John Stockton was a lowkey Thug on the Basketball Court

[Dem313wayz]

Your argument that Kobe was a top-5 player in 2000 is one game where he hit 2 jump shots when they already had the lead?

That's the series he averaged 15-5-4 on 37% shooting, not really the best example for claiming that Kobe needed to be a top-5 player for the Lakers to start winning.


Kobe wasn't even a top-2 player in that particular game (Shaq had 36 and 21, while Reggie put up 35 on just 19 shots), he just came through when it counted that one time.

Kobe stats are skewed in that series.

He turned the ankle early in game 2 and missed game 3.

 

[Damnshow]

The Malone-Stockton Jazz had complete stability for a decade together from 1985-1995, and during that time they were a horrible 6-10 in playoff series. They lost in the 1st round 6 times, only made the WCF twice, and didn't make the Finals once in their first decade together.

They weren't even losing to good seeds for the most part. They lost to the 4-seed Mavs in the first round '86, got upset by the 5-seed Warriors in the first round '87, got upset swept by the 7-seed Warriors in the first round '89, got upset by 5-seed Mavs in the first round '90, lost to 3-seed Sonics in the first round '93, upset by 6-seed Rockets in the first round '95, even got taken to Game 7 after blowing a 3-0 lead against the 8-seed Nuggets in '94.



That's embarassing for what was a LOADED team. How you have two HOFers who are supposedly among the best-ever at their positions with a HOF coach and a solid supporting cast and yet you're losing in the first round every year? Karl Malone was already 22 and Stockton was 23 when they came together, they joined a squad coming off a WCSF appearance that had Adrian Dantley, Thurl Bailey, Rickey Green, and Mark Eaton. Adrian Dantley left after a year, but that team always had very good swingmen (first Thurl Bailey and Darrell Griffith, then Jeff Malone, then Jeff Hornacek) along with a DPOY at center in Mark Eaton and a deep bench, plus Jerry Sloan came in 1989 and they had coaching consistency from a HOF coach for a decade. And all they did was LOSE.


Jazz finally made the Finals in 1997, but that wasn't because they got better after a decade of fukking up in the playoffs, it was because everyone else aged out and the Western Conference got weak as hell for a couple years. Once Duncan came in and Kobe grew up with Phil it was all over for them again.

This

For the 90s standard, the Jazz had a great roster every year and they didn't win shyt until the west got weaker. Facts.

Blazers, Sonics and Rockets would beat them in the playoffs constantly. Only when Houston Drexler got way past his prime and Rockets disrupted their chemistry by signing Barkley is when Jazz finally found success in western conference.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

This

For the 90s standard, the Jazz had a great roster every year and they didn't win shyt until the west got weaker. Facts.

Blazers, Sonics and Rockets would beat them in the playoffs constantly. Only when Houston Drexler got way past his prime and Rockets disrupted their chemistry by signing Barkley is when Jazz finally found success in western conference.

Even before the Blazers/Sonics/Rockets, they couldn't get past the freaking Warriors or the pre-Barkley Suns.

1989, they had:

HOF coach Jerry Sloan

Karl Malone: 3rd in MVP voting, 1st-team All-NBA, All-Star
John Stockton: 7th in MVP voting, 2nd-team All-NBA, All-Star
Mark Eaton: 13th in MVP voting, Defensive Player of the Year, All-Star
Thurl Bailey: Averaged 20ppg on 48% shooting
Darrell Griffith: Averaged 14ppg on 45% shooting
Bob Hansen: 6'6" guard shooting 35% from 3pt


That squad got SWEPT in the 1st-round by a 7-seed Warriors team (43-39) with the following starting lineup:

Winston Garland
Mitch Richmond (just 23yo)
Chris Mullin
Rod Higgins
Larry Smith


Very next year, the Jazz got upset in the 1st round again by a 5-seed, the KJ-Chambers Suns (a team whose starting frontcourt was Mark West and Kurt Rambis). They also had a year where they got beat by a 5-seed Warriors squad led by Sleepy Floyd and Joe Barry Carroll.


Malone-Stockton Jazz were always disappointing as fukk in the playoffs until expansion era and aging left no one in the West to beat them.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Kobe stats are skewed in that series.

He turned the ankle early in game 2 and missed game 3.

Missing Game 3 doesn't impact his per-game stats breh.



Even before the ankle turn, Lakers won Game 1 by 17 with Kobe putting up just 14-3-5 on 6-13 shooting.

Game 2, Kobe had just 2 points on 1-3 shooting and game was tied after the 1st quarter when Kobe went out.....Lakers won by 7 anyway with Harper and Rice putting up 21 each on great shooting (Harper shot 8-12, Rice shot 5-6 from three).

Game 5, Kobe had just 8 points on 4-20 shooting.

Game 6, Kobe had 26 points on 8-27 shooting. Going into the 4th quarter the Lakers were down by 5, Kobe shot just 1-7 in the 4th but the Lakers came from behind anyway and outscored the Pacers 37-27 behind 13 points by Shaq (6-6 shooting) and 8 by Horry (3-4 shooting with two threes)


Point being, Kobe wasn't playing anywhere even close to a "top-5 in the league" player, and the Lakers didn't need him to. Phil made a huge difference in how that squad looked when it came to playoff basketball.

 

[NYC Rebel]

This

For the 90s standard, the Jazz had a great roster every year and they didn't win shyt until the west got weaker. Facts.

Blazers, Sonics and Rockets would beat them in the playoffs constantly. Only when Houston Drexler got way past his prime and Rockets disrupted their chemistry by signing Barkley is when Jazz finally found success in western conference.

Outside of the Bulls, 90s NBA teams were of lower quality compared to the 80s. Heads can get mad. I said this during the 90s.

Even before the Blazers/Sonics/Rockets, they couldn't get past the freaking Warriors or the pre-Barkley Suns.

1989, they had:

HOF coach Jerry Sloan

Karl Malone: 3rd in MVP voting, 1st-team All-NBA, All-Star
John Stockton: 7th in MVP voting, 2nd-team All-NBA, All-Star
Mark Eaton: 13th in MVP voting, Defensive Player of the Year, All-Star
Thurl Bailey: Averaged 20ppg on 48% shooting
Darrell Griffith: Averaged 14ppg on 45% shooting
Bob Hansen: 6'6" guard shooting 35% from 3pt


That squad got SWEPT in the 1st-round by a 7-seed Warriors team (43-39) with the following starting lineup:

Winston Garland
Mitch Richmond (just 23yo)
Chris Mullin
Rod Higgins
Larry Smith


Very next year, they got upset in the 1st round again by a 5-seed, the KJ-Chambers Suns. They also had a year where they got beat by a 5-seed Warriors squad led by Sleepy Floyd and Joe Barry Carroll.


Malone-Stockton Jazz were always disappointing as fukk in the playoffs until expansion era and aging left no one in the West to beat them.

They also had Jeff Malone on that squad too, who was no slouch.

The 90s NBA being the 90s NBA gave those underachievers a life line

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Outside of the Bulls, 90s NBA teams were of lower quality compared to the 80s. Heads can get mad. I said this during the 90s.

They also had Jeff Malone on that squad too, who was no slouch.

The 90s NBA being the 90s NBA gave those underachievers a life line

Jeff Malone came in '91, so that year they had Jeff Malone AND Thurl Bailey as scoring options in addition to Stockton/Malone. Still couldn't get past the Blazers or the Sonics. In 1994 they replaced Jeff Malone with Jeff Hornacek and added an aging Chambers too.....still were food for the Rockets and Sonics until 1997 when the Rockets just got old.

 

[Damnshow]

Even before the Blazers/Sonics/Rockets, they couldn't get past the freaking Warriors or the pre-Barkley Suns.

1989, they had:

HOF coach Jerry Sloan

Karl Malone: 3rd in MVP voting, 1st-team All-NBA, All-Star
John Stockton: 7th in MVP voting, 2nd-team All-NBA, All-Star
Mark Eaton: 13th in MVP voting, Defensive Player of the Year, All-Star
Thurl Bailey: Averaged 20ppg on 48% shooting
Darrell Griffith: Averaged 14ppg on 45% shooting
Bob Hansen: 6'6" guard shooting 35% from 3pt


That squad got SWEPT in the 1st-round by a 7-seed Warriors team (43-39) with the following starting lineup:

Winston Garland
Mitch Richmond (just 23yo)
Chris Mullin
Rod Higgins
Larry Smith


Very next year, the Jazz got upset in the 1st round again by a 5-seed, the KJ-Chambers Suns (a team whose starting frontcourt was Mark West and Kurt Rambis). They also had a year where they got beat by a 5-seed Warriors squad led by Sleepy Floyd and Joe Barry Carroll.


Malone-Stockton Jazz were always disappointing as fukk in the playoffs until expansion era and aging left no one in the West to beat them.

I didn't mention the 80s because Jazz weren't getting past the Lakers. But like you said they were so trash in the playoffs other teams did their job.

90s no longer saw a true western conference super team like the Lakers and Jazz still couldn't reach the finals. Malone and Stockton were regular season players.

 

[Damnshow]

Outside of the Bulls, 90s NBA teams were of lower quality compared to the 80s. Heads can get mad. I said this during the 90s.

They also had Jeff Malone on that squad too, who was no slouch.

The 90s NBA being the 90s NBA gave those underachievers a life line

88 and 89 expansion teams. You add four teams into the mix but talent pool stays the same, it was obvious the 90s would have less loaded teams and more of just average squads. NBA did not trust europeans that much yet, you had to be really good Euro for them to give you some minutes. So yeah a lot of trash as a 10-12th man on the bench.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

I didn't mention the 80s because Jazz weren't getting past the Lakers. But like you said they were so trash in the playoffs other teams did their job.

Funny thing is, if Malone and Stockton were really "all-time greats" like they're made out to be, then they should have been able to compete with the Lakers too, at least on paper.

By 1989 Kareem was completely washed, whereas Eaton was the DPOY and All-Star. Malone was 3rd in MVP voting and considered a much more dominant player than Worthy. Stockton wasn't as good as Magic, but if he's supposed to be "one of the greatest point guards ever", then he should at least be able to keep his team competitive. Byron Scott was small so Stockton could cover him and didn't need to worry about covering Magic.

Lakers vs Jazz, December 25, 1988 | Basketball-Reference.com

LAL (87) vs UTA (101). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the Lakers vs Jazz, December 25, 1988.

www.basketball-reference.com

Lakers vs Jazz, February 22, 1989 | Basketball-Reference.com

LAL (79) vs UTA (105). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the Lakers vs Jazz, February 22, 1989.

www.basketball-reference.com

Jazz vs Lakers, April 7, 1989 | Basketball-Reference.com

UTA (99) vs LAL (97). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the Jazz vs Lakers, April 7, 1989.

www.basketball-reference.com

Jazz actually won the season series with the Lakers 3-1 that year, with both of the home wins in blowouts. But when it came to the playoffs, Jazz were getting swept in the first round while the Lakers were making another Finals.

 

[Rice N Beans]

That's embarassing for what was a LOADED team. How you have two HOFers who are supposedly among the best-ever at their positions with a HOF coach and a solid supporting cast and yet you're losing in the first round every year?

Sloan and his previous superior were kind of shackled to their system. They had that same setup running with the coach before Sloan. Once you get the rhythm of the Stockton-Malone combo it was sort of over for the Jazz, especially since in the 'offs you are continuously playing them.

Stockton could shoot pretty efficiently, but never really had many runs doing that. It isn't necessarily his problem, he just listened to the coaches that wanted passing above anything else. Would have been better to have him be a dual-threat to compliment Malone, but again, the system.

It's been said he benefited lopsidedly being with Malone. Whereas I believe he benefited greatly in having a money shooter in Malone, I also think he lost a bit being that devoted to the pass-heavy system.

 

[Slaimon Khan Shah]

CARMELO KYAM ANTHONY = DENVER NUGGETS

SLAIMON KHAN SHAH = UTAH JAZZ

 

[eastside313]

Dirty player who used to get a massively favorable whistle in Utah. I remember how he'd use his off-hand while dribbling to hook the defensive player's arm and then pretend the defender was holding him to draw a cheap foul. Those hands were active as hell on both ends of the court, always pulling on jerseys and tugging at elbows when the refs weren't looking to gain a little advantage.

don’t forget all them fake assists he used to get too

 

[Boonapalist]

Meh, beating the '98 Lakers with Eddie Jones as their #2 and Del Harris as their coach doesn't say much when 2nd-year Duncan swept an even better Lakers squad the next year in '99.

And getting Phil Jackson as coach was a bigger deal than you're making it out to be. Kobe wasn't a top-5 player in 2000 and was only a step better than he'd been in 1999, but the Lakers looked far better in the playoffs than they'd looked in '98 or '99.

The Lakers were not better in 99. Not by record, SRS, offense, defense, roster or coaching. There’s nothing that justifies them being better besides Kobe improving. And that really wasn’t shyt because Rambis was babying him and enabling his worst traits.

Now I do agree getting Phil was a big deal. I’d say he was the second biggest factor in the 2000 title behind Shaq. Without Phil there was no structure on offense and defense and Kobe would’ve kept going into business for himself.

 

[Family Lives Matter]

He dirty like his peado team mate fukk em

 

[FAH1223]

Funny thing is, if Malone and Stockton were really "all-time greats" like they're made out to be, then they should have been able to compete with the Lakers too, at least on paper.

By 1989 Kareem was completely washed, whereas Eaton was the DPOY and All-Star. Malone was 3rd in MVP voting and considered a much more dominant player than Worthy. Stockton wasn't as good as Magic, but if he's supposed to be "one of the greatest point guards ever", then he should at least be able to keep his team competitive. Byron Scott was small so Stockton could cover him and didn't need to worry about covering Magic.

Lakers vs Jazz, December 25, 1988 | Basketball-Reference.com

LAL (87) vs UTA (101). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the Lakers vs Jazz, December 25, 1988.

www.basketball-reference.com

Lakers vs Jazz, February 22, 1989 | Basketball-Reference.com

LAL (79) vs UTA (105). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the Lakers vs Jazz, February 22, 1989.

www.basketball-reference.com

Jazz vs Lakers, April 7, 1989 | Basketball-Reference.com

UTA (99) vs LAL (97). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the Jazz vs Lakers, April 7, 1989.

www.basketball-reference.com

Jazz actually won the season series with the Lakers 3-1 that year, with both of the home wins in blowouts. But when it came to the playoffs, Jazz were getting swept in the first round while the Lakers were making another Finals.

Jazz actually forced LAL to a 7th game in 1988