It's never been about Peyton vs. Brady...It's BEEN about Manning the OC vs. Bill Belichek the DC

No1

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The people getting into this inane debate about whether or not Manning is an OC are missing the point. This thread would carry the same message if it were titled "it's about manning vs belichick" instead of "its about manning the OC vs Belichick the DC."

Notice in this thread no one is disputing whether or not Bill Belichick is literally a defensive coordinator. Patriots clearly have a defensive coordinator. Obviously Belichick is a defensive minded head coach who probably has a heavy hand in how the Patriot's gameplan/operate on defense but he's not the defensive coordinator.The same premise is true for Manning. Obviously Manning isn't literally an OC. Lets say we conclusively prove Manning isn't an OC, just a QB. Does that make the central point of this thread any more true/untrue?

The hilariously ironic thing is the reason people get so gassed up over Manning being called an OC is because they take it as a slight against other QBs. Mainly Manning's contemporaries like.....Brady! It's really jsut further fueling the Brady vs Manning narrative that this whole thread is trying to GET AWAY FROM. I quoted a couple of posts to show what I mean:





A lot of it is coming down to a desire to demonstrate that Brady does just as much on/off the field as Manning does...when that argument is completely irrelevant to the actual point of the thread. It actually strengthen's OP's argument that people are too caught up in running the QB vs Qb angle to look at things from a different perspective.
No, this just makes you look like you did not follow the argument. Both @bk and I clearly broke down Reb's poor "argument." It was transparent, and nothing was novel about it. If this thread was an attempt to get away from from Brady vs. Manning then he never would've mentioned Brady's name. He tried a slight of hand of bigging up Bellichick while quietly asserting that Peyton was superior to every other QB in the NFL and that his struggles vs. Bellichick should be mitigated because Brady would struggle against this God coach too. Outside of that, there was nothing original in his post and nothing he said was anything that hasn't been stated at any point during the last 30 years.

You asserted that "a lot of this is to show that Brady does the same things as Manning" while clearly asserting that Peyton Manning is an OC--basically cosigning Reb. You did a lot of typing to basically that you agree with Reb's post, but none of it disputed a thing bk or I said. There would have been no talk of OCs if HE DIDN'T assert it so I have no idea where you come in deflecting his actions onto us. Last, your head coach-DC argument is misguided. You're attempting to say that titles do not determine what one does, but certain coaches are hired specifically to implement certain systems and to play certain roles. Belli was a DC before he was a head coach and he never fully relinquished those duties. That's obvious. No one ever intended for there to be a distinction between what the defense does and a defensive head coach. It is a distinction without a difference. But to assert that a quarterback, designs his entire game plan for the next week by himself, and then calls all of his own plays and makes his own adjustments (you know everything the OC does) and that only he does this, and no one else, while having no evidence to support this and more evidence to the contrary....is entirely different than asserting that a defensive-minded head coach organizes the defensive strategy. One is documented, the other is a superlative that fans have mistakenly taken literally.

It always offensive STAFF vs. defensive STAFF. The elite QBs get more say in that, but that's a given. I still don't get what inspired this thread.
 

cook

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Who said he was perfect? Point blank, he has a track record of success against good qbs.






Here's the thing....Peyton goes into a game with a gameplan developed with an OC over the course is the week. Yet he's the ONLY qb In The NFL that goes to the LOS with the entire offense at his finger tips to reach for when he wants.




Knowshow had 9 fumbles in three seasons before tearing his knee up and just sniffed his first 1000 yard season after five years in the league. He lost his spot to old ass Willis McGhee before tearing uP his knee. dude is almost cut last year until

This dude was considered one of he leagues biggest draft BUSTS on the verge of being CUT. I'm in record in the old board prior to draft saying "McCoy is the best back in the draft." and you think your little data mining of stats is going to change the fact that dude wasn't garbage? :wtf:
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/fee...ps-possible-busts-knowshon-moreno-kyle-wilson
http://www.thefalcoholic.com/2012/5...-may-be-traded-or-released-but-should-we-care
http://broncotalk.net/2012/02/30318/denver-broncos/knowshon-moreno-future-with-broncos/
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/surpri...os-final-roster-cuts-fans-010400890--nfl.html
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-t...ange-shifting-climate-of-the-nfl-running-back

Have you watched football? He wasn't even the sure starter coming into this season.
Everyone knows he's still a scrub not worth the selection and YOU want to make him out to be or of the leagues better inner a until Peyton saved his ass? :laff:

My point was, Peyton makes him.


no...you do. I KNOW crafting a gameplan is the job of an OC.and Peyton is still the only qb in the league that crafts gameplan a with his OC from start to finish...not handed a gameplan on Wednesdays like every other qb in the league.




The rest of this shyt is not worth my time. Any dude that said Knowshon Moreno wasn't a scrub befor Peyton because he did some data mining doesn't know football.

So basically your points about why you think Manning is vastly superior to any other QB in history is because Moreno has played well this year and because Manning gets the plays on Tuesday instead of Wednesday.


Is Peyton the running backs coach now too or could it be as simple as any good QB/passing attack is going to make it easier to run the ball :ohhh: My point was that Moreno has always had talent, not that he was a great back. (oh and BTW, Ridley has had 8 fumbles in 3 years and been inactive for stretches of games and is currently the 3rd back on the depth chart behind Vareen and Legarette fukkkin Blount)


I'm not so sure you want to go down a road where we start discussing which QBs have done more with less at the skill positions.


As for all QBs being handed a gameplan...I'm sure after reading this giant love affair for Belichick thread that you've seen the Football Life with Belichick. Perhaps you just forgot the scene with him and Brady from their weekly meetings where Belichick hands him the gameplan and Brady discuss their opponent and craft the gameplan together.

The people getting into this inane debate about whether or not Manning is an OC are missing the point. This thread would carry the same message if it were titled "it's about manning vs belichick" instead of "its about manning the OC vs Belichick the DC."

Notice in this thread no one is disputing whether or not Bill Belichick is literally a defensive coordinator. I pointed out that Belichick is not the DC earlier. Do you read threads or just skim through them? Patriots clearly have a defensive coordinator. Obviously Belichick is a defensive minded head coach who probably has a heavy hand in how the Patriot's gameplan/operate on defense but he's not the defensive coordinator.The same premise is true for Manning. Obviously Manning isn't literally an OC. Lets say we conclusively prove Manning isn't an OC, just a QB. Does that make the central point of this thread any more true/untrue? If the thread wanted to highlight the battles between Manning/Beli then I wouldn't have a problem with it. However the OP wants to make it out like Manning does wayyy more than anyone else, has all these special privileges that other QBs dont have and has been tormented his whole career by lack of talent at the skills positions, which hes trying to prove by bringing up Moreno.

The hilariously ironic thing is the reason people get so gassed up over Manning being called an OC is because they take it as a slight against other QBs. Mainly Manning's contemporaries like.....Brady! It's really jsut further fueling the Brady vs Manning narrative that this whole thread is trying to GET AWAY FROM. I quoted a couple of posts to show what I mean: It is fueling that, something that I also mentioned over and over throughout my posts if you had bothered to read the other ones. However its really been the OP is fueling that narrative and thinks just becuse he tells people not to talk about it that hes not.

"This thread isn't about Manning vs Brady, but Manning does so much more than Brady or anyone else and if you dispute that you're an idiot because I'm telling this thread isn't about Manning vs Brady!!!"





A lot of it is coming down to a desire to demonstrate that Brady does just as much on/off the field as Manning does...when that argument is completely irrelevant to the actual point of the thread. It actually strengthen's OP's argument that people are too caught up in running the QB vs Qb angle to look at things from a different perspective. That point is not irrelevant to the thread because the OP has introduced that angle into the thread, which has been my problem since the start.

It would be irrelevant to a thread that wanted to make the point that the heads up matches between QBs are simply a media narrative and the real matchup is between QB and defense/DC. I totally agree with that and told him pages and pages ago that he hurt that argument by trying to shove this Manning is an OC, does more than anyone else (which all is ironically a media narrative itself) idea down our throats.

The main points I've tried to make
A) It should always be about QB vs DC, no matter who the QBs are. Its not exclusive to Manning & Brady
B) Peyton may have more freedom and responsibility than most other QBs, but not all and he's not a OC
C) A & B should really be separate topics and the OP fukked up by trying to combine them.
 

Street Knowledge

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QB vs QB has always been dumb


but its fairly obvious you are only pointing this out in an attempt to slight brady

"manning the QB OC" is also retarded. manning can frantically flap his arms around like an idiot all he wants, it doesnt make his presnap reads and adjustments any better or more impressive than bradys.

This. The Crazy thing people actually believe manning is doing something different or has more control over his offense then the other top QBs. Its a combination of the flapping his arms thing and the media starting this myth around 2003

I just don't like the hypocrisy tho. When peyton does well he gets all the credit because he's the real HC/OC, when he does poorly it's all the coaches fault. But Wait.. I thought HE was the coach? And if he is he needs to get more blame for calling the wrong plays in crunch time or the postseason overall
 

NYC Rebel

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So basically your points about why you think Manning is vastly superior to any other QB in history is because Moreno has played well this year and because Manning gets the plays on Tuesday instead of Wednesday.

No...this is some corny shyt you drew up to respond to....not me. I didn't compare Peyton's "superiority" to any other qb....you did.


Is Peyton the running backs coach now too or could it be as simple as any good QB/passing attack is going to make it easier to run the ball :ohhh:


No...Peyton is one of the best Qbs at audibiling into run plays. How many times have we seen defenses overloaded to one side anticipating the pass and Peyton switches to a run to the weak side? Most of Morelos big runs are a byproduct of those mismatches Peyton recognizes on the LOS more than his ability. He did the same for Joseph addai.


My point was that Moreno has always had talent, not that he was a great back. (oh and BTW, Ridley has had 8 fumbles in 3 years and been inactive for stretches of games and is currently the 3rd back on the depth chart behind Vareen and Legarette fukkkin Blount)


He still isn't a very talented. He's slow as shyt, isn't explosive and whose talent squarely relies on his pass blocking ability and hands....the two things valued historically by any back playing alongside Peyton.

Moreno is more fortunate than he is talented.

I'm not so sure you want to go down a road where we start discussing which QBs have done more with less at the skill positions.

Clearly you're aiming to move the goalpost that way to mask the fact that you've datamined Knowshon Moreno into being a talented player. Dude is still trash.

As for all QBs being handed a gameplan...I'm sure after reading this giant love affair for Belichick thread that you've seen the Football Life with Belichick. Perhaps you just forgot the scene with him and Brady from their weekly meetings where Belichick hands him the gameplan and Brady discuss their opponent and craft the gameplan together.

All qbs get handed a gameplan. I never argued that. Besides Peyton, Brady is one of the few qbs that have most of an offense available at the LOS. The same pat kirwan I referred to earlier said similar about Brady yet said that during his time Peyton was still the only one with the entire offense available to him at the LOS. Argue with those guys that interact with them and work with Peyton instead of me.

Third...where did I say Peyton crafts an offensive game plan alone? Not even an OC crafts a gameplan alone.....so why make the point that I've never asserted? I gave the clear difference in Peyton running an offense from Monday to Sunday compared to other qbs. His approach to the 168 hour football work week is uniquely different which I clearly spelled out myself personally knowing how that work week takes place and a gameplan evolves.[/quote]
 

dh86

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He was a game manager. A GOAT caliber game manager based on the abilites he has displayed since but a game manager nonetheless. He was asked not to fukk it up and he didn't. Since then he's been given better weapons and greater responsibility and had some very Peyton like seasons (great stats during the regular season, not so great stats in the posteseason and an L). The game manager stuff is a result of people holding Brady's rings over Mannings head. He clearly wasn't being asked to do the same things back then. Now that he is he's having the same results and now nikkas are reduced to arguing about how shyt was 13 years ago. :heh:

Give me the difference between Brady's 2001 playoffs and Mannings 2006 playoffs, narratives guy? Why yes, a GAME MANAGER is knocking on the door of appearing in his sixth Super Bowl with six diff leading rusher and sixth diff receiver. This site is the epitome of comedy.
 

dh86

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This. Brady was a game manager "don't fukk up" QB when he first broke in. Son completed 1 TD pass through the whole playoffs when he won that 1st ring. Brady is still great, but gotdamn, folk try so hard to big him up and shyt on Peyton. They're both fukking great. I still roll with Peyton cuz as Reb said, he is an OC. If there's no Belli...he probably gets another ring or 2.

Peyton threw 3 tds and 7 ints in the playoffs when he won his only ring. Was his job not to fukk it up for his top level defense?
 

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Peyton threw 3 tds and 7 ints in the playoffs when he won his only ring. Was his job not to fukk it up for his top level defense?
Bob Sanders return from injury was more an integral part of the 2006 Colts team than it was Peyton being the reason they won that year.
 

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Give me the difference between Brady's 2001 playoffs and Mannings 2006 playoffs, narratives guy? Why yes, a GAME MANAGER is knocking on the door of appearing in his sixth Super Bowl with six diff leading rusher and sixth diff receiver. This site is the epitome of comedy.

Not too much of a difference and I've always made that point. Winning a SB is about having a complete team not the greatness of the QB. Brady's career arc is proof of this. Brady has been better as an individual player over the last 8 years than he was in those first 4 and he's had the likes of Moss, Gronk, Welker, but he's got no rings to show for it. Why? Because the more dependent you are on your QB (no matter how great he is) the less likely you are to win. That's the story of Mannings career and the story of the majority of Brady's career.
 

Based Lord Zedd

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You asserted that "a lot of this is to show that Brady does the same things as Manning" while clearly asserting that Peyton Manning is an OC--basically cosigning Reb.

Obviously Manning isn't literally an OC.

:mindblown:

Manning isn't an OC. Belichick isn't a DC.

Like I said only one of these is being taken literally and dissected though.

How stupid would it be to give one individual both full QB and OC duties? Doesn't even make sense why this would happen or why any team would try it.

But to assert that a quarterback, designs his entire game plan for the next week by himself, and then calls all of his own plays and makes his own adjustments (you know everything the OC does) and that only he does this, and no one else, while having no evidence to support this and more evidence to the contrary....is entirely different than asserting that a defensive-minded head coach organizes the defensive strategy. One is documented, the other is a superlative that fans have mistakenly taken literally.


No one is asserting this though, it's a strawman argument.

Calling Manning an OC is really just an extension of the entire "he's like a coach on the field" label a lot of players get across MULTIPLE sports. It's not even a big deal, I don't see why people taking such a big issue with it.
 
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JYoung24

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I'm tired of people saying brady was throwing to scrub msg those dudes were underrated receivers that fit their systemic peyton was playing with Deion branch he would of been a 1100 or 1200 yard reciever he made dallas clark and brandon stokely look like elite players
 

JLova

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Peyton threw 3 tds and 7 ints in the playoffs when he won his only ring. Was his job not to fukk it up for his top level defense?

Err. That has never been Peyton's job. Ever. He simply didn't play well...That's about it.
 
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