mastermind
Rest In Power Kobe
for me, if you have him at 17-30, I don't have much beef.Really? I don't think many people rate him that high. That's around where I'd put him as well.
for me, if you have him at 17-30, I don't have much beef.Really? I don't think many people rate him that high. That's around where I'd put him as well.
I notice you dropped Duncan from the conversation completely.Shaq needed a sidekick that was a scorer whenever he won a chip.
Honestly, I've never even thought about that.Imagine Shaq developing chemistry with Stockton feeding him his entire career AND top-5 shooting guards rotating through and saying that team wouldn't win any titles.
Lmao. Imagine if Shaq played with someone who passed like Stockton, then with a reliable 3 guy on the outside. Sheesh.Shaq needed a sidekick that was a scorer whenever he won a chip.
I don't argue facts just to be a contrarian. The difference with me and other mufukkas is if facts are presented I'll capitulate instead of just keep going back and forth to be rightI notice you dropped Duncan from the conversation completely.
I'm sure that 15ppg on 37% shooting that Kobe pulled in the 2000 Finals couldn't possibly be replicated by John Stockton or Jeff Malone or Jeff Hornacek. Kobe only averaged 20-21 in the WCSF and WCF that year too.
In the 1989 first round, John Stockton averaged 27 and 14 on 51% shooting....and the Jazz still lost to the freaking Chris Mullin Warriors. A team that went down to the Tom Chambers Suns in the very next round.
In the 1990 first round, Thurl Bailey averaged 21ppg on 49% shooting....and the Jazz still lost to the Tom Chambers Suns.
In the 1991 WCSF, Jeff Malone averaged 22ppg on 52% shooting and John Stockton averaged 18ppg on 48% shooting....and the Jazz still lost in 5 to Drexler's Blazers (despite Drexler only averaging 19ppg).
In the 1996 WCF, Jeff Hornacek averaged 20ppg on 49% shooting....and the Malone/Stockton Jazz still lost to the Kemp/Payton Sonics.
I could keep listing more, but that's FOUR different times with FOUR different teammates that Malone had someone else put up 20+ppg and still lost the series. He had plenty of guys on his teams who could get buckets. Put Hakeem or Shaq or Duncan with that level of talent and they would eat. Malone just don't belong on their tier when push comes to shove.
That's ok, but if you consider most of them bums keep that same energy with the garbage ass era of today. fukking Nikola Vucevic throwing up 20/10 in his sleep
Yeah, he has a strong argument for #2 all-time power forward. However, there's been a lot more great centers than great power forwards, so being #2 in the PF slot doesn't get you into the top-10 overall.
I don't think Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Lebron, Russell, Hakeem, Duncan, Bird, Shaq, or Wilt should have any reason to fear Karl Malone taking one of their top-10 slots.
Stockton was around as long as Malone was, and I don't have him touching the top-10 either. I don't like the idea of longevity trumping dominance - my top-10 list is a list of guys who were the best, not the guys who were really good for a really long time. If Malone really was one of the GOATs independently of anyone else, and he had a top-5 all-time PG and a HOF coach matching him step-for-step his entire prime, then he should have had more success than he did. I mean...his playoff history is basically, "whipping boy for whoever in the West is actually sorta good this year". From his rookie season on, he went out early a LOT...he's like the anti-Lebron in the 1st round too.
Mavs, 1st round, 3 games to 1. (after making WCSF previous two years)
Warriors, 1st round, 3 games to 2.
Lakers, WCSF, 4 games to 3
Warriors, 1st round, sweep
Suns, 1st round, 3 games to 2
Blazers, WCSF, 4 games to 1
Blazers, WCF, 4 games to 2
Sonics, 1st round, 3 games to 2
Rockets, WCF, 4 games to 1
Rockets, 1st round, 3 games to 2
Sonics, WCF, 4 games to 3
Bulls, Finals, 4 games to 2
Bulls , Finals, 4 games to 2
Blazers, WCSF, 4 games to 2
Blazers, WCF, 4 games to 1
Mavs, 1st round, 3 games to 2
Kings, 1st round, 3 games to 1
Kings, 1st round, 4 games to 1
Then the Lakers debacle...
One less ring than both but 3 MVP's and 7 rebounding titles i believe. He's not over either of them but it isn't a stretch if someone did put him ahead in my honest opinion.I'm sure 250 was his rookie weight that never was updated. No way Karl was 250.
No he shouldn't
Nah. Who is your Top 10?
The accolades are there but his skillset doesn't compare to them. His game was centered around his offensive rebounding, and it's widely believed he played to pad his stats. Couldn't pass and was decent at best on D.One less ring than both but 3 MVP's and 7 rebounding titles i believe. He's not over either of them but it isn't a stretch if someone did put him ahead in my honest opinion.
And Wilt came up short in the playoffs time and again and Dream won his titles when Jordan retired. Moses had his faults but all those boards weren't padded and he passed good enough to win a ring and make the Hall.The accolades are there but his skillset doesn't compare to them. His game was centered around his offensive rebounding, and it's widely believed he played to pad his stats. Couldn't pass and was decent at best on D.
Dream won a title with Jordan retired.And Wilt came up short in the playoffs time and again and Dream won his titles when Jordan retired. Moses had his faults but all those boards weren't padded and he passed good enough to win a ring and make the Hall.
Wilt constantly ran into the Celtics with 7-8 HOF players. It's well documented Hakeem was playing with basically no help. The Rockets also matched up well with the Bulls anyway for whatever reason.And Wilt came up short in the playoffs time and again and Dream won his titles when Jordan retired. Moses had his faults but all those boards weren't padded and he passed good enough to win a ring and make the Hall.
Wilt and Dream don't have any early exits bruh? Moses didn't play with some shytty teams in Houston? Wilt had a few Hall of Fame teammates too and regardless his numbers went down a lot during the postseason but i guess that was cause the Celts had 7-8 HOF players though?Wilt constantly ran into the Celtics with 7-8 HOF players. It's well documented Hakeem was playing with basically no help. The Rockets also matched up well with the Bulls anyway for whatever reason.
Him winning a ring had nothing to do with becoming a decent passer Moses also got a First Round exist in 2 of his 3 MVP seasons of we're going to do this.
Don't know if you watched the game or were old enough to remember but either way that Jordan in 95 wasn't the real Jordan and we all know it. And it ain't like Dream beat him anyway.Dream won a title with Jordan retired.
Last I checked, Jordan unretired in 1995 and was on the court in the 1995 NBA Playoffs, basketball shape or not. He was available.