IDF ground invasion of Gaza( Israel killed 2,700+ Palestinians) (Hamas is victorious)

[Broke Wave]

Sorry I didn't mean exclusively. My only evidence would be from the IDF so it won't go far on the coli but it makes complete logical sense for me that it's accurate. It really as as simple as you fire or store weapons somewhere, it'll get blown up.

I'm glad you're mature enough to know that the IDF is not a good source in this discussion

Anyway, I dispute that notion that anywhere that shoots rockets should be bombed and it's morally okay once a rocket is fired from there. It simply has to be a difference of opinion. If Hamas terrorists held an Israeli school hostage and fired rockets out of the school, chances are they wouldn't bomb it. They would risk ground forces which they did anyway in Gaza, but not because of the awkward location of rockets or the death toll, but because of the elaborate tunnel system.

 

[ill]

I'm glad you're mature enough to know that the IDF is not a good source in this discussion

Anyway, I dispute that notion that anywhere that shoots rockets should be bombed and it's morally okay once a rocket is fired from there. It simply has to be a difference of opinion. If Hamas terrorists held an Israeli school hostage and fired rockets out of the school, chances are they wouldn't bomb it. They would risk ground forces which they did anyway in Gaza, but not because of the awkward location of rockets or the death toll, but because of the elaborate tunnel system.

If Hamas knows that Israel knows where its stashes are, they are going to move them. The best place is right under Israel's nose and those would be public places like UN buildings, schools, mosques, etc. When the only play Hamas has is international outrage, it fits the criteria perfectly.

 

[Broke Wave]

If Hamas knows that Israel knows where its stashes are, they are going to move them. The best place is right under Israel's nose and those would be public places like UN buildings, schools, mosques, etc. When the only play Hamas has is international outrage, it fits the criteria perfectly.

That to me is another misreading of the situation. Firstly, if you and I now "know" where Hamas stashes are on The Coli, I doubt that the IDF doesn't know where they are. The IDF has no problem bombing suspected stashes which happen to double as schools mosques etc. So the location of the stash is in erroneous because it doesn't really matter where the stash is, Israel will bomb it and blame Hamas for putting the stash there. This is me being very generous to Israel, as I'm giving them a 100% accuracy rate for the location of the stashes in relation to their bombs. I'm giving you that every time Israel bombs a UN school or something like that, there is 100% a stash in there. Even from this un provable and fantasy position, Israel's bombing of stashes regardless of where they are or their quantity or launch sites, given the mobility of these launch sites and stashes, is still abhorrent and a war crime.

 

[ill]

That to me is another misreading of the situation. Firstly, if you and I now "know" where Hamas stashes are on The Coli, I doubt that the IDF doesn't know where they are. The IDF has no problem bombing suspected stashes which happen to double as schools mosques etc. So the location of the stash is in erroneous because it doesn't really matter where the stash is, Israel will bomb it and blame Hamas for putting the stash there. This is me being very generous to Israel, as I'm giving them a 100% accuracy rate for the location of the stashes in relation to their bombs. I'm giving you that every time Israel bombs a UN school or something like that, there is 100% a stash in there. Even from this un provable and fantasy position, Israel's bombing of stashes regardless of where they are or their quantity or launch sites, given the mobility of these launch sites and stashes, is still abhorrent and a war crime.

If you're 'giving' me all of that, how can you call it a war crime to bomb places where your enemy is storing weapons or engaging in war from?

 

[Broke Wave]

If you're 'giving' me all of that, how can you call it a war crime to bomb places where your enemy is storing weapons or engaging in war from?

We'll let the UNHRC decide what really happened. Everyone on Earth except fascists, theocracies, North Korea and other unscrupulous governments actually respect the international communities various investigations.

Off the bat I can tell you that collective punishment, which includes the bombing of generators, and the killing of non combatants, which includes the killing of Hamas civilian administrators, are two clear war crimes. We will have to let the investigation commence.

 

[ill]

We'll let the UNHRC decide what really happened. Everyone on Earth except fascists, theocracies, North Korea and other unscrupulous governments actually respect the international communities various investigations.

Off the bat I can tell you that collective punishment, which includes the bombing of generators, and the killing of non combatants, which includes the killing of Hamas civilian administrators, are two clear war crimes. We will have to let the investigation commence.

Oh, I'm sure Israel has done things against international law. I'm not saying they stayed in-bounds the whole time. I'm only talking about peoples outrage to mosques, schools, and UN buildings that got bombed because they were launching grounds for attacks. My response was targeted directly at @Kritic's post about why Warren is defending Israeli's right to bomb those places.

 

[Broke Wave]

Oh, I'm sure Israel has done things against international law. I'm not saying they stayed in-bounds the whole time. I'm only talking about peoples outrage to mosques, schools, and UN buildings that got bombed because they were launching grounds for attacks. My response was targeted directly at @Kritic's post about why Warren is defending Israeli's right to bomb those places.

So in your opinion is it enough for a school or nursery to have a single rocket to be liable to be flattened? Or is there any scale or proportion?

 

[ill]

So in your opinion is it enough for a school or nursery to have a single rocket to be liable to be flattened? Or is there any scale or proportion?

Yes. One single rocket is grounds to be attacked. If its not, then Hamas can shoot "one" rocket from each building in Gaza and have no repercussions. Why is it on Israel to discriminate where it bombs when Hamas is indiscriminate in its choosing of places to launch attacks from?

It should be on the Palestinians in Gaza to thwart Hamas attacks from their public places. It is after all, Palestinian property that they are using to conduct attacks. The civilians suffer the consequences of Hamas' actions when Hamas launches from public places.

 

[Broke Wave]

Yes. One single rocket is grounds to be attacked. If its not, then Hamas can shoot "one" rocket from each building in Gaza and have no repercussions. Why is it on Israel to discriminate where it bombs when Hamas is indiscriminate in its choosing of places to launch attacks from?

It should be on the Palestinians in Gaza to thwart Hamas attacks from their public places. It is after all, Palestinian property that they are using to conduct attacks. The civilians suffer the consequences of Hamas' actions when Hamas launches from public places.

If it is a school, it's up to the teachers and children to swarm the armed gunmen and disarm their rockets? Just so we're clear, if Israel has knowledge that even one militant or rocket is inside a nursery or hospital, it is okay to destroy the hospital?

 

[ill]

If it is a school, it's up to the teachers and children to swarm the armed gunmen and disarm their rockets? Just so we're clear, if Israel has knowledge that even one militant or rocket is inside a nursery or hospital, it is okay to destroy the hospital?

Those armed gunmen are putting those innocent lives at risk. I don't know what you want me to say about that other than its not exactly Israel's fault that such shytty humans can use places like schools as their launching grounds.

As for the second part, it depends. Is he actively launching rockets/shooting weapons? If so, then yes. If he's a high-value target, then yes. If he's some bottom feeder of the organization thats just hanging out and not actively shooting anything, then no.

 

[Broke Wave]

Those armed gunmen are putting those innocent lives at risk. I don't know what you want me to say about that other than its not exactly Israel's fault that such shytty humans can use places like schools as their launching grounds.

As for the second part, it depends. Is he actively launching rockets/shooting weapons? If so, then yes. If he's a high-value target, then yes. If he's some bottom feeder of the organization thats just hanging out and not actively shooting anything, then no.

You can't bounce around from one side to another, friend. You say that it's okay if he is shooting weapons and rockets, but if hes a bottom feeder not shooting it's not okay? So depending on Israel's classification of said "militant", it is okay to condemn the innocent children inside to death due to his mere presence, or the presence of rockets?

Like I said, there is no right or wrong answer. We'll just have to disagree on the morality. In my view, it is totally immoral to use bombs to level schools and shelters full of civilians to stop the firing of ineffectual and inaccurate rockets. The fact that Israel is using unguided artillery shells and conventional shelling to me shows the indiscriminate nature of the bombing. Artillery shells have no guarantee on where they land, unlike the glossy HD videos of airstrikes. By using unguided munitions, Israel is implicitly endangering the lives of civilians who may not even be unfortunate enough to be beside a militant or fighter or anyone.

 

[ill]

You can't bounce around from one side to another, friend. You say that it's okay if he is shooting weapons and rockets, but if hes a bottom feeder not shooting it's not okay? So depending on Israel's classification of said "militant", it is okay to condemn the innocent children inside to death due to his mere presence, or the presence of rockets?

Like I said, there is no right or wrong answer. We'll just have to disagree on the morality. In my view, it is totally immoral to use bombs to level schools and shelters full of civilians to stop the firing of ineffectual and inaccurate rockets. The fact that Israel is using unguided artillery shells and conventional shelling to me shows the indiscriminate nature of the bombing. Artillery shells have no guarantee on where they land, unlike the glossy HD videos of airstrikes. By using unguided munitions, Israel is implicitly endangering the lives of civilians who may not even be unfortunate enough to be beside a militant or fighter or anyone.

If Osama Bin Laden was the only terrorist inside that school and he was just chilling, it would be fully justified in my mind to bomb that school even if there were kids inside.

 

[Broke Wave]

If Osama Bin Laden was the only terrorist inside that school and he was just chilling, it would be fully justified in my mind to bomb that school even if there were kids inside.

Okay if it is okay to intentionally kill civilians, is it okay to blow up buses in Israel if I have certainty that it'll lead to the end of the blockade? As certain as you are in your hypothetical in that situation that Bin Laden is a terrorist and in the building, lets say I believe with the same conviction that the only way to end the occupation is to kill innocent Israelis, does that also make it okay?

 

[Kritic]

There is no evidence to suggest this

You're making an absolutist claim that they ran out of places to store weapons and put them in schools/shelters. While there are some isolated incidents where this has happened, the onus would be on you to prove your claim, as I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that they exclusively use such places to store their weapons, which is what you're claiming.

i didn't think elizabeth warren would say what she said. i thought she was one of us. she's part of the establishment or pretending to be atm.

 

[Broke Wave]

i didn't think elizabeth warren would say what she said. i thought she was one of us. she's part of the establishment or pretending to be atm.

Nobody can oppose AIPAC at this stage in the game. theres a great thread and article recently about AIPAC losing their influence and their conflicts with Obama, but to me it just shows how strong they are. Theyre bossing up to the executive branch who they feel arent right wing enough. That's power