Essential Japanese Wrestling Discussion/News

Scottie Drippin

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Nah. He wins it in 07'-08' and NOAH's downfall is even faster.

I don't buy it. NOAH could've been progressive and started the wheels turning as far as change in the industry by having KENTA and Maru, their two most over home brewed products, pick off the old guard (who were properly fukking old) and started a transition from the veteran love fest that is puro (specifically the Kings Road style they imploy) to something which more effectively reflected the era.

Instead they held on forever, just waiting for some heavyweights who they didn't fukking have aside from Morishima and Go (who they completely fukked up) to show up. They made all the wrong choices. Misawa and Co wanted to recreate the nearly decade long processes that made them stars instead of looking what they actually had on their hands and rocking with it.

With Maru's win over Taue, near victory over Kobashi, and W over Akiyama in 2006 they had something. I don't know what the gate or ratings were like, but the crowds were flipping a shyt...and after Misawa won the strap they didn't even have that anymore as he transitioned into a listless title run where he only actually tried in one match.

Morishima, Marufuji, KENTA, Go, Suigara, Akiyama, and the invading Kensuke being the guys trading the title is the absolute best NOAH could do. What the hell is KENTA adding to the company being JR champ in 2009? Or Jr tag champ with Kanemaru in 2011? Just re-treading old territory. Any time he got into the ring with a Takiyama or Kensuke there used to be a palpable excitement because maybe, just maybe, this is the time when he got it done. But after so many years of teasing and never pulling the trigger, how can they expect people to care?

Both Maru and KENTA were having a properly handled transition to the main event scene in 2006. Both had close matches with Kobashi, with Bashi even breaking out a Wrist-Clutch Burning Hammer to put KENTA down. Maru beat Taue. They went to a 30 min draw with Rikioh and Morishima. Maru wins the belt...then Maru loses the belt and becomes an occassional main even jobber for the rest of eternity and KENTA goes onto to bullying juniors...again.
 

Jmare007

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I don't buy it. NOAH could've been progressive and started the wheels turning as far as change in the industry by having KENTA and Maru, their two most over home brewed products, pick off the old guard (who were properly fukking old) and started a transition from the veteran love fest that is puro (specifically the Kings Road style they imploy) to something which more effectively reflected the era.

For KENTA and Maru to be successful 5-6 years ago, NOAH would have to change it's whole philosophy and try to be Dragon Gate lite.

There's just no way 2 guys who were known juniors and who don't look like legit heavyweights were going succeed in a traditional puro promotion. Main reason being that their fan base is also very old school and traditional and are not gonna spend money on those kinds of wrestlers, no matter how over and popular they are. Give KENTA the belt and crowds are gonna start chanting "Akiyama" the same way they were chanting "Misawa" when Marufuji got the push.

Nowadays it doesn't matter because the fan base is so small and so loyal that even if you put a guy like KENTA on top, it won't make much of a difference.

Instead they held on forever, just waiting for some heavyweights who they didn't fukking have aside from Morishima and Go (who they completely fukked up) to show up. They made all the wrong choices. Misawa and Co wanted to recreate the nearly decade long processes that made them stars instead of looking what they actually had on their hands and rocking with it.

Completely agree. NOAH's booking was beyond moronic for 6-7 years straight.

They didn't take advantage of Kobashi's reign and didn't build for the future when they should've.

The pushes for Rikio and Maru were desperate moves that were gonna fail anyway and on top of that they were fukked by stupid booking. Anything that came after that were band aids that couldn't stop the bleeding.

With Maru's win over Taue, near victory over Kobashi, and W over Akiyama in 2006 they had something. I don't know what the gate or ratings were like, but the crowds were flipping a shyt...and after Misawa won the strap they didn't even have that anymore as he transitioned into a listless title run where he only actually tried in one match.

Nah man, they didn't have something. The crowds were awful (at the time) for that Maru reign. Misawa got the belt because the crowds were chanting for him and because they got desperate...without Kobashi and with Akiyama - for whatever reason - not wanting to step up, old broken down Misawa was the only one who could carry them to at least mediocrity.

Could they had a little more patience with Maru? In hindsight, yeah...maybe. But you are talking a bout a company that was selling out Budokan and that suddenly was having record low numbers. If they stayed with Maru they needed a 180° change and that wasn't gonna happen. It's just naive thinking they would have.

Morishima, Marufuji, KENTA, Go, Suigara, Akiyama, and the invading Kensuke being the guys trading the title is the absolute best NOAH could do. What the hell is KENTA adding to the company being JR champ in 2009? Or Jr tag champ with Kanemaru in 2011? Just re-treading old territory. Any time he got into the ring with a Takiyama or Kensuke there used to be a palpable excitement because maybe, just maybe, this is the time when he got it done. But after so many years of teasing and never pulling the trigger, how can they expect people to care?

Again, I agree that they booking sucked ass and didn't help matters.

But believing a Jr. like KENTA was going to mean ANYTHING to them as a champ is just naive. Being over does not mean you are gonna draw, and that's the case with him in a traditional promotion like NOAH. You are mixing crowd reaction of hardcore fans to the ability to attract more casual fans.

fukk, New Japan had fans going apeshyt for feuds like Ogawa/Hashimoto and some products of Inokism. But at the end of the day, it was a clusterfukk and almost destroyed NJPW.

Both Maru and KENTA were having a properly handled transition to the main event scene in 2006. Both had close matches with Kobashi, with Bashi even breaking out a Wrist-Clutch Burning Hammer to put KENTA down. Maru beat Taue. They went to a 30 min draw with Rikioh and Morishima. Maru wins the belt...then Maru loses the belt and becomes an occassional main even jobber for the rest of eternity and KENTA goes onto to bullying juniors...again.

Those pushes didn't stop just because breh, they stopped because they weren't doing anything beyond their hardcore fans.

Look, could NOAH have helped Maru and KENTA with decent booking? fukk yeah. But there's no evidence whatsoever that it would have translated in successful business. In fact there's only evidence of the contrary.
 

Scottie Drippin

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There was a transition in philosophy necessary, transitions take time, and it's not like they had any other options. There's nothing they could've done to prevent their share of the market from shriveling, but turning to the old heads to try and hold onto a diminishing audience is never the right call. They might be able to hold onto what they have (which of course they didn't), but you're never going to attract more fans with the flabby and sick brigade.

They were always going down, but they could've been proactive in the change and had a couple of years of an interesting, unique product. Now they're in this position with fukk all tools to play with.
 

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Again, I agree that going back to Misawa and the old heads was also a bad decision. They were lazy as fukk for waaay to many years and it came to bite them in the ass.

But they could've been fine if they've started to build new heavyweights in 04' and 05'. They could've done a lot of stuff that didn't escape from "traditional" puro standards.

KENTA and Maru weren't the only chances they had to survive past Kobashi. They were options, sure, but they would have need too many things to go perfectly. Why not go the more safe route like New Japan? It's a proven formula and they were in a better position than them in 04-06.
 

Scottie Drippin

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Again, I agree that going back to Misawa and the old heads was also a bad decision. They were lazy as fukk for waaay to many years and it came to bite them in the ass.

But they could've been fine if they've started to build new heavyweights in 04' and 05'. They could've done a lot of stuff that didn't escape from "traditional" puro standards.

KENTA and Maru weren't the only chances they had to survive past Kobashi. They were options, sure, but they would have need too many things to go perfectly. Why not go the more safe route like New Japan? It's a proven formula and they were in a better position than them in 04-06.

Thats my point, though. They didn't have the roster to go that route. What viable new heavyweights did they have other than Go and Morishima? They were inundated with talented juniors, had fukk all for heavyweights. Their scene was Kobashi, Misawa, Akiyama, Taue, Sano, Saito, Honda, Ogawa, Rikioh, Morishima and a freelancing Takyama, eventually a freelancing Sasaki. Go would up pop later.

They apparently realized this as they spent years making Maru and KENTA look like legit crossover "openweight" contenders and potential claimants to the throne. They pull the trigger in 2006 with all their big matches, then throw years of build in the bushes from 2007 on.
 

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lol, that's my point too.

Their biggest mistake was letting their heavy division grow old and never even try to replace it with young blood. Instead they go the Openweight route, which is a HUGE gamble and needs a lot of shyt to go perfectly for it to work. They panicked and threw that to the bushes.

There's no signs in any traditional puro promotion that going full force with Maru and KENTA would have lead them anywhere. Instead, there's plenty of examples of replacing the old guard going without trying to change a philosophy that has been established for decades.

I seriously don't see them doing good business at the Budokan in 07' with KENTA headlining.
 

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lol, that's my point too.

Their biggest mistake was letting their heavy division grow old and never even try to replace it with young blood. Instead they go the Openweight route, which is a HUGE gamble and needs a lot of shyt to go perfectly for it to work. They panicked and threw that to the bushes.

There's no signs in any traditional puro promotion that going full force with Maru and KENTA would have lead them anywhere. Instead, there's plenty of examples of replacing the old guard going without trying to change a philosophy that has been established for decades.

I seriously don't see them doing good business at the Budokan in 07' with KENTA headlining.

This is true, but I think what he's trying to say is that they HAD no heavyweights to develop to replace the glut of old guard AJPWers/Mediocre Mid Carders as per puro tradition. Remember, the NOAH dojo produced pretty much zero noteworthy talents other than Shiozaki. How exactly were they going to replenish the HW division?

There was no reason to go away from Marufuji as quickly as they did, especially when they just went back to Misawa and rode him into the ground. And like I wrote before, part of it was their own damn fault for booking Marufuji like idiots, and yes Junior Heavies don't typically draw on top due to size bias (there was no difference here), but when you're having a talent influx problem that starts with the Heavyweights, a solution, or at least a stopgap, needs to be found proactively. Marufuji could've been an experiment until Morishima beat him in Jan. 2007 or even a bit earlier while they figured out a plan.

But of course, none of that happened. They didn't hedge their bets, pushed the Jr. Heavy division into redundancy, mishandled the 2 decent Heavyweight talents they had horribly, drove the older guys they had into death or retirement (I can't believe that Akiyama is still wrestling at such a high level with his injury history) and, well, here we are.
 

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This is true, but I think what he's trying to say is that they HAD no heavyweights to develop to replace the glut of old guard AJPWers/Mediocre Mid Carders as per puro tradition. Remember, the NOAH dojo produced pretty much zero noteworthy talents other than Shiozaki. How exactly were they going to replenish the HW division?

There was no reason to go away from Marufuji as quickly as they did, especially when they just went back to Misawa and rode him into the ground. And like I wrote before, part of it was their own damn fault for booking Marufuji like idiots, and yes Junior Heavies don't typically draw on top due to size bias (there was no difference here), but when you're having a talent influx problem that starts with the Heavyweights, a solution, or at least a stopgap, needs to be found proactively. Marufuji could've been an experiment until Morishima beat him in Jan. 2007 or even a bit earlier while they figured out a plan.

But of course, none of that happened. They didn't hedge their bets, pushed the Jr. Heavy division into redundancy, mishandled the 2 decent Heavyweight talents they had horribly, drove the older guys they had into death or retirement (I can't believe that Akiyama is still wrestling at such a high level with his injury history) and, well, here we are.

Yeah, I get that point. I guess we are discussing two different things/times were they fukked up the most.

Thing is, to me, even if they don't fukk up the booking, going the Openweight route is very risky and completely unpredictable in terms of business. When they are pushing KENTA and Maru, things are already looking bad and no matter how well they booked I don't see them doing anything significant drawing wise.

I focus more on 04'-05' because that's when they should've have open tryouts (it took almost a decade for them to have one :mindblown:), create the Global League and trying to find new heavies.

Instead of the Openweights. Why not give the belt to an outsider to spark things up post Kobashi? Why not use Akiyama for a 6 month reign while you have the Global League to groom Morishima and Go?
 

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New Japan has a PPV scheduled for April 7th, the same day as WrestleMania.


I wonder which will be the better show. :pachaha:
 

Jmare007

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Laughter 7 back after all? :wtf:

Got this from Strong Style Symphony (the guy who posted it never trolls or bullshyts about this kinda stuff)

Full card for the PPV is out.

Nagata/Nakanishi/Tonga/Liger/TM vs Yano/Iizuka/Ishii/YOSHI-HASHI/Jado
KUSHIDA/Shelley vs Romero/Richards
Devitt/Taguchi
Archer/Smith vs TenKoji
Makabe/Takahashi
Goto/Inoue vs Saku/Shibata
Nakamura/Mashimo
Okada/Suzuki
Tanahashi/Anderson
 

Honga Ciganesta

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What's going on here :ohhh:

Okada/Suzuki is the match that stands out on that card, interested to see how Nakamura/Mashimo turns out as well, I'm sure it'll be good.

I've had about enough of

Archer/Smith vs TenKoji

though.

Was sure this was going to be a pretty skippable card, then they throw out Okada/Suzuki and a Laughter 7 comeback. :wow:

Pic

qd2Xr2P.jpg
 

TrueEpic08

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Laughter 7 back after all? :wtf:

Got this from Strong Style Symphony (the guy who posted it never trolls or bullshyts about this kinda stuff)

Wait, didn't Kidani step down and didn't everyone hate him bringing in Laughter 7? :mindblown:

You know what, fukk it. Not trying to rationalize this mid-2000s Inokism retraux anymore.
 
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