Kendrick Lamar - Mr. Morale & The Big Steppers (Discussion Thread)

[Tetris v2.0]

What do you mean by "looked at"? Does that include evaluation?

I find that the only true objectivity when it comes to art is very limited, since it's meaningless for evaluating art and comparing pieces, but this is always what it's used for.

You can objectively gauge how difficult a certain shot is to pull off or a certain multi rhyme scheme. Now it may not hit for you subjectively, but there is an objective component to all artistic works... What tools were used, how much time when into it, how common or uncommon the themes or subject matter is etc. Successful ambition and risk taking tends to score better with critics as we're often looking for the next "new" thing and want to reward creativity

I agree that too much comparison takes away from the conversation, but you don't want to get caught comparing the craft of a Dr Dre album to a mixtape recorded in a day in a bedroom. You might like one or the other for your own taste, but there are many objective factors that differentiate the two

 

[Shadow King]

There can be widely accepted opinions on artists without objectivity about art being a thing though. You just need a collection of subjective opinions and check for a majority.

If it's widely accepted then it's no longer subjective. Something speaking to universally or near-universally everyone means the quality displayed or metric achieved isn't deniable. What the artist did can't be minimized, your ability to relate to it is subjective. This especially the case of you know what it takes to do it.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

You can objectively gauge how difficult a certain shot is to pull off or a certain multi rhyme scheme. Now it may not hit for you subjectively, but there is an objective component to all artistic works... What tools were used, how much time when into it, how common or uncommon the themes or subject matter is etc. Successful ambition and risk taking tends to score better with critics as we're often looking for the next "new" thing and want to reward creativity

I agree that too much comparison takes away from the conversation, but you don't want to get caught comparing the craft of a Dr Dre album to a mixtape recorded in a day in a bedroom. You might like one or the other for your own taste, but there are many objective factors that differentiate the two

Even gauging difficulty objectively seems complicated to me, but I agree. There definitely are objective factors.

I just don't think they help attributing value to a work of art. The "shot" pulled might be more difficult but it still counts for the same number of points. Does the difficulty of the rhyme schemes make the work better? Risks were taken, the project is ambitious, but is "new" intrinsically better?

I don't see a way to objectively settle these questions.

Dr Dre might objectively have more hours, engineers, and experience behind his album, but that doesn't say anything about its relative value compared to the 1-day mixtape, for the same reason a cheap drum machine that sounded weird and was worthless to music stars in the 80s, in the hands of young Afrika Bambaataa, transformed music to this day.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

If it's widely accepted then it's no longer subjective. Something speaking to universally or near-universally everyone means the quality displayed or metric achieved isn't deniable. What the artist did can't be minimized, your ability to relate to it is subjective. This especially the case of you know what it takes to do it.

Why does it being widely accepted makes it no longer subjective? If it was accepted by the majority of hip hop listeners back in 2017 that Lil Pump was the best artist out there, would that opinion be objective? Imo, the number of people is irrelevant.

I agree that artists and opinions on them can't be minimized and denied (whether the it's widely accepted or not) but I think it's the case because those perspectives are subjective.

 

[Tetris v2.0]

Even gauging difficulty objectively seems complicated to me, but I agree. There definitely are objective factors.

I just don't think they help attributing value to a work of art. The "shot" pulled might be more difficult but it still counts for the same number of points. Does the difficulty of the rhyme schemes make the work better? Risks were taken, the project is ambitious, but is "new" intrinsically better?

I don't see a way to objectively settle these questions.

Dr Dre might objectively have more hours, engineers, and experience behind his album, but that doesn't say anything about its relative value compared to the 1-day mixtape, for the same reason a cheap drum machine that sounded weird and was worthless to music stars in the 80s, in the hands of young Afrika Bambaataa, transformed music to this day.

I meant "shot" in the camera/film sense but I hear you otherwise. We might agree to disagree on there being some objective criteria that we judge art on with the potential to add value to it, but I do think that there is an elitist and gatekeepery thing that academic types tend to do with genres like rap - they look at certain albums being classic for the sake of being classic, like it's peer-reviewed or some shyt and dismiss different sounds that are "unconfirmed" to them. This is still art not science

 

[Shadow King]

Why does it being widely accepted makes it no longer subjective? If it was accepted by the majority of hip hop listeners back in 2017 that Lil Pump was the best artist out there, would that opinion be objective? Imo, the number of people is irrelevant.

I agree that artists and opinions on them can't be minimized and denied (whether the it's widely accepted or not) but I think it's the case because those perspectives are subjective.

Lil Pump wasn't accepted as the best rapper in 2017 though. If he were the best or near he'd be in the conversation and you couldn't deny his seat in said conversation. The fact that people can objectively say "yeah he has his lane but that's not what the best rap artist sounds like" proves the point.

Subjectivity does not lend to undeniability. That makes zero sense.

 

[Jean toomer]

Crown is so slept on


If you don't like this album then it just isn't for you. He can't please everybody

Crown is so slept on


If you don't like this album then it just isn't for you. He can't please everybody

My favorite track. Ducal Timothy is an acquired taste but highly slept.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Lil Pump wasn't accepted as the best rapper in 2017 though. If he were the best or near he'd be in the conversation and you couldn't deny his seat in said conversation. The fact that people can objectively say "yeah he has his lane but that's not what the best rap artist sounds like" proves the point.

Subjectivity does not lend to undeniability. That makes zero sense.

What I'm saying is that there is no link between the wide acceptance of an opinion on art and objectivity, since objectivity is based on facts and not personal feelings and thoughts. Whether a lot of people have the same opinion doesn't change the fact that it's a subjective one.

All polls on the subject show that people think Eminem is the greatest rapper of all time. Is that an objective fact? It's a widely accepted opinion.

Accepting the subjective character of all evaluations of art, however, does give them undeniability since they are inherently true. You can't deny the subjective feeling a person has when they listen to Eminem, nor can you deny their opinion that to them, Eminem is the best rapper ever.. But you can deny this feeling being objective, whether it's held by an important number of people or not.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

I meant "shot" in the camera/film sense but I hear you otherwise. We might agree to disagree on there being some objective criteria that we judge art on with the potential to add value to it, but I do think that there is an elitist and gatekeepery thing that academic types tend to do with genres like rap - they look at certain albums being classic for the sake of being classic, like it's peer-reviewed or some shyt and dismiss different sounds that are "unconfirmed" to them. This is still art not science

Got you! Fair enough

 

[Shadow King]

What I'm saying is that there is no link between the wide acceptance of an opinion on art and objectivity, since objectivity is based on facts and not personal feelings and thoughts. Whether a lot of people have the same opinion doesn't change the fact that it's a subjective one.

All polls on the subject show that people think Eminem is the greatest rapper of all time. Is that an objective fact? It's a widely accepted opinion.

Accepting the subjective character of all evaluations of art, however, does give them undeniability since they are inherently true. You can't deny the subjective feeling a person has when they listen to Eminem, nor can you deny their opinion that to them, Eminem is the best rapper ever.. But you can deny this feeling being objective, whether it's held by an important number of people or not.

There is a link between objectivity and wide acceptance. This applies to more than just music. Humans know what is good vs bad, right vs wrong, easy vs difficult, high vs low.

Eminem is in the conversation, because by all or most objective criteria, he is or was great. After a certain point your "subjective feelings = undeniability" as the volume of identical feelings add up becomes my point. It's become a generality instead of "maybe it's just me, but..."

When someone tries to tell you that Soulja Boy is greater than Jay Z and the GOAT, you know not to take that seriously because you know the metrics of great MC and great career, not because you "felt" something for 3 minutes when a song came on.

 

[The Truest]

Still listening to this album all the way through. im not a K dot Minaj stan at all, but this shyt is great and a blassic.

 

[Waldo Geraldo Faldo]

Mr Morale be jamming.

Floating on em
Floating on em
Floating on em

 

[The Truest]

Mr Morale be jamming.

Floating on em
Floating on em
Floating on em

Whats playing right now for me

 

[breakfuss]

Not sure if yall saw thread about the spotify documentary

Link:

Looks like it's about his trip to Ghana.

 

[Ziggiy]

Spotify produced documentary coming next week

Spotify Announces Kendrick Lamar Mini-Doc On His Ghana Trip