on this. dont avoid this question.
 
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:dead: at "narcissistic parasite" I'm fukking dead but :wow: I need to leave this country for a while for real. :what: at that "The Swan" show. This country is more awful than I thought. Capitalism at its finest eh? This documentary is reawakening as fukk. Shows that everything here can be sued to make money.

And dont try to point fingers at North Korea for being commies for them telling the truth. Thats the same shyt they were talking about in this film your doing.


The thing about this is: Humans arent stupid at all but theyve been conditioned for centuries to think a certain way. Someone came up with the most incredible strategy to control people. Oh wait I think its called RELIGION. Nah jk thats an argument for another time but that is something that is a factor in narcissistic consumerism. Think about it. Xmas is the only holiday where people go out and spend large amounts of money, most of the time money they dont have, and if you ask them why exactly they do it, they have no clue.
 
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Alot of us talk about how much this generation sucks and this that and the third but something we dont really notice is more of us are starting to smell the bullshyt. That alone should breed some hope for the future generations. Call me crazy but hipsters had the right idea. You go against the mainstream. It only sucks because the same propagandist found a way to totally crush the hipster image and in fact make it what it was intended not to be: mainstream. My mother always told me be a leader not a follower and its really true. Sometimes we need to embrace the simpler metaphors and sayings rather than seeking the more complex explanations.
 

714562

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so why cant people ever have the ability to make critical decisions about society that you think they dont have ability to do so far? elaborate directly on this. dont avoid this question.

Are you finished with duck-tales? When did I say they can't EVER make critical decisions?

They're perfectly competent to make critical decisions about society if the right incentives exist. It's hard to make those incentives exist simultaneously for millions of people at a time, a chunk of which may consider their lives to be quite satisfying and may not want any significant change at all.

We don't live in a magical fairy land where every schmuck attends a screening of a Somalian documentary and decides, "Holy crap, everyone drop what you're doing!"

In the meantime, plenty of other valid incentives exist -- wife and kids to feed. You're going to call people stupid for waking up at 9AM to do their thing and go to work instead of attending a human rights rally? You're going to call them insensitive and incapable of making "critical" decisions?

Some people change too quickly and get caught up in tons of white-college-campus-causes that have no significant impact on anything. Some people change too slowly and have ignorant opinions. But if you want BIG movement, it usually takes a BIG push in the right direction, whether it's a particularly gruesome awareness campaign or a terrorist attack. Before the Japanese tsunami caused that nuclear meltdown, Germany was had nuclear power plants of its own. That disaster was a big enough push for the entire country to go ahead and say, "Nuclear power is not going to exist her anymore." Other countries (like France) have had better experiences and weren't really buying it. That's life bro. Some change quickly, some change too quickly, others make tiny adjustments in their daily lives that may add up over time, and still others don't change at all until they get knocked on the head. If that disgusts you, then you have my condolences. You probably have a grudge against most of humanity. :manny:

I'm sorry that you think people who don't act on what I'm sure are those very, very informed (:thumbsdown:) opinions of yours, but you need to step out of your little holier-than-thou arrogance bubble and realize that other people live other lives that demand 24/7 attention. And you probably follow the same damn pattern I just described.

Yes, things could be better here.

But like I said before, I'd rather have corporations and politicians spending megabucks and falling over themselves to discover my opinion while reserving the legal right to say and write whatever I want about them, against the backdrop of a press corps that's free to say outrageously critical things about politicians, even if it caters to the lower denominator because normal people fall asleep to C-SPAN.

Now stop trolling me.
 

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Honestly, I agree with and understand a lot of what JJ is saying my only problem is when your true to get the root of the problem.

When too many people aren't informed.

For example, one of my main gripes about the raising trend of obesity in America. There's no denying this. Obviously some steps in the right direction need to be taken. :scusthov: at me seeing obese 4 year olds, already addicted to Mcdonalds.

Obesity could affect 42% of Americans by 2030

I could give two sh*t about what advertisers and do corporations until it becomes an endangerment to society. I'm sorry a lot of things in country are inversely politically motivated. There's just no way around it breh :manny:. Everywhere you turn, there is deregulation of a certain industry that probably wouldn't fly in another "civilized western" country.

For example: The Mcdonalds menu, in Germany is a lot different the one in America, despite the obvious reason that they're two separate countries. But Germany's menu offers vegetarian alternatives, and the food at Mcdonalds in Germany doesn't look like slop. (I'll post pictures of the menu's if necessary for bigots.)

Welcome to profit central. I'm sorry lobbyist have corrupted our way of live. Actually American has always been influenced by lobbying from it's creation. The only problem is most people don't know or realize this. I guess we should except our fate as Americans because we're doomed to this western diet which leads to path of diabetes, high blood pressure, cancer etc.

While offer countries are suffering from malnourishment we're suffering from obesity. :manny: could be worse I guess

I'm sorry that more people weren't concerned about their health until they grew older or it was too late, typical Americans right. :shaq:

Even though all the signs were there. :manny:

Addiction-like reward dysfunction and compulsive eating in obese rats: Role for dopamine D2 receptors

I guess as American's we should except that fact that lobbying corporations are taking advantage of our health to exceed record profits.

At the end of the day, I know most people work a 9-5, have kids and once they get off work they're just trying to chill. I'm just saying maybe we should reevaluate the whole working 9-5. Maybe a similar system compared to France.

France drops the 35-hour working week - Telegraph

Honestly I don't see what's sohh bad about working 35 hours a weeks + receiving 4-5 weeks off a year of paid vacation. I know that sounds like torture, cot damn socialist, how dare they.

I mentioned in a previous post why that doesn't work. Socialism tries to control the EQ point, which never works. The solution IDK :manny:

But our system needs to be reevaluated for the better.

Seriously though, I'm trying to keep this brief, because I could have easily made a drawn out essay correlating a series of things.

But I'm a lazy mildly-dyslexic writer :noah: :sadbron::why:
 

Yuzo

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I'm sorry that you think people who don't act on what I'm sure are those very, very informed (:thumbsdown:) opinions of yours, but you need to step out of your little holier-than-thou arrogance bubble and realize that other people live other lives that demand 24/7 attention. And you probably follow the same damn pattern I just described.

so for these people that have "lives that demand 24/7 attention" why does having that invalidate their ability to be intellectuals? you typed all of that and still didnt explain why having a life "that demands 24/7 attention" correlates to an inability to make "311 million people give a shyt"

i dont understand how you can type so much and still not demonstrate with any straightforward logic why you think the connection between these two states are actually necessitated

for example there are many people who have "lives that demand 24/7 attention" and actually are quite intelligent and actually do possess an ability to "give a shyt"

(in fact, what does having a life that demands 24/7 attention even mean? can you demonstrate who wouldnt have a life that demands 24/7 attention? what kind of life demands only 11/3 attention?)

it honestly sounds like youre using these terms as hyperbole to try to put together an image that most americans are not smart and that creating a smarter america is impossible to have. so do you think its true that a smarter america is impossible to ever have?
 

714562

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Honestly, I agree with and understand a lot of what...

Right, and those examples are very tragic. But "deregulation" as we perceive it doesn't necessarily come from brainwashing. That word is rooted very deeply in the American consciousness which, as previously mentioned, has been very much against any form of top-down control since the nation was founded.

In the most basic of American binaries -- less "intrusive" government is, as a rule, positive. The concept that people sometimes actively seek to deregulate the government at your expense has emerged at numerous times during our history.

First, it broke trough when Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" elucidated the horrible industrial conditions of the guilded age.

Then, it resurfaced when the Great Depression hit and people blamed the crisis on big bankers (the actual reasons being a bit more complicated).

That attitude more or less sustained itself until the late 60s and early 70s, when Vietnam and Watergate shattered faith in public service and central government -- and that slowly mutated into the Republican deregulation credo we know today. The ongoing conflict with the Soviets is another big social factor. In the Cold War, American citizenry defined themselves in diametric opposition to everything that the Soviets were. They are atheist...we are god-fearing. They are big government...we should be smaller government (smaller than they are, at least).

Same thing goes for health care. Americans dislike top-down change and, after the 70s, they REALLY decided to hate it. America was an economic superpower, so it felt comfortable in NOT adopting institutions of other countries too quickly, believing that its own were naturally responsible for their superiority.

When you look in the history, you find a much richer and nuanced reason than "The b*stards hypnotized us." Part of the American mythos sold to immigrants was ," Work hard, hard, hard! You'll become a millionaire!" So a lot of people threw health in the bushes and stopped caring about the food they ate. Americans don't like excessive (with the definition of excessive being subjective) subsidies, so we don't pay people to live in the countryside like they do in Germany (maybe France, dunno)-- where those people presumably make artisinal foods with a pretty penny from the state. We want to keep going and work because we think there's a big American dream at the end of the tunnel.

What I'm saying is that historical and sociological background trump "brainwashing." The only reason people want to call it "brainwashing" is because they're absolutely convinced they're right. In some cases, they're very clearly right and it will take time to re-adjust the sociological boundaries of a nation and make a change. Others cases, not so much. We have problems because our societal principles and consciousness are running into problems they've never had to deal with before, so they're slowly going to adjust. Brainwashing isn't in the picture unless you believe that all bad situations form non-organically through brainwashing and not from cultural defects that have years of historical precedent. Those people in government are part of the historical milieu. Do you think they go to bed at night thinking THEY'RE the bad guys?

When you see a North Korean documentary whose main criticism is war/the entertainment industry, and it flashes pictures of the Pope? The Pope who has nothing to do with the movie? THAT'S brainwashing. It's important to distinguish pure propaganda from social ills In fact, we could use some MORE brainwashing. I'd love the federal government to take a WAY more active role in public schools because it's fukking ridiculous that we let each state do its own thing in the 21st century. But that'll take time, and we'll have to reach that point OUR OWN WAY -- same as Middle Eastern countries reaching good representative government THEIR WAY.

I'm going to bed now.:ld:
 

Gallo

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When you eat dogs, your opinions are null and void...










































I'll watch it later.
 

714562

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so for these people that have "lives that demand 24/7 attention" why does having that invalidate their ability to be intellectuals? you typed all of that and still didnt explain why having a life "that demands 24/7 attention" correlates to an inability to make "311 million people give a shyt"

i dont understand how you can type so much and still not demonstrate with any straightforward logic why you think the connection between these two states are actually necessitated

for example there are many people who have "lives that demand 24/7 attention" and actually are quite intelligent and actually do possess an ability to "give a shyt"

(in fact, what does having a life that demands 24/7 attention even mean? can you demonstrate who wouldnt have a life that demands 24/7 attention? what kind of life demands only 11/3 attention?)

it honestly sounds like youre using these terms as hyperbole to try to put together an image that most americans are not smart and that creating a smarter america is impossible to have. so do you think its true that a smarter america is impossible to ever have?

Okay, so you're objectively not very good with this reading comprehension thing, I'll do you a favor and boil it down.

Here. 3 bite-sized points for you to think about, torn from the above points that I think summarize what I'm trying to say.

J.J. Hunsecker said:
American wars weren't fought because the public was brainwashed. They were caused by real mistakes and real errors in judgement by those in power, as well as socio-psychological trends that have been common in Americans since the beginning of the country. For example, the idea that our government, borne of a revolution against tyranny, is morally superior. Or the idea that top-down government solutions intrinsically reek of tyranny (read: communism). Or the idea that democratic principles are a result of the Kingdom of God endowing people with rights and providing a natural check on ultimately false earthly domains, and therefore atheists are to be regarded with suspicion as potential tyrants (read: communists).

J.J. Hunsecker said:
They're perfectly competent to make critical decisions about society if the right incentives exist. It's hard to make those incentives exist simultaneously for millions of people at a time, a chunk of which may consider their lives to be quite satisfying and may not want any significant change at all.

We don't live in a magical fairy land where every schmuck attends a screening of a Somalian documentary and decides, "Holy crap, everyone drop what you're doing!"


J.J. Hunsecker said:
What I'm saying is that historical and sociological background trump "brainwashing." The only reason people want to call it "brainwashing" is because they're absolutely convinced they're right. In some cases, they're very clearly right and it will take time to re-adjust the sociological boundaries of a nation and make a change. Others cases, not so much. We have problems because our societal principles and consciousness are running into problems they've never had to deal with before, so they're slowly going to adjust. Brainwashing isn't in the picture unless you believe that all bad situations form non-organically through brainwashing and not from cultural defects that have years of historical precedent. Those people in government are part of the historical milieu. Do you think they go to bed at night thinking THEY'RE the bad guys?


There. That's the easiest, most succinct way to tell you what I mean. If you STILL think that those points translate to " JJ thinks all Americans are stupid and thinks good thing are impossible," then I guess we have nothing to talk about. Sorry.
 
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