If Bernard Hopkins beats Kovalev and Stevenson, he's higher on the ATG list than both Pac and Floyd

[krackdagawd]

Part of me hates going in on Roy like this he gave me an autograph when I was a lil nikka

Spoiler

That ain't going to blind me from the facts though

 

[Master Teacher]

The lost to calzaghe prevents bhop getting ahead
funny things bhop in recent years seems to have better cardio which is
why he lost to the welshman in the first place
everything he does now just makes calzaghe look better he didnt want no parts of a rematch though

 

[ℒℴѵℯJay ELECTUA]

The lost to calzaghe prevents bhop getting ahead
funny things bhop in recent years seems to have better cardio which is
why he lost to the welshman in the first place
everything he does now just makes calzaghe look better he didnt want no parts of a rematch though

so what about the taylor fights?

 

[krackdagawd]

The lost to calzaghe prevents bhop getting ahead
funny things bhop in recent years seems to have better cardio which is
why he lost to the welshman in the first place
everything he does now just makes calzaghe look better he didnt want no parts of a rematch though

He ain't lose to no Claslappy

We counting shots that don't land now?

We ignoring hard shots that drop nikkas now?

Had BHop not made those "white boy" comments he would have got the decision.

 

[Master Teacher]

so what about the taylor fights?

Like the article said he embarrassed kelly pavlik so it made up for this calzaghe retired before bhop could redeem that lost

 

[krackdagawd]

so what about the taylor fights?

He whooped the guy who stopped him.

 

[NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong]

I respect the source but that list is a bit suspect

Don't agree with the placement of everybody on that list... Chavez, Conn & Sweet Pea are rated too high.

Pac, Morales, Foreman & De La Hoya are rated too low.

Tyson & Trinidad aren't even on the list.

But best believe... the guy who put together the list would put most people's boxing knowledge to shame. I've had several conversations with him over the years. And he didn't do it on his own. He had alot of input and it took several months to put the list together.

What do you find "suspect" about the list though

Yeah, I mentioned that I respect the source completely and wouldn't ever claim to know more, there are just a few things that seem weird on there.

Like you said, glaring omissions are Tyson and Trinidad..and I happen to agree specifically about Sweet Pea being too high. Im not downplaying Pea's ability and give credit to him for such a ridiculous amount of amateur fights etc..I just don't think he is a top 20 ATG.

Another thing that caught my eye is PBF and Manny being ranked right next to each other.. seems like there is some sort of agenda behind that.

No Joe Frazier or Foreman in the top 50?

Plus I think Hagler is too low. I'm a borderline stan of his but he should be higher than 34 and I think he is Top 20. He beat Duran (10th) and Hearns (41) and I scored him over Sugar Ray (16) (Im going to re-watch again and maybe make a thread on it EDIT: nvm missed the thread on it in september) ...plus his overall resume is really unfukkwittable.

Generally, these historians give too much credit to the early early boxers. I mean I know they do their homework and know their shyt but there is barely any footage on a bunch of these guys. Burley's last fight was in 1950..I mean gimme a break. Don't get me wrong, I respect the forefathers and everything but let's be realistic..

 

[krackdagawd]

Low key we need to have a boxing memorabilia thread soon. I got a few things that would make the hardcore brehs go

 

[LauderdaleBoss]

Barerra for Pac.

Floyd

MAB is a great win for PAC no doubt n PAC was the underdog too, but mab wasnt storming thru divisions kicking ass n taking names like Tito was. At one point Tito was looked at as the most devastating puncher in boxing. He was without a doubt more of a threat than mab. I'll say this though. Mabs win over hamed is in the same vein as Hopkins win over Tito. Manny gets mad props for destroying the man who beat the most dangerous of the little men.

And your right Floyd doesn't have that type of victory although corrales comes close. It's just that Chico didn't have the type of scalps that Tito n mab had at the time of his defeat. He got them afterwards in cassanayor,freitas, and Castillo.

 

[Majestic Pape]

It really depends on how you rate these things. Is it by peak performance or overall careers and longevity? If it's the latter than Bernard has an INCREDIBLE argument. If it's by peak performance, I have Roy Jones rated as the best of the last two generations and Mayweather second.

 

[H.I.M.]

Hopkins was only in his prime when Roy beat him huh, dealing with timetables again.

By just about every measure, B-hop was in his RELATIVE prime during the 1st fight. As was Roy. But neither had yet peaked. Both would hit their peak at around the same time (96-2002).

B-Hop doesn't have one single win even close on his resume as Roy has over him.

Competitive fight?

Top 3 in a trash division?

He whooped Roy's ass and Roy couldn't even get a rematch because he was caught cheating, AGAIN.

Did you even watch the fight breh?

Roy took 3-4 rounds off Lebedev and should've been credited with a knockdown at the end of the 10th, which would've probably saved him from that horrific KO.

He would've lost by split descision and been a point away from actually taking the fight.

And you seriously can't believe that Cloud, Shemenov & Murat are better than Lebedev.

Even Pascal is only just barely better than Lebedev.

A blown up out of shape Middleweight fighting top Cruiserweights in his mid-40's is alot more difficult than a natural Light Heavyweight fighting top Light Heavyweights in his late 40's.

We would have to assume B-Hop isn't able to compete with top Cruiserweights which is why he's not up there fighting them, even though he's naturally bigger than Roy.

Could Hopkins beat a James Toney who had to get an IV because he was so dehydrated from making weight? YES.

He wouldn't be able to do so (or we would have to assume) because he hasn't beaten anybody on Prime Toney's level in his entire 26 year career.

And Toney had issues making weight his entire Middleweight/Super-Middleweight career. This is a natural 190-200 lb'er who his training staff somehow managed to squeeze into a Middleweight/Super-Middleweight frame. Still didn't stop him from putting on some of the best peformances of his career in those weight classes. Including arguably one of his best ever earlier that year against Tim Littles while having some of the same "weight problems".

Are we forgetting that at the time of Roy-Hopkins I, Roy had issues making Middleweight and had moved up to Super-Middleweight, but drained himself back down to 160 to easily outbox Hopkins (with a fractured hand) to capture the Middleweight title?

Maybe if he used roids to get to heavy like Roy did he would.

What "Roids" did Roy use?

You do realize that there's nothing really abnormal about having a 6:1 testosterone ratio for any athlete in just about any sport?

If that fight were he tested "postive" had happened in Neveda, you do realize nothing would've happened?

For all we know, Hopkins, Mayweather, Pac etc. could be registering at the 6:1 testosterone ratio... and if they did, NOTHING would be reported about it because it's not illegal.

Tarver whooped that ass. and cemented the deal in the rematch. The same Tarver who got his soul taken by BHop.

Roy still beat him... and clearly. While practically a shot, weight drained, dried up corpse.

Has Hopkins ever dropped 20 lbs & two weight divisions and beat the #1 rated fighter in said division?

 

[H.I.M.]

MAB is a great win for PAC no doubt n PAC was the underdog too, but mab wasnt storming thru divisions kicking ass n taking names like Tito was. At one point Tito was looked at as the most devastating puncher in boxing. He was without a doubt more of a threat than mab. I'll say this though. Mabs win over hamed is in the same vein as Hopkins win over Tito. Manny gets mad props for destroying the man who beat the most dangerous of the little men.

And your right Floyd doesn't have that type of victory although corrales comes close. It's just that Chico didn't have the type of scalps that Tito n mab had at the time of his defeat. He got them afterwards in cassanayor,freitas, and Castillo.

Not discounting B-Hop's win over Tito, because Tito had proved his capability in the division by walking thru Joppy (who was rated #2 at the time in the division) as if he was a Journeyman... But Barrerra was alot more accomplished in the division where Pac beat him, than Tito was at Middleweight when B-Hop beat him. Probably overall a greater boxer as well. Which is why i rate the win a little bit higher.

I have Pac CLEARLY ahead of B-Hop, greatness wise. And Floyd & B-Hop neck & neck.

 

[LauderdaleBoss]

When nikkas say Hopkins wasn't in his prime against Roy it's usually to deflect from the dominating performance Roy put on.

Both fighters were in their physical primes. Where they at their best skill wise? No, not quite yet, but close enough to the point where we can see what type of fighters they would evolve into later in their careers.

I'll even try to break it down a lil better.
Another example is looking at Abner Mares and his fight with Perez that ended up being a draw. Dude was in his physical prime at the time, but he was still coming into his own skill wise. He evolved during the fights with Vic and the 1st Agbeko fight. I wouldn't say he hit his peak (physical prime and skill prime coming together) until the 2nd Agbeko fight. After that he was just storming through top fighters until he got knocked out by Jhonny Gonzales. You can't discount the close razor thin performances in his fights with Perez, Darchiniyan, and Agbeko 1 by saying he wasn't in his prime. He was in his physical prime. It's not his opponents fault that his skill set didn't reach it's peak yet. Beside those dudes had world class experience over him anyways.

Both Roy and Hopkins had much better performances after they fought each other the first time. They both evolved into ATGs. It's just that when they met the 1st time. Roy was the better man and closer to reaching his peak. nikkas act like the Roy Jones that KO'ed Hill was the one that Hopkins fought.

 

[Gizza]

By just about every measure, B-hop was in his RELATIVE prime during the 1st fight. As was Roy. But neither had yet peaked. Both would hit their peak at around the same time (96-2002).

B-Hop doesn't have one single win even close on his resume as Roy has over him.



Did you even watch the fight breh?

Roy took 3-4 rounds off Lebedev and should've been credited with a knockdown at the end of the 10th, which would've probably saved him from that horrific KO.

He would've lost by split descision and been a point away from actually taking the fight.

And you seriously can't believe that Cloud, Shemenov & Murat are better than Lebedev.

Even Pascal is only just barely better than Lebedev.

A blown up out of shape Middleweight fighting top Cruiserweights in his mid-40's is alot more difficult than a natural Light Heavyweight fighting top Light Heavyweights in his late 40's.

We would have to assume B-Hop isn't able to compete with top Cruiserweights which is why he's not up there fighting them, even though he's naturally bigger than Roy.





He wouldn't be able to do so (or we would have to assume) because he hasn't beaten anybody on Prime Toney's level in his entire 26 year career.

And Toney had issues making weight his entire Middleweight/Super-Middleweight career. This is a natural 190-200 lb'er who his training staff somehow managed to squeeze into a Middleweight/Super-Middleweight frame. Still didn't stop him from putting on some of the best peformances of his career in those weight classes. Including arguably one of his best ever earlier that year against Tim Littles while having some of the same "weight problems".

Are we forgetting that at the time of Roy-Hopkins I, Roy had issues making Middleweight and had moved up to Super-Middleweight, but drained himself back down to 160 to easily outbox Hopkins (with a fractured hand) to capture the Middleweight title?







What "Roids" did Roy use?

You do realize that there's nothing really abnormal about having a 6:1 testosterone ratio for any athlete in just about any sport?

If that fight were he tested "postive" had happened in Neveda, you do realize nothing would've happened?

For all we know, Hopkins, Mayweather, Pac etc. could be registering at the 6:1 testosterone ratio... and if they did, NOTHING would be reported about it because it's not illegal.





Roy still beat him... and clearly. While practically a shot, weight drained, dried up corpse.

Has Hopkins ever dropped 20 lbs & two weight divisions and beat the #1 rated fighter in said division?

Breh

 

[LauderdaleBoss]

Not discounting B-Hop's win over Tito, because Tito had proved his capability in the division by walking thru Joppy (who was rated #2 at the time in the division) as if he was a Journeyman... But Barrerra was alot more accomplished in the division where Pac beat him, than Tito was at Middleweight when B-Hop beat him. Probably overall a greater boxer as well. Which is why i rate the win a little bit higher.

I have Pac CLEARLY ahead of B-Hop, greatness wise. And Floyd & B-Hop neck & neck.

You know I can see where you coming from. I was looking at Tito from a career perspective instead of a weight divisional perspective. Pac beat a guy that was in his best division whereas Hopkins beat a dangerous dude who wasn't in his best division. Tito made his mark at welter. I think his best division was at jr middle, but he didn't campaign there long enough. He destroyed Joppy at middleweight and gave the impression that 160 was made for him when in reality his physicality during fights wasn't the same at that weight. It's not like Joppy was a big middleweight either.

I never looked at it your way before and after your reply I'm able to now. I can no longer put that Tito win higher than that MAB win, but at the same time I can't put the MAB win higher than the Tito victory. I'll just say their about equal. 2 dominating upsets by 2 future ATGs. I can live with that.