@King Creole...the Slovenian cac. Step on in.

ExodusNirvana

Change is inevitable...
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
40,930
Reputation
9,125
Daps
149,881
Reppin
Brooklyn, NY
You're still assuming/hoping that I'm sort of MAGA shythead who loves Donald Trump and hope he succeeds
But you did at one point though

That's why most of HL was coming at your neck in 2016

Your reasoning is kinda irrelevant to us...the fact that you DID is the issue because we all broke down WHY it was such an absurd position to have
 

King Kreole

natural blondie like goku
Joined
Mar 8, 2014
Messages
15,348
Reputation
4,467
Daps
42,754
@King Kreole I apologize if this has already been answered, but what is the unifying theme between Trump's candidacy and Warren's candidacy that drew you in.

Or have you changed your viewpoint in general?
The unifying theme is a hostility to the economic and political status quo and mainlining of a novel and accurate politico-idealogical underpinning. Both candidacies teem with revolutionary potential when it comes to rewriting the structural deficiencies with American society. They both speak the same language of understanding the neoliberal consensus has failed and there needs to be a new political theory to respond to existential threats such as climate change (and all its attendant second-order effects), the healthcare crisis, the economy being rigged in favour of globalized hyper-capital at the expense of the working class, etc. But although they're both playing on the same field, Liz is obviously in an entirely different league than Trump in terms of coherence and moral validity. Whereas Trump's campaign was infused with a sort of dark spirit, Liz is hitting all the notes perfectly and is crafting a vision for the future that doesn't need the coagulant of hatred, and is actually a much more comprehensive and strong response to the socio-political crises of this era. Trump is poorly playing Chopsticks while Liz is playing, like, Beethoven's Piano Sonata No.32. She is the chosen one.
 

intra vires

Glory to Michigan
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
4,051
Reputation
1,465
Daps
14,334
Reppin
The Catholepistemiad
I'll take the timeline with Trump and progressive revolution of AOC/Omar/Tlaib/President Warren over the timeline with Hillary and no progressive revolution. I don't think you're a progressive though, so it makes sense that you think Trump is the worst thing to ever happen to America.

:yeshrug:

Britney-Haynes-Cringe-Big-Brother.gif


The progressive revolution was born out of people's frustration with the Obama administration's failures. Bernie Sanders didn't run as a response to Trump. He ran to move the party to the left of Obama and he succeeded as far as rhetoric goes. Pressley and Omar running in 2018 was a logical step in their political careers, while Tlaib and AOC claim to be inspired by Sanders (Tlaib was a term-limited out in 2014 as well). It's very likely all four of them would be in office in President Hillary's timeline and I could see Katie Porter running too given her career arc and political ties. The Blue Wave obviously doesn't happen, but that was largely driven by flipping red/purple seats to blue so it's irrelevant to your progressive revolution argument.

Now let's lightly touch on reality. There's a good chance that Joe Biden will win the nomination, so we may not get President Warren and the Squad. Next, Trump has appointed over 120 federal judges so good luck passing progressive legislation when the courts will just strike it down. Even if you did get a court to rule favorably the Republican Supreme Court can just strike it down. We haven't touched on foreign policy, the climate crisis, the manufactured border crisis, the erosion of executive agencies, the rolling back of Obama era financial protections, or the increase in hate crimes.

Trump may not be the worst thing to happen to America, but the margin of error we have with some of these issues certainly makes it feel that way...
 

King Kreole

natural blondie like goku
Joined
Mar 8, 2014
Messages
15,348
Reputation
4,467
Daps
42,754
But you did at one point though

That's why most of HL was coming at your neck in 2016

Your reasoning is kinda irrelevant to us...the fact that you DID is the issue because we all broke down WHY it was such an absurd position to have
No, I actually posted over, and over, and over again about how I don't actually give a fukk about Donald Trump and wouldn't care if he dropped dead the day after the election. I hoped he succeeded in the project of overturning the political status quo, not some crypto-fascist MAGA bullshyt. I was talking about Universal Healthcare, reduction of the American imperialist global footprint, closing off the Wall Street to K Street pipeline, reinstituting Glass-Steagall, etc, not some "Respect the flag, love it or leave it" bullshyt.

A certain group of HL posters were constantly coming at my neck because they didn't want to have their Trump hate-fest interrupted by someone pointing out the intolerable current state of affairs. This is the same group of posters who immediately shifted to the most egregious and outlandish of Russia-gate conspiracy theories instead of coming to terms with the truth about this country, so using them as some sort of common sense barometer is a stretch to say the least. A lot of the same dudes who were coming at my neck for criticizing President Obama before it was popular to do so. And I get it! Trump is vile and it's nasty to look at all the bugs scurrying out when you lift up the rock. But basically no one was engaging with the substance of my critiques. You hit it right on the head, y'all didn't care about any reasoning or analysis, it was pretty much all emotional invectives. And again, I get it! I actually regret not responding in a more sympathetic way. I was so focused on the underlying factors and ways in which the American status quo should be indicted and how Trump was a symptom of a broken and harmful system, not the disease itself, that I was too quick to move past the emotional harm he was causing to people.
 

Black Panther

Long Live The King
Supporter
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
Messages
13,844
Reputation
10,288
Daps
71,869
Reppin
Wakanda
Oh, you're one of those "The extreme right AND the extreme left need to calm down" types. This all makes a lot more sense now.

I'm anti-extremism, and I believe the left-right divide is more like a horseshoe that a flat horizontal line.
ExDOlHg.png


The extreme left and extreme right are virtually indistinguishable. Extremism of all kinds disregards diversity of thought, innovation, creativity, and promotes groupthink.
3a9ah5e.png
 
Last edited:

King Kreole

natural blondie like goku
Joined
Mar 8, 2014
Messages
15,348
Reputation
4,467
Daps
42,754


The progressive revolution was born out of people's frustration with the Obama administration's failures. Bernie Sanders didn't run as a response to Trump. He ran to move the party to the left of Obama and he succeeded as far as rhetoric goes. Pressley and Omar running in 2018 was a logical step in their political careers, while Tlaib and AOC claim to be inspired by Sanders (Tlaib was a term-limited out in 2014 as well). It's very likely all four of them would be in office in President Hillary's timeline and I could see Katie Porter running too given her career arc and political ties. The Blue Wave obviously doesn't happen, but that was largely driven by flipping red/purple seats to blue so it's irrelevant to your progressive revolution argument.
First, thanks for taking the time to write out a good rebuttal! Very much appreciated.

This is an interesting take. I don't think I'm arguing that the progressive wave would have never taken place if Hillary was elected, but rather that the shape would have been altered and the timing crucially delayed compared to this timeline.

While I agree that the frustration with the Obama Administration's failures is an animating characteristic of this progressive wave, I don't see how the election of Hillary Clinton (and consequential legitimization of the centrist, neoliberal ruling order) would have been as hospitable an environment for both the practical and ideological movement of the progressives. As you correctly point out, the relative success of the '16 Sanders candidacy proves that people knew something was wrong with the existing order (hell, Occupy was 2011 and Brand New Congress was formed after Sanders conceded, so those are more points of evidence), but it was only in Clinton's loss that people saw just how ill-equipped the current order was to deal with the current crises of our era. I really don't believe Bernie would be as powerful and influential as he is now if he was just the gadfly loser to President Clinton as opposed to the guy who would have beaten Trump. Justice Dems formed in response to Trump's victory. If Hillary had won, do you believe there would have been millions taking to the streets to protest the Obama Administration's failures? I don't see where that groundswell of political energy amongst the masses comes from. Most of them still love Obama! Trump's election was a mass education in how fukked up the system is, and it provided legitimacy to out of the box solutions. I don't think it's a fluke that none of these progressives ran or got elected during the Obama years. He was an anesthetic. The 2014 midterms had a turnout of 36.4%! The progressive movement is one of the masses, it is impossible to have a progressive wave in a sub-40% turnout year.

Let's take it out of the realm of hypotheticals for a moment. Look at the actual actions being taken by Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic Leadership to marginalize the progressive movement right now. The only reason the progressives are able to fight back is because they have a broad, popular mandate and are supported by the people. The idea that they would be just as powerful without the shadow of Donald Trump lurking over the entire proceedings seems a stretch to me. He's an existential phenomenon. Surely the structural issues that people were noticing would have continued, but the movement would be neutered by Hillary telling everyone everything is ok. I believe the progressive wave is inexorable, but I think we would have had to wait another cycle for things to really pop off, and by then the structural volatility would have rendered the fascist response far more palatable to the masses.

Now let's lightly touch on reality. There's a good chance that Joe Biden will win the nomination, so we may not get President Warren and the Squad. Next, Trump has appointed over 120 federal judges so good luck passing progressive legislation when the courts will just strike it down. Even if you did get a court to rule favorably the Republican Supreme Court can just strike it down. We haven't touched on foreign policy, the climate crisis, the manufactured border crisis, the erosion of executive agencies, the rolling back of Obama era financial protections, or the increase in hate crimes.

Trump may not be the worst thing to happen to America, but the margin of error we have with some of these issues certainly makes it feel that way...
If Joe Biden wins the nomination, God help this country. It's above me now.

To your point about Trump and the Judiciary, I've long believed that the courts - in their current state - are hopelessly fukked. Trump has been an absolute beast as remaking the courts in his image, but he didn't invent conservative judicial philosophy, its been there for a while now, stymying progressive legislation. I think your analysis here is correct. It's an institutionalist fantasy to believe the progressive wave can unfold with the courts as they are. Ultimately, they need to be remade one way or another. FDR faced similar intransigence from the Supreme Court, but he understood that power is not a submissive force, it's a dominant force, and threatened to pack the motherfukker. Luckily, we have a nominee this time around who believes the same. It's one of the biggest reasons I'm a Liz booster, she understand that structural changes that need to be made to the American political system and is willing to follow through on them. I have no illusions about the depth and breadth of the rot in this system. The overhaul will need to be dramatic. You can't get there by half-steps or incrementalism. Trump provided the context and just cause for those necessary, dramatic actions.
 

King Kreole

natural blondie like goku
Joined
Mar 8, 2014
Messages
15,348
Reputation
4,467
Daps
42,754
I'm anti-extremism, and I believe the left-right divide is more like a horseshoe that a flat horizontal line. :kanyebp:

The extreme left and extreme right are virtually indistinguishable. Extremism of all kinds disregards diversity of thought, innovation, creativity, and promotes groupthink. :denzelcmonson:
giphy.gif
 

Berniewood Hogan

IT'S BERNIE SANDERS WITH A STEEL CHAIR!
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
17,983
Reputation
6,870
Daps
88,325
Reppin
nWg
I swear I remember this guy being a part of the the Trumpest during the last election, its very confusing that he is supporting Warren now.
Warren's push is the media's attempt to drain Bernie's support. If it works, they'll drop her instantly and jump onto Biden's dikk like that Jamaican dagga thing. The establishment has no intention of nominating Warren.
 

Pressure

#PanthersPosse
Supporter
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Messages
45,745
Reputation
6,880
Daps
145,854
Reppin
CookoutGang
Warren's push is the media's attempt to drain Bernie's support. If it works, they'll drop her instantly and jump onto Biden's dikk like that Jamaican dagga thing. The establishment has no intention of nominating Warren.
:duck:

Warren used to be a republican. She connects to Midwestern voters. :umad:
 
Top