Cacs are liars, do you believe that he exaggerated his report?
I don't disagree with you about research and studying of black folks done by cacs, shyt at times be lies.
Kevin Samuels Discussion Thread
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Cacs are liars, do you believe that he exaggerated his report?
I don't disagree with you about research and studying of black folks done by cacs, shyt at times be lies.
Wait I was told KS or no black man shouldn't say anything about this
Because it bashing our black woman
The last 30 years been very very good for us
Right?
I really would hope the report can be broken down on a level where it can be pick a part and things can be questioned. Just reading it, it will have you like dayum
Everything can't be taken literally without not injecting other factors as mentioned by another poster. But I do remember while reading the report that Ice Cube interview with those 4 black women, having that mindset of entitlement. Special privilege mindset when both the black male and black woman are in last place. Reading that report somewhat took me straight to that interview and triggered something within me.
BGS ibmor spent a yr breaking it down. He pretty much prepped Kev on that talking point
black feminist HATE that report but look at society and what folks debating
Who is BGS Ibmor? Is there a YT clip of someone black maybe breaking it down on a 5th grade level
Yes. His core argument about the black household was his childhood rather than doing legit research, but most importantly his lie is apart of a bunch of lies by white folks to justify mass incarceration.
saturn7
Politics is an EXCHANGE!!!
That Moynihan Report is brutal
(1965) The Moynihan Report: The Negro Family, the Case for National Action • (blackpast.org)
KS needs to break this down even further if so. This is a segment by itself along with Women's Rights Movement.
Our black women chose welfare over their men, men were getting jobs and welfare assistance rose
"But there is one truly great discontinuity in family structure in the United States at the present
time: that between the white world in general and that of the Negro American.
The white family has achieved a high degree of stability and is maintaining that stability.
By contrast, the family structure of lower class Negroes is highly unstable, and in many
urban centers is approaching complete breakdown."
The Reconstruction
With the emancipation of the slaves, the Negro American family began to form in the United States
on a widespread scale. But it did so in an atmosphere markedly different from that which has
produced the white American family.
The Negro was given liberty, but not equality. Life remained hazardous and marginal. Of the
greatest importance, the Negro male, particularly in the South, became an object of intense hostility,
an attitude unquestionably based in some measure of fear.
When Jim Crow made its appearance towards the end of the 19th century, it may be speculated that
it was the Negro male who was most humiliated thereby; the male was more likely to use public
facilities, which rapidly became segregated once the process began, and just as important,
segregation, and the submissiveness it exacts, is surely more destructive to the male than to the
female personality. Keeping the Negro "in his place" can be translated as keeping the Negro male in
his place: the female was not a threat to anyone.
Unquestionably, these events worked against the emergence of a strong father figure. The very
essence of the male animal, from the bantam rooster to the four star general, is to strut. Indeed, in
19th century America, a particular type of exaggerated male boastfulness became almost a national
style. Not for the Negro male. The "sassy ******[sic]" was lynched.
E. Franklin Frazier makes clear that at the time of emancipation Negro women were already
"accustomed to playing the dominant role in family and marriage relations" and that this role
persisted in the decades of rural life that followed.
Rather that may have been his intentions, what can be said about black male employment rising along side of black welfare assistance? The report goes deeper but I want to ask this question, is that a false claim that this happened?
While in another race, employment rises, welfare assistance went down.
I also would challenge too, that white folks now are the largest collectors of welfare assistance today, and their employment is somewhat up, their women are still with their men, marrying them today in this climate while being the largest collectors of welfare assistance.
Even if we are ok with the fact that black women chose welfare assistance while black employment rose, Kudos, we still should have had marriages still at 80% or close to that number but it dropped, and continued to drop. The report may have been written with cruel intent or reported in bad faith, but the reality of what happened within our community, the black man and black woman, is that the marriage rate started to decline and it started to happen around the time when all of this was happening in the 1960s. Black male employment was up and black welfare being up also.
What was the reason of the marriage decline?, regardless of who wrote the report, let's pretend that the report was not written, Would black marriages still be at a 80% rate?
By the report being written by a black man or woman, would that change anything?
Sounds like a bell hooks book. No citations.
saturn7
Politics is an EXCHANGE!!!
Chapter IV
That the Negro American has survived at all is extraordinary — a lesser people might simply have
died out, as indeed others have. That the Negro community has not only survived, but in this
political generation has entered national affairs as a moderate, humane, and constructive national
force is the highest testament to the healing powers of the democratic ideal and the creative vitality
of the Negro people.
But it may not be supposed that the Negro American community has not paid a fearful price for the
incredible mistreatment to which it has been subjected over the past three centuries.
In essence, the Negro community has been forced into a matriarchal structure which, because it is
to out of line with the rest of the American society, seriously retards the progress of the group as a
whole, and imposes a crushing burden on the Negro male and, in consequence, on a great many
Negro women as well.
There is, presumably, no special reason why a society in which males are dominant in family
relationships is to be preferred to a matriarchal arrangement. However, it is clearly a disadvantage
for a minority group to be operating on one principle, while the great majority of the population,
and the one with the most advantages to begin with, is operating on another. This is the present
situation of the Negro. Ours is a society which presumes male leadership in private and public
affairs. The arrangements of society facilitate such leadership and reward it. A subculture, such as
that of the Negro American, in which this is not the pattern, is placed at a distinct disadvantage.
Here an earlier word of caution should be repeated. These is much evidence that a considerable
number of Negro families have managed to break out of the tangle of pathology and to establish
themselves as stable, effective units, living according to patterns of American society in general. E.
Franklin Frazier has suggested that the middle-class Negro American family is, if anything, more
patriarchal and protective of its children than the general run of such families.27 Given equal
opportunities, the children of these families will perform as well or better than their white peers.
They need no help from anyone, and ask none.
While this phenomenon is not easily measured, one index is that middle class Negroes have even
fewer children than middle class whites, indicating a desire to conserve the advances they have
made and to insure that their children do as well or better.
Moreover, because of housing segregation it is immensely difficult for the stable half to escape from the cultural
influences of the unstable one. The children of middle class Negroes often as not must grow up in,
or next to the slums, an experience almost unknown to white middle class children. They are
therefore constantly exposed to the pathology of the disturbed group and constantly in danger of
being drawn into it. It is for this reason that the propositions put forth in this study may be thought
of as having a more or less general application.
That the Negro American has survived at all is extraordinary — a lesser people might simply have
died out, as indeed others have. That the Negro community has not only survived, but in this
political generation has entered national affairs as a moderate, humane, and constructive national
force is the highest testament to the healing powers of the democratic ideal and the creative vitality
of the Negro people.
But it may not be supposed that the Negro American community has not paid a fearful price for the
incredible mistreatment to which it has been subjected over the past three centuries.
In essence, the Negro community has been forced into a matriarchal structure which, because it is
to out of line with the rest of the American society, seriously retards the progress of the group as a
whole, and imposes a crushing burden on the Negro male and, in consequence, on a great many
Negro women as well.
There is, presumably, no special reason why a society in which males are dominant in family
relationships is to be preferred to a matriarchal arrangement. However, it is clearly a disadvantage
for a minority group to be operating on one principle, while the great majority of the population,
and the one with the most advantages to begin with, is operating on another. This is the present
situation of the Negro. Ours is a society which presumes male leadership in private and public
affairs. The arrangements of society facilitate such leadership and reward it. A subculture, such as
that of the Negro American, in which this is not the pattern, is placed at a distinct disadvantage.
Here an earlier word of caution should be repeated. These is much evidence that a considerable
number of Negro families have managed to break out of the tangle of pathology and to establish
themselves as stable, effective units, living according to patterns of American society in general. E.
Franklin Frazier has suggested that the middle-class Negro American family is, if anything, more
patriarchal and protective of its children than the general run of such families.27 Given equal
opportunities, the children of these families will perform as well or better than their white peers.
They need no help from anyone, and ask none.
While this phenomenon is not easily measured, one index is that middle class Negroes have even
fewer children than middle class whites, indicating a desire to conserve the advances they have
made and to insure that their children do as well or better.
Moreover, because of housing segregation it is immensely difficult for the stable half to escape from the cultural
influences of the unstable one. The children of middle class Negroes often as not must grow up in,
or next to the slums, an experience almost unknown to white middle class children. They are
therefore constantly exposed to the pathology of the disturbed group and constantly in danger of
being drawn into it. It is for this reason that the propositions put forth in this study may be thought
of as having a more or less general application.
Dap+Rep.
Some of these things I don’t know. The report was introduced to me in a community strategies course about mass incarceration and its effects in my community.
However, the 1960s brought a surge of black folks being full citizens, as well as being included in mainstream data/stats. I would be nice to have a black historical statistician to revisit all of these numbers because some of these white sociologists became megaphones to white supremacy rather than attempting to remain neutral.
The dude pretty much bit the work of E Franklin Fraizier. You will be hard pressed to find a black woman that won't bash the report because it puts the spotlight on them lol (just look at the response you get, yet women have no problem using white stats to bash black men).
All I gotta say is look at the report, and then look at Modern Black society in America.
There isn't even anything to debate.
saturn7
Politics is an EXCHANGE!!!
Even back then there was a concern about Black women doing much better in academic settings than Black men.
Matriarchy
A fundamental fact of Negro American family life is the often reversed roles of husband and wife.
Robert O. Blood, Jr. and Donald M. Wolfe, in a study of Detroit families, note that "Negro husbands
have unusually low power," and while this is characteristic of all low income families, the pattern
pervades the Negro social structure: "the cumulative result of discrimination in jobs..., the
segregated housing, and the poor schooling of Negro men." In 44 percent of the Negro families
studied, the wife was dominant, as against 20 percent of white wives. "Whereas the majority of
white families are equalitarian, the largest percentage of Negro families are dominated by the
wife."
The matriarchal pattern of so many Negro families reinforces itself over the generations. This
process begins with education. Although the gap appears to be closing at the moment, for a long while, Negro females were better educated than Negro males, and this remains true today for the Negro population as a whole.
The difference in educational attainment between nonwhite men and women in the labor force is even greater; men lag 1.1 years behind women.
Whitney Young:
"Historically, in the matriarchal Negro society, mothers made sure that if one of their children had a chance for higher education the daughter was the one to pursue it."
"The effect on family functioning and role performance of this historical experience [economic
deprivation] is what you might predict. Both as a husband and as a father the Negro male is made to feel inadequate, not because he is unlovable or unaffectionate, lacks intelligence or even a gray flannel suit. But in a society that measures a man by the size of his pay check, he doesn't stand very tall in a comparison with his white counterpart. To this situation he may react with withdrawal, bitterness toward society, aggression both within the family and racial group, self-hatred, or crime. Or he may escape through a number of avenues that help him to lose himself in fantasy or to compensate for his low status through a variety of exploits."
Thomas Pettigrew:
"The Negro wife in this situation can easily become disgusted with her financially dependent
husband, and her rejection of him further alienates the male from family life. Embittered by their
experiences with men, many Negro mothers often act to perpetuate the mother centered pattern by taking a greater interest in their daughters than their sons."
Dorothy Height:
"If the Negro woman has a major underlying concern, it is the status of the Negro man and his
position in the community and his need for feeling himself an important person, free and able to
make his contribution in the whole society in order that he may strengthen his home."
Duncan M. MacIntyre:
"The Negro illegitimacy rate always has been high — about eight times the white rate in 1940 and somewhat higher today even though the white illegitimacy rate also is climbing. The Negro
statistics are symtomatic [sic] of some old socioeconomic problems, not the least of which are under employment among Negro men and compensating higher labor force propensity among Negro women. Both operate to enlarge the mother's role, undercutting the status of the male and making many Negro families essentially matriarchal. The Negro man's uncertain employment prospects, matriarchy, and the high cost of divorces combine to encourage desertion (the poor man's divorce), increases the number of couples not married, and thereby also increases the Negro
illegitimacy rate. In the meantime, higher Negro birth rates are increasing the nonwhite population, while migration into cities like Detroit, New York, Philadelphia, and Washington, D.C. is making the public assistance rolls in such cities heavily, even predominantly, Negro."
Matriarchy
A fundamental fact of Negro American family life is the often reversed roles of husband and wife.
Robert O. Blood, Jr. and Donald M. Wolfe, in a study of Detroit families, note that "Negro husbands
have unusually low power," and while this is characteristic of all low income families, the pattern
pervades the Negro social structure: "the cumulative result of discrimination in jobs..., the
segregated housing, and the poor schooling of Negro men." In 44 percent of the Negro families
studied, the wife was dominant, as against 20 percent of white wives. "Whereas the majority of
white families are equalitarian, the largest percentage of Negro families are dominated by the
wife."
The matriarchal pattern of so many Negro families reinforces itself over the generations. This
process begins with education. Although the gap appears to be closing at the moment, for a long while, Negro females were better educated than Negro males, and this remains true today for the Negro population as a whole.
The difference in educational attainment between nonwhite men and women in the labor force is even greater; men lag 1.1 years behind women.
Whitney Young:
"Historically, in the matriarchal Negro society, mothers made sure that if one of their children had a chance for higher education the daughter was the one to pursue it."
"The effect on family functioning and role performance of this historical experience [economic
deprivation] is what you might predict. Both as a husband and as a father the Negro male is made to feel inadequate, not because he is unlovable or unaffectionate, lacks intelligence or even a gray flannel suit. But in a society that measures a man by the size of his pay check, he doesn't stand very tall in a comparison with his white counterpart. To this situation he may react with withdrawal, bitterness toward society, aggression both within the family and racial group, self-hatred, or crime. Or he may escape through a number of avenues that help him to lose himself in fantasy or to compensate for his low status through a variety of exploits."
Thomas Pettigrew:
"The Negro wife in this situation can easily become disgusted with her financially dependent
husband, and her rejection of him further alienates the male from family life. Embittered by their
experiences with men, many Negro mothers often act to perpetuate the mother centered pattern by taking a greater interest in their daughters than their sons."
Dorothy Height:
"If the Negro woman has a major underlying concern, it is the status of the Negro man and his
position in the community and his need for feeling himself an important person, free and able to
make his contribution in the whole society in order that he may strengthen his home."
Duncan M. MacIntyre:
"The Negro illegitimacy rate always has been high — about eight times the white rate in 1940 and somewhat higher today even though the white illegitimacy rate also is climbing. The Negro
statistics are symtomatic [sic] of some old socioeconomic problems, not the least of which are under employment among Negro men and compensating higher labor force propensity among Negro women. Both operate to enlarge the mother's role, undercutting the status of the male and making many Negro families essentially matriarchal. The Negro man's uncertain employment prospects, matriarchy, and the high cost of divorces combine to encourage desertion (the poor man's divorce), increases the number of couples not married, and thereby also increases the Negro
illegitimacy rate. In the meantime, higher Negro birth rates are increasing the nonwhite population, while migration into cities like Detroit, New York, Philadelphia, and Washington, D.C. is making the public assistance rolls in such cities heavily, even predominantly, Negro."
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@Kiyoshi-Dono you looking to summon your nemesis with all these postings breh. Tryna get into a dissertation battle.
KS has to go further into this statement he made to the older woman and her mama, he said "black boys were forced to be child-husbands" black boys were forced to grow up fast. I've heard that all of my life from my peers, young boys 13 being the head of the house, young daughters at 14-15 having to take care of their siblings.
Their childhood being stripped from them, Sharrzard Ali spoke about this in her book, how the mother would have the older sibling baby-sitting her siblings which stripped away her own childhood in a sense. I believe KS need to unpack this more, go a bit more deeper about this climate, which became an on-going cycle in our community growing up, Why? KS spoke on how the women made their selections with the men that they chose to have babies with, their selection of men caused this climate to be an on-going cycle within our community which is still happening today.
Boys 14-17 being the head of the house, having to get a job or "hustle" to take care of their younger sibling or hell their own mama because the mama laid down with a man that she selected or a man that she did not marry.
Who is the cause of this dynamic? Her decision is crippling the youth. Yes kids can still go astray in a 2 parent household, but how likely is it for them to go astray in a single parent household? especially a boy, with siblings.
Again, I compare this cycle to the era before 1960s when this was rarely the case with kids and the black household, kids rarely had to take care of their younger siblings, families were structured, did kids have to work when they became a certain age, young boys, yes, maybe do some share cropping, farming, etc but that was for a different reason, not to so call survive or be a parent to their siblings. I don't recall my grandfather saying that he was a 'parent' to his younger siblings at the age of 14, I don't recall my grand parents saying that they had to go 'hustle' or be a parent to their younger siblings to keep food on the table etc. They worked to help out the family, mom & dad or to get ready to establish their own
The dynamics are night and day Before 1960s and After in my opinion Children being parents to their younger siblings after 1960s vs The Children before 1960s
I ask the question, by choosing welfare, without the man being in the house, how big of a part that it play on the children?
When did the term "key baby" start? Where the kids at school would have the house key around their necks. Was it around the 1960s?
saturn7
Politics is an EXCHANGE!!!
on a "lighter" note.
BLACK MEN ARE THE MOST BODY POSITIVE! Agree or disagree?
https://www.youtube.com/post/Ugkx85S6bFtc4DxuHXMx-8G4MG-Gga7Vg14F
BLACK MEN ARE THE MOST BODY POSITIVE! Agree or disagree?
https://www.youtube.com/post/Ugkx85S6bFtc4DxuHXMx-8G4MG-Gga7Vg14F
Very True.
I will look at the other report. Honestly this needs to be talked again, just because the cycle is still happening.
If welfare assistance was to go away, will our women marry the men that they have babies for? I remember a chick, many, bragging about being on assistance smh. The shyt is so deep and it is killing our community and all we have to do is marry before you carry or just marry the man that you had a baby with.