illmatic: lyrical masterpiece or fraud?

[Consigliere]

If I grant you that for the sake of discussion (I dont feel like going through the songs cuz the game is on) we still have to address that those rhymes as you stated are forced and awkward which is actually worse than not having them at all. Then when you put it into the context that I was listening to Twista in '94 this discussion about naS pushing that bar in '94 becomes silly.



his writing so much better than naS' in 94 using any metric. So illmatic just wasnt impressive

Nas had the homefield advantage. Of course there were other rappers doing some of what he was doing. If Twista was from NY he woulda gotten a lot more respect. There were a lot of rappers who've came and went that didnt get their proper respect.

Even though Illmatic is one of my favorite albums, I'm not gonna argue that nobodies ever came harder lyrically. Thats why I think this thread is worthy of a real response. Too many fans rate music they've never heard based on what somebody else said about it. Thats why most of this board thinks IWW is better than Illmatic. Illmatic was one of the last pure NY classic records. IWW is more familiar in terms of mafioso content & slick Trackmasters production all the way down to the R&B hook on If I Ruled the World. All the things that old school purists hate, modern day fans embrace and look for when rating music.

 

[intilectual recipricol]

Yea I did ignore that lol. I will agree he is using a similarly complex rhyme scheme and multis, and he does have some nice metaphors in there too. So you may be right, Nas wasn't 100% unique at that time with what he was doing. That still doesn't take away from the impressiveness of Nas' album - and I think Nas' delivery and overall music just sounds better. Plus that song isn't saying anything more than any Nas song. Although that album by Twista did come out after Illmatic (6 months later), and I'm not hearing quite the same complexity on his first album.

Released in 94, it was written in 92 and 93 and the writing is infinitely better than the writing on illmatic. If you cant acknowledge that there is no point in discussing. Everything youre giving naS credit for Twista did better in 94. And I'm not trying to give T the credit for changing rap. I'm just sayin that what naS is getting credit for he shouldnt and he wasnt doing it better either.

 

[Kaypain]

Can't believe I read this entire thread while watching the Buckeyes game.

 

[intilectual recipricol]

Nas had the homefield advantage. Of course there were other rappers doing some of what he was doing. If Twista was from NY he woulda gotten a lot more respect. There were a lot of rappers who've came and went that didnt get their proper respect.

Even though Illmatic is one of my favorite albums, I'm not gonna argue that nobodies ever came harder lyrically. Thats why I think this thread is worthy of a real response. Too many fans rate music they've never heard based on what somebody else said about it. Thats why most of this board thinks IWW is better than Illmatic. Illmatic was one of the last pure NY classic records. IWW is more familiar in terms of mafioso content & slick Trackmasters production all the way down to the R&B hook on If I Ruled the World. All the things that old school purists hate, modern day fans embrace and look for when rating music.

fair enough. I like IWW better because you have less of the forced stuff you mentioned and the songs were more coherent. Even if you take Lauren Hill off the classic, the verses were still penned great. They actually portrayed full thoughts and ideas, not empty "whether or not I get airplay I still drink E&J in the stairway" type bars. IWW was just more thought out IMO.

 

[MINT]

illmatic is a perfect album, flawless in every imaginable way

 

[Prae]

Released in 94, it was written in 92 and 93 and the writing is infinitely better than the writing on illmatic. If you cant acknowledge that there is no point in discussing. Everything youre giving naS credit for Twista did better in 94. And I'm not trying to give T the credit for changing rap. I'm just sayin that what naS is getting credit for he shouldnt and he wasnt doing it better either.

They both sound pretty equal to me. You saying it's infinitely better just makes me think you have an agenda out for Nas. The same thing you're ragging on Nas for - not really saying anything with and just rhyming a bunch of words together - is the exact same thing I'm seeing Twista doing. But it does seem like that album by Twista is probably way under-appreciated.

You certainly do have an argument against the idea that Nas was completely unique with that he was doing though. But still Nas was from NYC hence more attention, and his album did come out first, like it or not. So while Twista may have been writing his album at the same time - Nas was the first time people really heard that style. As I said before I don't think you can say Twista's first albums is as fair of a comparison, because it just doesn't seem as good or complex to me.

Literally not saying anything more than Nas is on this for example, and seems to be just throwing in rhymes at some points.

You can't ignore this, vocals get omnivorous, catch rigor mortis, the trigger for this is the chorus, my guns are cordless.
Or is, my strategy's agony make a star battle be tragedy?
The majesty leaves nikkas dead as car batteries.
Them raggedy, rappers get ripped when the mic marauder chokes, thinkin' tomorrow's hope, but death is in your horoscope.
When my horror scopes, pages travel space ages, stages, I work 'em wise, when hype is on microphones I circumsize.

 

[mikishere]

classic thread

 

[intilectual recipricol]

They both sound pretty equal to me. You saying it's infinitely better just makes me think you have an agenda out for Nas. The same thing you're ragging on Nas for - not really saying anything with and just rhyming a bunch of words together - is the exact same thing I'm seeing Twista doing. But it does seem like that album by Twista is probably way under-appreciated.

You certainly do have an argument against the idea that Nas was completely unique with that he was doing though. But still Nas was from NYC hence more attention, and his album did come out first. So while Twista may have been writing his album at the same time - Nas was the first time people really heard that style. As I said before I don't think you can say Twista's first albums is as fair of a comparison, because it just doesn't seem as good or complex to me.

Literally not saying anything more than Nas is on this for example. And I'd even argue he is jumping around on his subjects a bit more.

Okay fair. Which track are you talking about? Look at how many more rhymes hes puttin in his bars... And I think he stayed on topic a lot more. And while I'm at it, Treach is another rapper who in 94 was doing similar things as Twista, thats why the beef popped off. LL was spittin too.

By IWW naS had cleaned that up though.

 

[MINT]

op is

 

[Consigliere]

fair enough. I like IWW better because you have less of the forced stuff you mentioned and the songs were more coherent. Even if you take Lauren Hill off the classic, the verses were still penned great. They actually portrayed full thoughts and ideas, not empty "whether or not I get airplay I still drink E&J in the stairway" type bars. IWW was just more thought out IMO.

Agree 100% with this. How would you compare the lyrics on IWW to Reasonable Doubt or Doe or Die?

 

[MINT]

the lyrics on illmatic >>>>>> everything else
Only emniem came close to that greatness

 

[intilectual recipricol]

Agree 100% with this. How would you compare the lyrics on IWW to Reasonable Doubt or Doe or Die?

naS is best when telling a story. Theyre usually straight forward but vivid and eloquent on IWW. I consider that a skill but I find RD to do that similarly but with an added layer of doubles, puns, and sarcasm that isnt found on IWW. I consider RD in my top 5 albums. IWW is 10-15. As for Doe or Die I never listened to the whole thing so I prefer not to act like i have. I actually own 9Lives and Aziatic, but I never listened to them much. AZ is a good rapper but doesnt captivate me much.

 

[Mastamimd]

fakkit ass @intilectual recipricol

yeah I called you out

 

[Consigliere]

naS is best when telling a story. Theyre usually straight forward but vivid and eloquent on IWW. I consider that a skill but I find RD to do that similarly but with an added layer of doubles, puns, and sarcasm that isnt found on IWW. I consider RD in my top 5 albums. IWW is 10-15. As for Doe or Die I never listened to the whole thing so I prefer not to act like i have. I actually own 9Lives and Aziatic, but I never listened to them much. AZ is a good rapper but doesnt captivate me much.

You're missing out if you haven't sat and listened to Doe or Die all the way through. Doe or Die + Ready to Die + OB4CL = IWW.

And I could see how you'd be a Lupe stan. I know he says IWW is his favorite album, but a lot of Lu's raps sound like RD on steroids; puns and double entendres.

 

[dunkman6]

op is

Why do nikkas get so defensive when a ''classic'' album/song is broken down and the result isn't the popular opinion?