I'm starting to hate the gay agenda being forced upon people

MeachTheMonster

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Who cares whether I'm Black or gay (I'm Black, which I'm getting a little sick of clarifying), if I feel that there is something that I see fit to comment on, then I don't see what my sexuality or race has to do with it. Who cares, why exclude the field like that? As long as the commenter is educated, I see no problem with them commenting on it.

What the fukk is this nebulous "gay agenda" anyway? No gay man or woman has ever come to me with some type of manifesto to take over all media, it's just them getting representation that wasn't there due to prejudices against gays, the same as what happened for us when we got representation that wasn't there for Blacks in the media beforehand. It's the same thing.

You say that there is nothing wrong with being gay, yet you can't accept a gay man or woman in any form? I feel that attitude signifies that you think that there is something wrong with being gay. Also, if you really thought that there was nothing wrong with it, you wouldn't preface that statement with "other than it being biologically abnormal." That's a huge problem that you have with it.

In what way did I allude to gays being slaves. Their struggle, at this point, is the same as ours: equal rights and representation in all forms to that of the most privileged form in Western society: the heterosexual White male. You're telling me that there aren't serious laws that prevent them from having the same quality of life as a heterosexual male? You're telling me that there aren't laws around the world BANNING homosexuality, which would actually be the same as banning being Black? Configuring their struggle in the way that you did is reductive and prejudiced.

And the chromosomal difference is one that has nothing to do with the constructed categorization of Male and Female, and all of the signifiers and performativity that goes into determining what a person is beyond those lines. Separate the genetic make-up from the cultural and societal designations of that genetic make-up.

I don't have a problem with gay people in the same way I don't have a problem with crackheads, I don't "agree" with their actions but It doesn't bother me I they smoke it

You being a black, or gay is important because if you have not experienced the struggle there is no way for you to enlighten me about it. Like said in an earlier post, I have talked to gay people that agree with my opinion on the issue.

Also if you read my earlier posts you would see that I AGREE that gay people should have all the same rights i do.


And again black people fought to be even considered "people"'let alone to get equal rights, hell we are still fighting for some of the same rights that gay people enjoy right now. The two situations don't compare. It was never illegal to be black, we where not even considered people and where killed on site because of it

And chromosomes have everything to do with the way society views men and women. We are not just physically different. From an evolutionary standpoint we are totally different. Our chemical make up is different, our thoughts, emotions, hormones,skills,Ect are different. Society organized the rolls of men and women along the lines of evolution. Men are looked at as protectors not because society decided so but because that is what our instincts tell us to do. If you want to talk about things society "made up" it would actually be homosexuality, there is no evolutionary advantage to having sex with the same sex.

And lastly I say the agenda is a problem for this reason. They are not just asking for rights, some are, but others have taken it to the extreme kinda like PETA. Yes they should have rights, but they shouldn't be immune to criticism. I have to conform in certain ways, if I want to be an accepted part of society. The gay agenda says they shouldn't have to. It says they should be able to do what they want to but not deal with the consequences. The gay agenda means we have to accept trans genders as women, meaning they would be able to compete against women in sports. Men would not know if the woman they are marrying is actually a woman. Kids would be confused as hell. You can say being gay is in their genes, but we all know kids are very impressional. Wether the kids have the gene or not they can very much be confused and influenced by the gay agenda.

This is about my rights as well because if we let things go too far than my rights are being infringed against as well and I don't agree with that.
 

No1

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I'll fall on the ax for being moderator and letting the thread title exist as is. I figured that you guys would either police it yourselves or someone would report it. You did end up policing it yourselves. If you can't tell, I don't like to direct people all that much. I got it next time. Carry on.
 

Black Hans

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Transgenders just want to dress up in womens clothes, wear make up and all frilly shyt. Pretty sure they wouldn't want to deal with periods, child birth and all the other things women typically go through. They can never be compared to women, and the fact that they're now allowed to compete in the Miss Universe pageant is disgusting.

:what::what::krs:

They trying to sow confusion. You looking at one chick like :drool: then they announce in the media that that was really a dude. You'll be like :dwillhuh::sadcam:
 

Dusty Bake Activate

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5 stars, dap, +rep.

I'm not even on that ''hate all gays sh!t''. Faqqitry is God awful disgusting, but to each his own. But man! You can't have the TV on for 3 seconds without this trashy media of ours shoving that filth down our throats as if we're supposed to bow down to it or some sh!t. It's getting really annoying.

Lol...Meta Reign, the hateful, vitriolic "fakkitry is a psychosis" homophobe who is also a rah rah freedom this, freedom that gung-ho ass libertarian. :comeon:

Different board, same idiot.
 

TrueEpic08

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I don't have a problem with gay people in the same way I don't have a problem with crackheads, I don't "agree" with their actions but It doesn't bother me I they smoke it

But here's the thing, just because you type it like that doesn't make it true. Over the course of your posts, you've detailed problems with how they handle themselves in public, how they perform "maleness" or perform their transgender identity, as well as problems with the very nature of being a transsexual. Not to mention that you see it as "against nature" (despite homosexuality being observed in nature quite a bit), that qualifies as huge problems with gays in my book.

You being a black, or gay is important because if you have not experienced the struggle there is no way for you to enlighten me about it. Like said in an earlier post, I have talked to gay people that agree with my opinion on the issue.

There are Blacks that wouldn't have the first hint of an insight about the societal and psychological struggles of a Black person in Western society and Whites that are richly educated in those very same struggles and histories. You DO know that there are White African-American studies professors and students, right (hell, I'm good friends with a White, gay AA Studies post-grad)? Is their entire project null and void due to the fact that they aren't Black? That's ridiculous. As long as you have the insight, respect and education, you can speak on anything.

Oh, yeah, and if not being gay disqualified you from debate on homosexuality, we wouldn't be writing anything right now.

Also if you read my earlier posts you would see that I AGREE that gay people should have all the same rights i do.

Yes, I read your posts, and no, you don't. You want them to have a limited version of the rights that you do, based on your perception of what being gay is, which conforms to your fears about some non-existent gay agenda and corruption of society. In your conception, they can't dress flamboyantly, they can't cross gender lines or just ignore them outright if they choose, they must define themselves as a male or female, and if they don't conform to any of these arbitrary bounds, they do not have the right to initiate contact with you or your family in any way.

How is that the same rights as you, a heterosexual male, who can behave and dress in just about any manner that you choose? One is far more restrictive than the other.

And again black people fought to be even considered "people"'let alone to get equal rights, hell we are still fighting for some of the same rights that gay people enjoy right now. The two situations don't compare. It was never illegal to be black, we where not even considered people and where killed on site because of it

And there aren't places in the world where being gay is in the process of being outlawed? There aren't populaces that consider being gay less than human (come on, there have been threads IN THIS VERY FORUM that have a subject that connotate this)? How is the present day struggle of gays to be seen as equal existences not equal to our past and continued struggle. You haven't given me an answer,rather, you have reached into past events while ignoring the present moment. What is the difference between the two in the present moment?

And chromosomes have everything to do with the way society views men and women. We are not just physically different. From an evolutionary standpoint we are totally different. Our chemical make up is different, our thoughts, emotions, hormones,skills,Ect are different. Society organized the rolls of men and women along the lines of evolution. Men are looked at as protectors not because society decided so but because that is what our instincts tell us to do. If you want to talk about things society "made up" it would actually be homosexuality, there is no evolutionary advantage to having sex with the same sex.

Are you ignoring where I have constantly said that homosexuality is found in nature? The term "homosexuality" is only as made up as the term "male" and "female," all of which act as signifiers for the body and have no inherent meaning beyond that. They also act as codings for behaviors that we group into male, female and homosexual categories. There is no link to any type of genetic make-up beyond this (and besides, I could name 20 things within the make-up of the human body that have zero evolutionary advantage. There are always leftovers from the evolutionary process that don't get filtered out. The Coccyx, the appendix and wisdom teeth are just three examples). What you have described are actions that are coded to males and females within societies, not evolutionary fait accompli. Yeah, there are differences in genetic make-up, so what? Does that mean that we should have the right to not allow someone the right to choose the genetic make-up that they would like to have?

And lastly I say the agenda is a problem for this reason. They are not just asking for rights, some are, but others have taken it to the extreme kinda like PETA. Yes they should have rights, but they shouldn't be immune to criticism. I have to conform in certain ways, if I want to be an accepted part of society. The gay agenda says they shouldn't have to. It says they should be able to do what they want to but not deal with the consequences. The gay agenda means we have to accept trans genders as women, meaning they would be able to compete against women in sports. Men would not know if the woman they are marrying is actually a woman. Kids would be confused as hell. You can say being gay is in their genes, but we all know kids are very impressional. Wether the kids have the gene or not they can very much be confused and influenced by the gay agenda.

This is about my rights as well because if we let things go too far than my rights are being infringed against as well and I don't agree with that.

This is ridiculous. 1). There is no "gay agenda." 2). Nothing regarding gay rights exempts them from societal responsibility, I have no idea where you're getting this from. 3). You should accept a transgender for whatever they want themselves to be accepted as. You wouldn't want anyone to repeatedly call you out of the name that you have accepted for yourself, right? It's the height of gross disrespect. 4). Don't care too much about the sports thing, to be honest. If my girl loses to a TS, so be it. As a matter of fact, I might have her go back to the TS for tips, as well as to assuage her fears of GLBTs. 5). Are you the defender of all kids and women, and have the right to designate what they should and shouldn't be within society? If a kid is curious, let them be. Just because they have curiosity doesn't mean that they will definitely end up gay. And if they do? So what. And what are you going to do with Transsexuals? Force them to wear TS identity cards like Nazi's forced Jews to wear Stars of David?

All this is is nothing but misguided fear made into prejudice.
 

Dirty_Jerz

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shyt gettin cray these days


to the posters in this thread comparing homosexual rights to black oppression and saying people been gay since the beginning yall nikkas need to stop :snoop: just because its been happening doesnt mean its good
 

chineebai

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I don't think there's a gay agenda, it's really just a way for the politicians to divide us. It's very evident in this thread. If someone is gay and you're straight, then what's the problem? Isn't it better for you if someone is gay? It's less competition.
 

MeachTheMonster

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But here's the thing, just because you type it like that doesn't make it true. Over the course of your posts, you've detailed problems with how they handle themselves in public, how they perform "maleness" or perform their transgender identity, as well as problems with the very nature of being a transsexual. Not to mention that you see it as "against nature" (despite homosexuality being observed in nature quite a bit), that qualifies as huge problems with gays in my book.



There are Blacks that wouldn't have the first hint of an insight about the societal and psychological struggles of a Black person in Western society and Whites that are richly educated in those very same struggles and histories. You DO know that there are White African-American studies professors and students, right (hell, I'm good friends with a White, gay AA Studies post-grad)? Is their entire project null and void due to the fact that they aren't Black? That's ridiculous. As long as you have the insight, respect and education, you can speak on anything.

Oh, yeah, and if not being gay disqualified you from debate on homosexuality, we wouldn't be writing anything right now.



Yes, I read your posts, and no, you don't. You want them to have a limited version of the rights that you do, based on your perception of what being gay is, which conforms to your fears about some non-existent gay agenda and corruption of society. In your conception, they can't dress flamboyantly, they can't cross gender lines or just ignore them outright if they choose, they must define themselves as a male or female, and if they don't conform to any of these arbitrary bounds, they do not have the right to initiate contact with you or your family in any way.

How is that the same rights as you, a heterosexual male, who can behave and dress in just about any manner that you choose? One is far more restrictive than the other.



And there aren't places in the world where being gay is in the process of being outlawed? There aren't populaces that consider being gay less than human (come on, there have been threads IN THIS VERY FORUM that have a subject that connotate this)? How is the present day struggle of gays to be seen as equal existences not equal to our past and continued struggle. You haven't given me an answer,rather, you have reached into past events while ignoring the present moment. What is the difference between the two in the present moment?



Are you ignoring where I have constantly said that homosexuality is found in nature? The term "homosexuality" is only as made up as the term "male" and "female," all of which act as signifiers for the body and have no inherent meaning beyond that. They also act as codings for behaviors that we group into male, female and homosexual categories. There is no link to any type of genetic make-up beyond this (and besides, I could name 20 things within the make-up of the human body that have zero evolutionary advantage. There are always leftovers from the evolutionary process that don't get filtered out. The Coccyx, the appendix and wisdom teeth are just three examples). What you have described are actions that are coded to males and females within societies, not evolutionary fait accompli. Yeah, there are differences in genetic make-up, so what? Does that mean that we should have the right to not allow someone the right to choose the genetic make-up that they would like to have?



This is ridiculous. 1). There is no "gay agenda." 2). Nothing regarding gay rights exempts them from societal responsibility, I have no idea where you're getting this from. 3). You should accept a transgender for whatever they want themselves to be accepted as. You wouldn't want anyone to repeatedly call you out of the name that you have accepted for yourself, right? It's the height of gross disrespect. 4). Don't care too much about the sports thing, to be honest. If my girl loses to a TS, so be it. As a matter of fact, I might have her go back to the TS for tips, as well as to assuage her fears of GLBTs. 5). Are you the defender of all kids and women, and have the right to designate what they should and shouldn't be within society? If a kid is curious, let them be. Just because they have curiosity doesn't mean that they will definitely end up gay. And if they do? So what. And what are you going to do with Transsexuals? Force them to wear TS identity cards like Nazi's forced Jews to wear Stars of David?

All this is is nothing but misguided fear made into prejudice.

You took everything I said and decided I was lying or didn't really believe what I typed. How can we have an intelegent conversation if you are just gonna say "no your lying you don't really believe that" i have no reason to lie on the Internet if I felt like I needed to lie I would just log off.

With that said I will again address all of the assumptions you made about me. Sounds like you are the one that is intolerant, you are intolerant of others opinions.

You say I have a problem with how they carry themselves. People have a problem with how I carry myself, that's ok that is their opinion they are free to have one. Travin Martin was shot and is still being persecuted for the way he carried himself. Society does this and if I'm subject to it gay people should too. I didn't say they where unnatural I said biologically they are abnormal which is true. There are one eyed fish in the wild it doesn't make them normal. They are different from the norm or abnormal. Also I never said I had a problem with the very nature of being transgendered, I don't know whos posts you are reading but they are not mine.

And no I wouldn't think a white history teacher can tell me about my experiences just like I couldn't tell him about his. And yes there are blacks that would know nothing about the struggle and you seem like one yourself. And I am not having a debate about homosexuality I am having a debate about my views as a heterosexual in a changing world.

When did I say they should get limited rights? I said they should have ALL the rights I have. I never said they couldn't dress how they wanted to, I didn't say they couldn't cross gender lines or had to define themselves man or woman. I said that I shouldn't be persecuted for disagreeing . Gay people judge me everyday ,are they wrong or hateful if they disagree with my actions or my lifestyle choices. I never said they shouldn't interact with me and my family, I even said that I have conversations and interactions with gay people on a friendly basis. And I can't dress how I want, I have to dress in what is exceptable by society. I can't walk around in my boxers because somebody might take offense. I don't have a problem with anything anybody wears and I never said I did. In fact I think we all should have more freedom in that regard.

The difference in the struggle of minorities and gays are history and the ability to chose your place in society. I understand if being gay is genetic, but you can make it through a day with no one knowing you are gay, you shouldn't HAVE to but you can. You can gain rights you don't have by playing along with society.(again it's not necessarily right but society is fukked up as we all know" I cant change or hide my skin. I will be discriminated against for the rest of my life and there us nothing I can do about it.

In society we all have a right to make our choices and others have the right to agree or disagree with those choices. Gay people would like to make those choices but people are not allowed have an opinion on them. And I know there is no evil gay empire pushing the "gay agenda" the term is just my way of explaining how I see the world. Never said I wanted to call gay people out of their name. I repect everybody, it is alot of gay people who are disrespectful and intolerant. As of right now you are being intolerant of my right to an opinion. Because I don't agree with SOME of the things gay people do you frame me as a mean hateful intolerant person. This is my big problem with the so called gay agenda, my opinion makes me a bad person but you can agree or disagree with whatever you want without consequence. And yes there are biological differences that outline our rolls as humans, men are naturally stronger and more aggressive evolutionarily this is so we can defend our family. This is just one of many examples of evolutionary differences between males and females.

Put it this way, from Darwin we got survival of the fittest. Random mutations happen and if they are an advantage they stay around,'if not they die off. Without society and science to cheat biology gay people and the gay gene would cease to exist because they can't reproduce. No matter how many times you say it is not homosexuality is abnormal. Doesn't mean it's wrong, just abnormal.

And the thing about kids is this: little kids shouldn't be exploring sexuality,gay or straight. little straight kids can't go around exploring sexuality, but as soon as they say there gay we are supposed to accept them acting inappropriately. And no I'm not protecting all kids and women, just mine. No matter how you put it a lil boy has an unfair physical advantage and it wouldn't be fair for him to compete against my daughter. I never said anybody should were a star of David that's ridiculous.

You speak of prejudice but you are the one who prejudged me. You took my opinion and made a judgment on the type of person you think I am and responded to your own made up views of me instead what I actually said.

Again gay people should have the same rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be persecuted for disagreeing because we all have a right to an opinion.
 

duncanthetall

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I support anyone who is trying to gain basic human rights. I have been to a couple rallies that my sister was involved in. I was part of Gay Straight Alliance in high school. Because that kind of thing just seems like the thing you're supposed to do in this world. I don't like people being oppressed, whatsoever. The gay actions of kissing, fukking and what not are gross to me, of course. But love is love. fukk it, man. Long as they're not trying to gay marry me or cause harm to other people, I don't see what the big deal is.

I don't really see a gay agenda. Its just more open than it was in the past because people are less ignorant and less judgmental about that kind of shyt across the board. Why the fukk is it such a big deal? I don't think anyone is forcing the gay on you. Its just out there.

538324_420048318029598_1276452492_n.jpg
 

TrueEpic08

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You took everything I said and decided I was lying or didn't really believe what I typed. How can we have an intelegent conversation if you are just gonna say "no your lying you don't really believe that" i have no reason to lie on the Internet if I felt like I needed to lie I would just log off.

With that said I will again address all of the assumptions you made about me. Sounds like you are the one that is intolerant, you are intolerant of others opinions.

I've done no such thing. I never said anything about you not believing what you typed. All I said was just because you typed it and believed it doesn't mean that it was true. I never made any judgments about your character, just about what you typed.

And here you go making judgments about me right after you complain about me doing the same to you. If I've said it once on here, I've said it endlessly: If you're not going to argue in good faith (or at least without ad hominem attacks), what reason do I have to argue with you?

You say I have a problem with how they carry themselves. People have a problem with how I carry myself, that's ok that is their opinion they are free to have one. Travin Martin was shot and is still being persecuted for the way he carried himself. Society does this and if I'm subject to it gay people should too. I didn't say they where unnatural I said biologically they are abnormal which is true. There are one eyed fish in the wild it doesn't make them normal. They are different from the norm or abnormal. Also I never said I had a problem with the very nature of being transgendered, I don't know whos posts you are reading but they are not mine.

You said this:

Mufukka gone say "transgendered women are just as beautiful as real women" fukk that, you he man bytches is ugly and confused. How dare you say you are just as beautiful as my wife, daughter,mother, shyts disrespectful.

And this:

shyts crazy, they say they want to be a "normal"'part of society then go out of their way to distance themselves from the rest of us. On one hand they want to be treated equally but when somebody criticizes them they wanna yell discrimination.

And this:

Everybody else has to use discretion as to how they act in public. I can't act the same way in public as i do in private. If i do some weird shyt in public I expect people to react to it. Gay people want to be immune to this, I am free to make my on choices and others are free to have an opinion. Gay people want to be able to make their own choices but nobody is supposed to have an opinion about it. If this were Greece in 200bc faggs wouldn't be running around dressed like chicks and acting all flamboyant. They would be normal citizens doing normal things and their sexuality wouldn't mater. I have nonproblem with gay people who live normal lives and are not pushing the gay agenda to the rest if the world. But it's the ones that act like I'm somehow wrong or less of a person cause i dont agree with it that i have a problem with. If they want to be a normal part of society than they have to accept everything society gives good and bad. I know I do

And this:

With that said I only care about them when they affect my life. Putting dudes in the same category as women just cause get got surgery is wrong, and if we allow it to happen it will affect me, my kids, my family. What happens when a lil boy wants to dress in drag, and takes my daughters spot on the softball team. Am I supposed to accept that. Oh well he "feels" like a girl so we should just ignore biology and let him play against the little girls. fukk that. If you want to be gay that's fine but the rest of us don't have to ignore the norms of biology.

And that was just from your first 4 posts. All regarding the problems you have with GLBT's carrying themselves and the limitations that you believe that they should have in order to be accepted in the general society. The fact that you made that comment about men marrying TS women and thinking that they were actual men, as well as what you said about TS women playing sports speaks to my point about your problems with the very nature of TS identity construction.

And no I wouldn't think a white history teacher can tell me about my experiences just like I couldn't tell him about his. And yes there are blacks that would know nothing about the struggle and you seem like one yourself. And I am not having a debate about homosexuality I am having a debate about my views as a heterosexual in a changing world.

Yet another disrespectful assumption about character. Anyway:

1). That attitude in the first sentence is extremely close-minded.
2). That debate regards GLBTs and the way that they portray themselves in society. Therefore, you are talking about homosexuality.

When did I say they should get limited rights? I said they should have ALL the rights I have. I never said they couldn't dress how they wanted to, I didn't say they couldn't cross gender lines or had to define themselves man or woman. I said that I shouldn't be persecuted for disagreeing . Gay people judge me everyday ,are they wrong or hateful if they disagree with my actions or my lifestyle choices. I never said they shouldn't interact with me and my family, I even said that I have conversations and interactions with gay people on a friendly basis. And I can't dress how I want, I have to dress in what is exceptable by society. I can't walk around in my boxers because somebody might take offense. I don't have a problem with anything anybody wears and I never said I did. In fact I think we all should have more freedom in that regard.

Read what you wrote about Transsexuals in the quoted posts. Specifically, read what you said about marriage and transsexuals to answer your own question about whether you said anything about disliking them crossing gender lines. And read what you said in the second post of yours I quoted about gays that adhere to the "gay agenda" (whatever the fukk that is...) and how they should just accept society's view of them. That's a patent limitation on their right to represent themselves as they wish. Nobody's talking about dressing in your boxers or anything, I'm just talking about them dressing as they wish without being called "flamers" or whatever slur.

The difference in the struggle of minorities and gays are history and the ability to chose your place in society. I understand if being gay is genetic, but you can make it through a day with no one knowing you are gay, you shouldn't HAVE to but you can. You can gain rights you don't have by playing along with society.(again it's not necessarily right but society is fukked up as we all know" I cant change or hide my skin. I will be discriminated against for the rest of my life and there us nothing I can do about it.

The bolded is ridiculously untrue, one that the struggles of Blacks, former colonized peoples, women and many, many others (including gays) bear out.

And again with the restrictions: so they don't have the right to proclaim their sexuality openly at any time if they so choose? You see where I gleaned my interpretations from?

In society we all have a right to make our choices and others have the right to agree or disagree with those choices. Gay people would like to make those choices but people are not allowed have an opinion on them. And I know there is no evil gay empire pushing the "gay agenda" the term is just my way of explaining how I see the world. Never said I wanted to call gay people out of their name. I repect everybody, it is alot of gay people who are disrespectful and intolerant. As of right now you are being intolerant of my right to an opinion. Because I don't agree with SOME of the things gay people do you frame me as a mean hateful intolerant person. This is my big problem with the so called gay agenda, my opinion makes me a bad person but you can agree or disagree with whatever you want without consequence. And yes there are biological differences that outline our rolls as humans, men are naturally stronger and more aggressive evolutionarily this is so we can defend our family. This is just one of many examples of evolutionary differences between males and females.

Would you like somebody to have an opinion on you being Black? Or not acting "Black" (one that has been levied against me by a lot of people, including you in your last post, obliquely)? It's a patent disrespect against who you are as a human being. It's not that you can't have an opinion, it's just that I find your opinion disrespectful to GLBTs. I'm not trying to slander you as a person, hell, you could be a pretty nice guy and I'd STILL call it disrespectful.

And if you know that "the gay agenda" is some nebulous construct, why do you keep carelessly using the terms and propagating the ideologies behind those terms? It's thoughtless.

And the bolded? Another ad hominem. I never said anything about you being mean or hateful. Your opinions are pretty standard for American male society, so you're not any more intolerant than that. And you have every right to an opinion, just as I have a right to call it intolerant. As for the "without consequence" oart, I believe nothing of the sort. I'm just not going to let it stop me from writing or voicing my thoughts.

And are men stronger and more aggressive? Yes. Is it to protect the family? Not genetically. That's a societal interpretation of the purpose of that increased strength and aggression. My whole point about male/female differences are about societal coding of the male and female bodies, not in any genetic differences. I KNOW that there are genetic differences there already.

Continued...
 
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