How the autobiography of a Muslim slave is challenging an American narrative

HarlemHottie

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Sounds like a huge reach.

Picking out one of the many terms that europeans have used to refer to black people, black muslims, and/or certain ethnic groups at one point in history which has had a variety of different meanings in different places & time periods, like moors, and calling ourselves that today would make about as much sense as calling ourselves guineas or ethiopians.

Legally, the term "moor" has even less meaning. That's just MSTA/sovereign citizen mumbo jumbo.
I actually don't think it's such a reach. According to posts in this thread, the Spanish didn't want Muslim slaves because they viewed them as Moors. Moor obviously evolved into a synonym for 'black Muslims.' The US government treated with Moors as equals. Morocco was the first country to recognize our independence. Etc.

There's context we're missing bc we haven't put all the history together.

edit: Also, if you really think about it, we were treated differently than other slave populations. More like prisoners of war than 'traditional', historical slaves. I'm very familiar with Greek and Roman slavery. I could argue that African slaves everywhere but here were treated more like slaves of old. Is it bc we had the highest Muslim population? Idk, but it's definitely worth considering.
 

HarlemHottie

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There's context we're missing bc we haven't put all the history together.
@Supper, See? There's a lot WE don't currently know, but THEY damn sure knew in the 1500's.

Got some juicy info. Especially for those who claim people of West African descent had nothing to do with the Moors. Apparently there was this dynasty called Banu Ghaniya or people/ Children of Ghana who were apart of the Almoravid dynasty and ruled SPAIN!

Banu Ghaniya - Wikipedia


So I'm guessing thus dynasty was a mixture of Sonniki(Ghanaian), Sanhaja and Lamtuna. Their dynasty founder was none other than Muhammad ibn Ali ibn Yusuf Ben Ghaniya. Who ruled the Balearic islands of Spain.

So yea people may have to eat their words when they say people of West African descent had zero to do with the Moors.
 

Samori Toure

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@Samori Toure is there any known Arabic or Mande influence on Ebonics/AAVE?

Not Arabic, because they only used Arabic for trade just like the Chinese or the Russians or whomever use English for trade. However, a linguist named Matt Schafer insists that the Mande influence is where we get the Southern accent and other words that are now part of the English language.

"... My first insight into the possibility of significant Mandinka content in the Southern accent occurred in one memorable conversation in Ziguinchor during 1972 with Buli Drame, the Mandinka from Suna Karantaba who guided me to the four villages I emphasized in studying Pakao. We proceeded to converse in French and he asked where I was from. After I told him, he slowly repeated after me, "St. Simons Island," pronouncing the words with such a strong Southern drawl that a chill ran up my spine. After years at college and graduate school away from the South, my own Southern accent had mostly disappeared. Yet Buli pronounced these and [End Page 351] other English words with a strong, seemingly perfect Southern accent, certainly an accent of the Georgia coast where Africanisms of The Gullah Dialect and Drums and Shadows both suggest a strong Mande influx and influence. One can debate how much a coastal Georgia accent resembles variable accents elsewhere in the South, but the accents of Charleston and coastal South Carolina and Georgia, spoken by both slaves and elite whites, were established before much of the inner deep South was settled.

This is not to say that a British accent or accents from African groups other than the Mande are not also present in certain Southern accents. Several informants from the 1930s in Drums and Shadows, from different ethnic groups as far south as Congo, a long way down the coast from Mande groups, note a strange system in which red flags were used, often hoisted onto slave ships anchored close to shore, as a method for attracting and capturing themselves or other unsuspecting children.81 Because these informants would have come from the very end of U.S. slave importation from Africa, Drums and Shadows perhaps implies this wildly random tactic was employed in the latter stages of the trafficking, as demand continued, but African importation into the U.S. had become illicit and, as Kyuk notes, many Congo were imported into Georgia. Buyers during the illegal era clamored for slaves, and slavers were so desperate they would resort to any measure, including red flags, to get captives on board regardless of ethnicity. After 1808 the old system of ethnic preferences in the slave trade began breaking down.

In any event, after that conversation with Buli I began to visualize and hear a heavy Mandinka content in the Gullah accent and thus in the "Southern accent" with all its variety. Pollitzer's slave importation demographics above favoring the Mande regions of Senegambia, Sierra Leone and the Windward Coast during the middle period (1749-87), and his literal analysis of Turner's Africanisms, showing the collective importance of Mande groups in Gullah speech, tends to support the idea of a predominant Mandinka and Mande content in the Southern accent, with the various other accents layered in (even without Mandinka informants identifying additional words, or the concept that the Mande influenced nearby ethnic groups in West Africa). Accent follows the vocabulary and demographics consistent with a Mande preference in Charleston and Georgia.

In various locales in South Carolina and Georgia, slaves so outnumbered white people, it is inconceivable for white English not to have been influenced by a West African accent. Turner noted some sections of South [End Page 352] Carolina where black families outnumbered white families twenty to one.82 Thomas Spalding's grandson, the ex-Confederate Captain Charles Spalding Wylly, wrote that the ratio on Sapelo Island was one hundred slaves to one white person, and asserts that these slaves had close, family-like relationships with their owners, implying close, verbal exchanges. "I have so often referred to the slave that I think it may gratify curiosity to tell in what manner these men and women fresh from Africa would with any safety be taken into the life of the family where in all probability there were not three white men to three hundred of their own race."83 Parrish notes there were 4,000 blacks and only 700 whites in Glynn County in 1845.84 A visitor to South Carolina in 1737 found the area more resembled "a negro country" than one settled by "white people," while the first federal census of 1790 established that 43% of South Carolina population were black slaves, compared to the national average of 18%. While the slave population in America declined to 13% (4,000,000) in 1860, South Carolina's slave population the same year had risen to 57% with even higher concentrations in the influential low country.85

Slave purchasers in the low country slightly preferred Mande not just for their rice farming knowledge and other factors, but once Mande came in sufficient numbers, they could communicate with the Mande slaves already working on plantations. Implying this possibility, Captain Wylly wrote a fascinating memoir detailing a training system for African slaves that is chilling for its racism and deculturization, suggesting a highly non-random process concerning the ethnic groups of slaves, at least for his grandfather, Bilali's owner. Wylly thought he provided a veritable linguistic blueprint for how the African-born slaves were gradually taught English. However, in so doing he inadvertently explains how a Mande accent might very well have entered Southern English, especially through the slave drivers, who were often African born leaders among the slaves, in charge of training the newly imported slaves.

After the African slaves were bought in the Charleston market, "the newly purchased were transferred at once to the plantation. Here always would be found a number of men and women acquired in former years who belonged to the same race, frequently of the same tribe and speaking the same dialect, or at least capable of making themselves understood." The African-born slaves were then assigned in groups of ten to a "driver" or leader "chosen for his ability to command and his fluency in speech."86 [End Page 353]...".

"...Spalding had about 400 slaves at any one time, and during his lifetime gave over 1000 slaves, and the lands they worked on, to his two surviving sons and four married daughters, disseminating the linguistic influence and west-Africanized accent of his system into the Georgia coast and the South, presumably alongside a number of similar examples from other plantations.88

Despite slavery's hodge-podge mixing of ethnic groups from Africa, evidence of a Mande preference among the Gullah finds additional support in the memoir of Sapelo Island's Gullah, or more correctly, Geeche writer Cornelia Bailey, who uses styles of basket-making, "Mende ring shout dancing," linguistic and other evidence to conclude that the Mende from Sierra Leone were a strong ethnic component of the heritage of African-Americans living on Sapelo Island. What Cornelia's people called "fanners"— shallow, flat baskets used for threshing rice—the Mende call fantas.89...".

Project MUSE - Bound to Africa: the Mandinka Legacy in the New World


"... Turner allows us to glimpse the process of Africanized thinking and culture seeping into Southern English and from there into mainstream American English. He forces us to go back and take a second look at American English, and start asking deeper questions about its African content. One west African linguist who has done this was David Dalby, among the earliest to point out that the widespread traditional Mandinka usage of "OK" mirrored its similar usage as one of the most characteristically American words in existence. Therefore, Dalby suggests, the very American expression "OK" must have seen usage first among Mandinka slaves in the South, who passed the expression on to the rest of us.54

In my fieldwork in Pakao, I found the Mandinka expressions OK, OK kuta and OK kuta bake (OK, very OK and very, very OK) to be widely used.55 The Mandinka signature on this expression, accenting heavily the second syllable, and often using the expression with the common Mandinka words kuta and kuta bake, help convince me this is not some absorption from twentieth-century America, but rather a descendant of the African precursor to U.S. usage. Even if a telegraph operator helped put the expression into common usage in America, then the expression could have been reinforced by usage among Mandinka slaves and their descendants, in the kind of cultural convergence already discussed above for mansa and massa. Turner himself does not single out "OK" as one of the Gullah expressions. It was so common he may not have thought to include it.[End Page 344]

However, Turner's discussion of the west African syntax in Gullah speech patterns provides a model for thinking about a west African derivation for other expressions commonly associated with Southern English. The widely used "y'all" may be another example of a cultural convergence, in this case between the English "you all" and the Mandinka "al," meaning "you all," or "y'all" and often followed by a verb. Thus the Mandinka say al ta for "Y'all go" or "Y'all git." They say al ku for "Y'all wash" and al jinan for "Y'all come down here." See this latter expression in Kadri Drame's account of Deskaleri the Mysterious.56 The Mandinka also use fo as their word for "for" in the sense of "until," for example, "I went fo the house" as in Southern diction. In his tale about "The Bwa or Cannibal-witch, Kadri Drame says that djinns "can only harass someone until [fo] their time of death has come."57 Fo also would be an example of a cultural convergence. Several of the Mandinka legends in Djinns, Stars and Warriors also use quotations one after another in rapid fire, preceded by "he said/says" or "I said/say," which was also a feature of Southern storytelling that I heard growing up.

X
The little known ante-bellum memoir of Ophelia Troup Dent of Hofwyl-Broadfield Plantation in Glynn County near Brunswick, Georgia, tells us that her slaves used "My little aunt" to address a wet-nurse of presumably lesser importance and age, and "My big aunt" to address the main female house servant... "

"...In addition to "Mom Betty," the Dent slaves used expressions like "My Big Aunt" and "My Little Aunt;" would they have also said, "my big brother" or "my little brother" or "my big sister" or "my little sister?" Such expressions are in wide use in Southern English. Both Ophelia Troup Dent and her slaves seem to have used "big" and "little" to distinguish kin on the basis of relative age and importance. This was done among the Pakao Mandinka to distinguish between older and younger brothers, sisters, and other relatives with the widely used kinship terms koto or doko, (older or younger sibling). Pakao Mandinka also usually preface their use of kinship words with "my" (n), as in nba or nbama for "my mother" or nkoto for "my big sister, or "my big brother" or ndoko for "my little sister" and "my little brother." "Little" and "big" are west Africanized ways of translating "younger" and "older.""
 

Samori Toure

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The are other points that no one ever talks about in regards to Mande people, which just ends up confusing the Hell out of people. It is just historical stuff for people who may not know who the Mande people are and to the best of my abilities and in as brief a fashion as possible I will try to break it down. For those that already know the history this is regurgitated crap. For those that don't hopefully this will who the Mande people were.

The first point is that all Mande people are Mandinka/Mandingo. Mandinka/Mandenka is actually two words, namely "Manden" and "Ka" (MANDE-NKA).

- "Ka" means people or subjects or citizens of Manden.
- Manden is a place. Manden is Mali, but I am not sure if Mali is a Fulani or an Arab word.

Mandingo/Mandengo means Mandenka. So the "ngo" in Mandingo/Mandego just means people/subjects or citizens of Manden.

Mandenka/Mandingo are also interchangeably referred to as Malinke.

So Manden refers to a place and it also refers to the language that the Manden people speak. Manden is now just referred to as Mande. So when people speak about Mande people they are talking about Mandingos and Mali, because all Mande people are originally from the Empire of Manden/Mali (modern countries of Mauritania, Senegal and Mali).

The next point is that Manden people have different tribal names depending upon where they are. They are called Mandinka, Malinke, Mandingo, Bambara, Soninke, Susu, Ligbi, Mende, Bissa, Marka, Dyula, Kpelle, Vai, Loko, Jakhanke, etc., and they live all over West Africa in the countries of Benin, Burkina Faso, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast, Liberia, Mali, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal and Sierra Leone. However, they are all the same people (Mande) and their migration story starts with them being in Mali and serving a King called a Mansa.
Mandé peoples - Wikipedia

The earliest that Mande people can be placed seems to be in Walata, which is in modern day Mauritania and it is one of if not the oldest stone settlement in all of Africa. The Mande people referred to the city as Biru and it was the Southernmost end of trans-Saharan trade route. The Arab word for Biru appears to be Walata. Walata could have also been the Berber or Fulani name for Biru.
Oualata - Wikipedia

From Walata the Mande founded the Empire of Ghana. That particular group of Mande were the Soninke. After Ghana, the Mande founded the Empire of Mali. After Mali the Mande founded the Empire of Songhay, which was actually the result of some Mande noblemen crossing over and joining forces with the Songhay people to overthrow some Mali Mansas that the noblemen were at odds with. Mali still existed and on top of that many of the rulers of Songhay were Mandingos.

The Mandingos controlled trade over West Africa for hundreds of years through the traders called the Dyula. The Mandingos were also experts at making iron tools and growing crops like rice, indigo and cotton. Where ever the Dyula set up routes there were other Mandingos settled along the trade routes, which is how Mandingos ended up in so many places. Mali then basically imploded and many Mandingoes that had been in Mali went on something called the "Mane Invasion" in around 1580, which was designed to help the Mande (Mane/Manneh) people gain access to the Ocean trade that had sprung up with the arrival of the Europeans on the coast. The invasion was also designed to give the Mandingos access to salt from the sea, which the Mandingos could no longer get from the deserts around Mali because the Songhay leaders now controlled trade with North Africa and had cutoff access to the Mandingos getting salt. So the Mane invasion took Mandingos deeper into Sierra Leone, Guinea, Liberia, Ivory Coast Guinea-Bissau, Senegal and Gambia. Modern Ghana was not a part of the Mane Invasion, but the Mandingos controlled trade routes and cities in Ghana and Burkina Faso.

The Mane Invasion eventually established the Mandingos as the major force towards the coast, but it also put them at odds with the tribes that were already there. Those odds and the Europeans arming the coastal tribes is how and why so many Mandingos ended up in the slave trade. On top of that the Ashanti, Dagomba and Mossi people began enslaving and selling the Mande Muslims in Northern Ghana, Burkina Faso and Ivory Coast. Prior to that period the Mandingos had fairly good relations with those other groups and the Mandingos had even provided education to many Ashanti leaders and their children. Of course the Europeans wanted the Mandingos as slaves, because of the skills outlined above and it is believed that at least 1/3 of all Mandingos ended up in slavery.

Culturally the Mandingos had musical instruments like the kora, balafon, banjo, etc. They had universities built out of their Mosques and over 180 Koranic schools. The univesities were Sankore, Jingaray Ber and Sidi Yahya. They also had libraries were they kept manuscripts on a lot of stuff.
http://www.philip-effiong.com/Mali-University.pdf
https://www.washingtonpost.com/ente...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4ed4474c4171

The Mandingo slaves brought the Blues, Islam, the banjo, rice, etc., with them from their homelands. They also brought many traditions that many African Americans still keep, but they don't even realize. The history is even more involved than that, but it shows that African Americans ancestors were not from no damn jungles and the were not uncivilized. They were actually quite urbane and sophisticated, which is why African Americans have excelled.
 

How Sway?

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fascinating :ohhh:

The are other points that no one ever talks about in regards to Mande people, which just ends up confusing the Hell out of people. It is just historical stuff for people who may not know who the Mande people are and to the best of my abilities and in as brief a fashion as possible I will try to break it down. For those that already know the history this is regurgitated crap. For those that don't hopefully this will who the Mande people were.

The first point is that all Mande people are Mandinka/Mandingo. Mandinka/Mandenka is actually two words, namely "Manden" and "Ka" (MANDE-NKA).

- "Ka" means people or subjects or citizens of Manden.
- Manden is a place. Manden is Mali, but I am not sure if Mali is a Fulani or an Arab word.

Mandingo/Mandengo means Mandenka. So the "ngo" in Mandingo/Mandego just means people/subjects or citizens of Manden.

Mandenka/Mandingo are also interchangeably referred to as Malinke.

So Manden refers to a place and it also refers to the language that the Manden people speak. Manden is now just referred to as Mande. So when people speak about Mande people they are talking about Mandingos and Mali, because all Mande people are originally from the Empire of Manden/Mali (modern countries of Mauritania, Senegal and Mali).

The next point is that Manden people have different tribal names depending upon where they are. They are called Mandinka, Malinke, Mandingo, Bambara, Soninke, Susu, Ligbi, Mende, Bissa, Marka, Dyula, Kpelle, Vai, Loko, Jakhanke, etc., and they live all over West Africa in the countries of Benin, Burkina Faso, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast, Liberia, Mali, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal and Sierra Leone. However, they are all the same people (Mande) and their migration story starts with them being in Mali and serving a King called a Mansa.
Mandé peoples - Wikipedia

The earliest that Mande people can be placed seems to be in Walata, which is in modern day Mauritania and it is one of if not the oldest stone settlement in all of Africa. The Mande people referred to the city as Biru and it was the Southernmost end of trans-Saharan trade route. The Arab word for Biru appears to be Walata. Walata could have also been the Berber or Fulani name for Biru.
Oualata - Wikipedia

From Walata the Mande founded the Empire of Ghana. That particular group of Mande were the Soninke. After Ghana, the Mande founded the Empire of Mali. After Mali the Mande founded the Empire of Songhay, which was actually the result of some Mande noblemen crossing over and joining forces with the Songhay people to overthrow some Mali Mansas that the noblemen were at odds with. Mali still existed and on top of that many of the rulers of Songhay were Mandingos.

The Mandingos controlled trade over West Africa for hundreds of years through the traders called the Dyula. The Mandingos were also experts at making iron tools and growing crops like rice, indigo and cotton. Where ever the Dyula set up routes there were other Mandingos settled along the trade routes, which is how Mandingos ended up in so many places. Mali then basically imploded and many Mandingoes that had been in Mali went on something called the "Mane Invasion" in around 1580, which was designed to help the Mande (Mane/Manneh) people gain access to the Ocean trade that had sprung up with the arrival of the Europeans on the coast. The invasion was also designed to give the Mandingos access to salt from the sea, which the Mandingos could no longer get from the deserts around Mali because the Songhay leaders now controlled trade with North Africa and had cutoff access to the Mandingos getting salt. So the Mane invasion took Mandingos deeper into Sierra Leone, Guinea, Liberia, Ivory Coast Guinea-Bissau, Senegal and Gambia. Modern Ghana was not a part of the Mane Invasion, but the Mandingos controlled trade routes and cities in Ghana and Burkina Faso.

The Mane Invasion eventually established the Mandingos as the major force towards the coast, but it also put them at odds with the tribes that were already there. Those odds and the Europeans arming the coastal tribes is how and why so many Mandingos ended up in the slave trade. On top of that the Ashanti, Dagomba and Mossi people began enslaving and selling the Mande Muslims in Northern Ghana, Burkina Faso and Ivory Coast. Prior to that period the Mandingos had fairly good relations with those other groups and the Mandingos had even provided education to many Ashanti leaders and their children. Of course the Europeans wanted the Mandingos as slaves, because of the skills outlined above and it is believed that at least 1/3 of all Mandingos ended up in slavery.

Culturally the Mandingos had musical instruments like the kora, balafon, banjo, etc. They had universities built out of their Mosques and over 180 Koranic schools. The univesities were Sankore, Jingaray Ber and Sidi Yahya. They also had libraries were they kept manuscripts on a lot of stuff.
http://www.philip-effiong.com/Mali-University.pdf
https://www.washingtonpost.com/ente...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4ed4474c4171

The Mandingo slaves brought the Blues, Islam, the banjo, rice, etc., with them from their homelands. They also brought many traditions that many African Americans still keep, but they don't even realize. The history is even more involved than that, but it shows that African Americans ancestors were not from no damn jungles and the were not uncivilized. They were actually quite urbane and sophisticated, which is why African Americans have excelled.
 

Apollo Creed

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The are other points that no one ever talks about in regards to Mande people, which just ends up confusing the Hell out of people. It is just historical stuff for people who may not know who the Mande people are and to the best of my abilities and in as brief a fashion as possible I will try to break it down. For those that already know the history this is regurgitated crap. For those that don't hopefully this will who the Mande people were.

The first point is that all Mande people are Mandinka/Mandingo. Mandinka/Mandenka is actually two words, namely "Manden" and "Ka" (MANDE-NKA).

- "Ka" means people or subjects or citizens of Manden.
- Manden is a place. Manden is Mali, but I am not sure if Mali is a Fulani or an Arab word.

Mandingo/Mandengo means Mandenka. So the "ngo" in Mandingo/Mandego just means people/subjects or citizens of Manden.

Mandenka/Mandingo are also interchangeably referred to as Malinke.

So Manden refers to a place and it also refers to the language that the Manden people speak. Manden is now just referred to as Mande. So when people speak about Mande people they are talking about Mandingos and Mali, because all Mande people are originally from the Empire of Manden/Mali (modern countries of Mauritania, Senegal and Mali).

The next point is that Manden people have different tribal names depending upon where they are. They are called Mandinka, Malinke, Mandingo, Bambara, Soninke, Susu, Ligbi, Mende, Bissa, Marka, Dyula, Kpelle, Vai, Loko, Jakhanke, etc., and they live all over West Africa in the countries of Benin, Burkina Faso, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast, Liberia, Mali, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal and Sierra Leone. However, they are all the same people (Mande) and their migration story starts with them being in Mali and serving a King called a Mansa.
Mandé peoples - Wikipedia

The earliest that Mande people can be placed seems to be in Walata, which is in modern day Mauritania and it is one of if not the oldest stone settlement in all of Africa. The Mande people referred to the city as Biru and it was the Southernmost end of trans-Saharan trade route. The Arab word for Biru appears to be Walata. Walata could have also been the Berber or Fulani name for Biru.
Oualata - Wikipedia

From Walata the Mande founded the Empire of Ghana. That particular group of Mande were the Soninke. After Ghana, the Mande founded the Empire of Mali. After Mali the Mande founded the Empire of Songhay, which was actually the result of some Mande noblemen crossing over and joining forces with the Songhay people to overthrow some Mali Mansas that the noblemen were at odds with. Mali still existed and on top of that many of the rulers of Songhay were Mandingos.

The Mandingos controlled trade over West Africa for hundreds of years through the traders called the Dyula. The Mandingos were also experts at making iron tools and growing crops like rice, indigo and cotton. Where ever the Dyula set up routes there were other Mandingos settled along the trade routes, which is how Mandingos ended up in so many places. Mali then basically imploded and many Mandingoes that had been in Mali went on something called the "Mane Invasion" in around 1580, which was designed to help the Mande (Mane/Manneh) people gain access to the Ocean trade that had sprung up with the arrival of the Europeans on the coast. The invasion was also designed to give the Mandingos access to salt from the sea, which the Mandingos could no longer get from the deserts around Mali because the Songhay leaders now controlled trade with North Africa and had cutoff access to the Mandingos getting salt. So the Mane invasion took Mandingos deeper into Sierra Leone, Guinea, Liberia, Ivory Coast Guinea-Bissau, Senegal and Gambia. Modern Ghana was not a part of the Mane Invasion, but the Mandingos controlled trade routes and cities in Ghana and Burkina Faso.

The Mane Invasion eventually established the Mandingos as the major force towards the coast, but it also put them at odds with the tribes that were already there. Those odds and the Europeans arming the coastal tribes is how and why so many Mandingos ended up in the slave trade. On top of that the Ashanti, Dagomba and Mossi people began enslaving and selling the Mande Muslims in Northern Ghana, Burkina Faso and Ivory Coast. Prior to that period the Mandingos had fairly good relations with those other groups and the Mandingos had even provided education to many Ashanti leaders and their children. Of course the Europeans wanted the Mandingos as slaves, because of the skills outlined above and it is believed that at least 1/3 of all Mandingos ended up in slavery.

Culturally the Mandingos had musical instruments like the kora, balafon, banjo, etc. They had universities built out of their Mosques and over 180 Koranic schools. The univesities were Sankore, Jingaray Ber and Sidi Yahya. They also had libraries were they kept manuscripts on a lot of stuff.
http://www.philip-effiong.com/Mali-University.pdf
https://www.washingtonpost.com/ente...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4ed4474c4171

The Mandingo slaves brought the Blues, Islam, the banjo, rice, etc., with them from their homelands. They also brought many traditions that many African Americans still keep, but they don't even realize. The history is even more involved than that, but it shows that African Americans ancestors were not from no damn jungles and the were not uncivilized. They were actually quite urbane and sophisticated, which is why African Americans have excelled.

IDK about that bolded. Mande is an ethnic group/lingusitic family. Mandingo/Mandinka is a tribe. Vai and Mandingo are no the same tribe.
 

IllmaticDelta

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IDK about that bolded. Mande is an ethnic group/lingusitic family. Mandingo/Mandinka is a tribe. Vai and Mandingo are no the same tribe.


^^this

Mande languages are spoken by around 25 million people. They are divided into a western and an eastern group which have 27 and 13 languages, respectively. The most important of them are:

Mande%20languages%20speakers%20distribution-filtered.jpg



Mande
 

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^^this

Mande languages are spoken by around 25 million people. They are divided into a western and an eastern group which have 27 and 13 languages, respectively. The most important of them are:

Mande%20languages%20speakers%20distribution-filtered.jpg



Mande


Exactly. Mande to West Africa what African Americans are to the USA. Geechie to African Americans is what Mandingo is to Mande.

Tribes are a subset of an Ethnic Group, and Ethnic group of course are Subsets of a Race.

Within Tribes you also have Clan Subsets.

Of course Genetically and Culturally all of the Tribes in the Mande ethnic groups are 'similar' but there are differences due to the histories of each group and their migrations. People tend to equate Mande = Mandingo because from the perspective of the Mali Kingdom much of the leadership were Mandingo.
 

Samori Toure

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IDK about that bolded. Mande is an ethnic group/lingusitic family. Mandingo/Mandinka is a tribe. Vai and Mandingo are no the same tribe.

Some of the people used the same name as the overall group, like Mende/Mande. So Mandingo/Mandinka/Malinke just used the name of the overall group. However, Mandenka/Mandingo and Malinke just means "Manden" "Ka", which means people/citizens or subjects of Manden. Therefore, all Mande people are Mandenkas. I am providing you with a source. If it is not good enough then I continue to research and get you more sources, but there is a reason that Mende people are referred to as Mandingos in the America. Additionally, according to Walter Rodney the Mane Invaders into Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast and Liberia were a ruling class of Mandingos from Mali. They were led by a woman General named Macarecio (I am probably spelling her name wrong), that had been kicked out of Mali. A group like the Mende are Mandingos that possibly the result of intermarriage between the Mandingos and the local Bullom tribe in Sierra Leone.
Saylor.org's Ancient Civilizations of the World/Empire of Mali - Wikibooks, open books for an open world
Mane people - Wikipedia

In other groups it is not clear where their names came from, but what is clear is that they are Mandingos and share a common language. I noticed that Bambara and Janhanke people don't refer to themselves as Mandingos and I noticed that smaller Mande ethnic groups like the Marka and Bissa don't refer to themselves as Mandingos either. I assumed those groups changed their names to reflect a respected person like a chief, a place or a trade or something that was common to their specific region. A case in point are the Dyula (pronounced Juula). They are Mandingos, but they were renamed after their occupation of being commercial trades men/people. So the Dyula, Marka and Bissa are still Mandingos, but it is not always clear why these groups stopped referring to themselves Mandinka, Mandingos or Malinke.

Fwiw, the Vai people are Mande people. They are related to the Kpelle and Mende. I assume that the Vai are the result of Mandingos intermarriage with local ethnic groups in Liberia and Sierra Leone, which would be similar to the Mende and possibly the Kpelle people. Again it is not clear why certain groups of Mandingos stopped referring to themselves as Mandingos after they left Mali, however I assume that any language differences between them is due to local tribal influence and loan words in a region that the Mandingos moved into. Maybe it had something to do with the fact that they were intermarrying within other ethnic groups or who the Hell knows, but it is really confusing when doing research on the Mandingos. On another note the Mandingos are probably severely under counted in West Africa. There are probably the largest ethnic group in West Africa.
Vai People of Liberia and Sierra Leone.
Vai people - Wikipedia

Finally, some of the common things that I have noticed among all Mande people is the Poro and Sande societies and the Blues. The only group that I am not sure that are Mande are the Dogon people. Depending upon the sources they are referred to as Mande, but other sources state that they are not. So researching Mande people is really confusing, but is pretty clear that they are all Mandinkas that have basically dispersed from Mali within roughly the last 500 to 800 years. Maybe some have been gone long, but it seems like most left after Mali started to decline.
 

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Some of the people used the same name as the overall group, like Mende/Mande. So Mandingo/Mandinka/Malinke just used the name of the overall group. However, Mandenka/Mandingo and Malinke just means "Manden" "Ka", which means people/citizens or subjects of Manden. Therefore, all Mande people are Mandenkas. I am providing you with a source. If it is not good enough then I continue to research and get you more sources, but there is a reason that Mende people are referred to as Mandingos in the America. Additionally, according to Walter Rodney the Mane Invaders into Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast and Liberia were a ruling class of Mandingos from Mali. They were led by a woman General named Macarecio (I am probably spelling her name wrong), that had been kicked out of Mali. A group like the Mende are Mandingos that possibly the result of intermarriage between the Mandingos and the local Bullom tribe in Sierra Leone.
Saylor.org's Ancient Civilizations of the World/Empire of Mali - Wikibooks, open books for an open world
Mane people - Wikipedia

In other groups it is not clear where their names came from, but what is clear is that they are Mandingos and share a common language. I noticed that Bambara and Janhanke people don't refer to themselves as Mandingos and I noticed that smaller Mande ethnic groups like the Marka and Bissa don't refer to themselves as Mandingos either. I assumed those groups changed their names to reflect a respected person like a chief, a place or a trade or something that was common to their specific region. A case in point are the Dyula (pronounced Juula). They are Mandingos, but they were renamed after their occupation of being commercial trades men/people. So the Dyula, Marka and Bissa are still Mandingos, but it is not always clear why these groups stopped referring to themselves Mandinka, Mandingos or Malinke.

Fwiw, the Vai people are Mande people. They are related to the Kpelle and Mende. I assume that the Vai are the result of Mandingos intermarriage with local ethnic groups in Liberia and Sierra Leone, which would be similar to the Mende and possibly the Kpelle people. Again it is not clear why certain groups of Mandingos stopped referring to themselves as Mandingos after they left Mali, however I assume that any language differences between them is due to local tribal influence and loan words in a region that the Mandingos moved into. Maybe it had something to do with the fact that they were intermarrying within other ethnic groups or who the Hell knows, but it is really confusing when doing research on the Mandingos. On another note the Mandingos are probably severely under counted in West Africa. There are probably the largest ethnic group in West Africa.
Vai People of Liberia and Sierra Leone.
Vai people - Wikipedia

Finally, some of the common things that I have noticed among all Mande people is the Poro and Sande societies and the Blues. The only group that I am not sure that are Mande are the Dogon people. Depending upon the sources they are referred to as Mande, but other sources state that they are not. So researching Mande people is really confusing, but is pretty clear that they are all Mandinkas that have basically dispersed from Mali within roughly the last 500 to 800 years. Maybe some have been gone long, but it seems like most left after Mali started to decline.

Lol bro a Vai person is not a Mandingo. Mande gets used interchangeable with Mandingo/Mandinka/Malinke because the founders of the Mali Empire were Mandingo. I'm of the Dan tribe. My Grand Uncle gifted the Mandingo a lot of their land in Northern Liberia because of Islam, but we ain't Mandingo and our languages aren't the same. We are Mande due to our proximity of being in/around the Mali Empire thus culturally we are similar to a degree. Many of the Mande groups did not convert to Islam and in turn were persecuted by someone the Muslim tribes. My moms side were Muslim until converting to Christianity in like the 60s, while my dads side did not subscribe to "religion".
 

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^^this

Mande languages are spoken by around 25 million people. They are divided into a western and an eastern group which have 27 and 13 languages, respectively. The most important of them are:

Mande%20languages%20speakers%20distribution-filtered.jpg



Mande

Read up on the Mane Invasion and on the trade routes established by the Dyula and how Mandingos settled along those routes in places like Begho and Bono-Manso in Ghana and along the trade routes in places like Kong in the Ivory Coast. You are going to see that those are the same people. Some ended up isolated from other Mande groups, when the long distance Hausa traders from modern day Nigeria, the Asanti and the Mossi people forced the Dyula out of Ghana. However, it is clear that other Mandingos followed the Dyula traders and settled along those trade routes.

I think that the confusion comes in with the fact that Mandingos intermarried with local groups when they settled in a new region. There may have been adjustments to their language the same way the English in America is different than English in England. So an Eastern Mandingo might sound different than a Mandingo that lives further West, however it is pretty clear that they are the same people as the Mandingos in Mali.
 

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Lol bro a Vai person is not a Mandingo. Mande gets used interchangeable with Mandingo/Mandinka/Malinke because the founders of the Mali Empire were Mandingo. I'm of the Dan tribe. My Grand Uncle gifted the Mandingo a lot of their land in Northern Liberia because of Islam, but we ain't Mandingo and our languages aren't the same. We are Mande due to our proximity of being in/around the Mali Empire thus culturally we are similar to a degree. Many of the Mande groups did not convert to Islam and in turn were persecuted by someone the Muslim tribes. My moms side were Muslim until converting to Christianity in like the 60s, while my dads side did not subscribe to "religion".

I am not sure that we are not stating the same thing. Your language difference is probably due to the fact that your group of Mande people likely absorbed more local tribal languages into your language. You are not stating that your ancestors that came from Mali were not Mandingos you seem to be actually stating that over time your branch of the family likely intermarried more with local people thus the language difference.
 

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I am not sure that we are not stating the same thing. Your language difference is probably due to the fact that your group of Mande people likely absorbed more local tribal languages into your language. You are not stating that your ancestors that came from Mali were not Mandingos you seem to be actually stating that over time your branch of the family likely intermarried more with local people thus the language difference.

1.Mande tribes are in large Patriarchal so you are who your father is.
2.My Ancestors who Migrated from Mali through Guinea to Liberia were Dan. I could have had some Mandingo ancestors sure, but as far as the last 150 or so years my Bloodline is that of men from the Dan tribe.

The divergence of my tribe, tribes like the Kpelle, etc. from the likes of the Mandingo is something that probably happened 1 thousand plus years ago.
 
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