How good was prime Tim Duncan? At his peak was he the best player of the 2000s?

[Professor Emeritus]

This is a troll post right? Aint no way in hell you brought up the supporting cast of that 2003 Lakers squad. Horry literally had the worst year of his career in 03 and Fisher was always a deeply flawed player. Then you brought up well known scrubs in Medvedenko and George.

Manu was in his first season in the NBA and had by far the worst year of his career too, TP was basically a teenager and deeply flawed (couldn't hit threes, no defense, limited creator for other players), and Duncan had no supporting cast player who could do even a fraction of what Kobe did. George wasn't any more or less of a scrub than Malik Rose was, at least George could hit threes.


"Deeply flawed" 28yo Fisher still put up better numbers in the 2003 playoffs than 20yo Tony Parker did.

Fisher: 13-3-2 on 52% shooting, 29-47 from 3pt (69% TS)
Parker: 15-3-3.5 on 40% shooting, 15-56 from 3pt (47% TS)

Remember, Fisher was the THIRD option after Shaq and Kobe both, while TP was Duncan's #2.

28yo Fisher
24yo Kobe
25yo George
32yo Horry

20yo TP
31yo Bruce Bowen
rookie Manu
24yo Stephen Jackson


If those two team went to war, who are you betting on? Do you think TP and Manu, both basically rookies shooting 40% each that postseason, would beat Kobe/Fisher?

Lakers were the favorites going into the season because they just came off a 3 peat. But anyone who was paying attention knew that team wasnt going anywhere.

You don't get odds that heavy in your favor if "anyone who is paying attention" know they won't go anywhere.

It's a classic human fallacy to look at a result in retrospect and then overstate the confidence of what people knew beforehand. Not your fault, we all do it, but that's why only data from actual 2002 is worth anything.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

You're acting like we've never seen teams come back from down 1-2 before.

That's neither here nor there. The point is that we have a 3-game sample size where Dirk and Duncan faced each other in the postseason that year, and Duncan clearly outplayed Dirk while winning 2 of 3 despite the inferior supporting cast.

Game 1: Duncan puts up a massive 40-15-7 on 14-20 shooting. Dirk also puts up a very strong 38-15-2 on 10-19 shooting, though of course he wasn't doing the same defense or distribution work that Duncan was handling. Mavs win by 3 because they outscore the Spurs 11-3 in the three minutes that Duncan spent on the bench.

Finley: 26-4-2 on 7-14
Nash: 22-5-3 on 7-15
Van Exel: 14-4-5 on 3-12
Najera 9-2-1 on 1-2
LaFrentz 2-3-0 on 1-5

Parker: 18-2-5 on 7-18
Bowen: 13-2-2 on 3-6
Manu: 12-5-4 on 3-8 (fouled out)
Jackson 8-3-2 on 2-9
Robinson 7-2-1 on 2-2



Game 2: Duncan puts up another masterpiece, 32-15-5 on 11-21 shooting plus 3 blocks. With Dirk just managing 23-10-2 on 8-19, the Spurs win by 13 after leading by double digits the entire 4th quarter.

Finley: 29-10-3 on 10-19
LaFrentz: 15-1-0 on 5-8
Nash: 12-4-8 on 4-11
Van Exel: 13-3-3 on 5-16
Bell 6-7-3 on 3-8

Rose: 25-6-2 on 5-11
Parker 19-4-4 on 6-11
Jackson: 17-5-5 on 7-14
Ginobli 7-3-2 on 3-6
Bowen 6-3-2 on 2-7



Game 3: Duncan goes full Thanos for the 3rd straight game, throwing up 34-24-6 on 12-19 shooting with 6 blocks. Dirk only manages 15-9-2 on 7-20 shooting in 40 minutes. Spurs had just a 3-point lead going into the 4th, but Spurs pull away behind Duncan's 14-6-3 with 2 blocks in the 4th quarter alone. Dirk didn't get injured until after the Spurs were already up 14 in the 4th, due to Duncan having just had 7 points, an assist, and 2 blocks (one of Dirk) in an 11-0 Spurs run.

Van Exel: 16-3-3 on 6-15
Bell: 14-2-2 on 6-10
Nash: 10-4-9 on 4-9
Finley: 11-4-6 on 4-11
LaFrentz 10-3-0 on 5-12 (5 blocks!)

Parker: 29-8-3 on 13-23
Bowen 13-6-1 on 3-9
Jackson 12-2-1 on 5-9
Rose: 2-8-3 on 1-10
Ginobli: 2-2-3 on 1-3

Sorry, but 3 games in Duncan was fukking DESTROYING Dirk and his entire team despite the clearly inferior supporting cast. Trying to downplay those incredible performances just because Dirk got injured AFTER the Mavs were already behind is disingenuous, especially after the Mavs had just lost back-to-back games by double digits with the second one on their home court. TD actually took his foot off the gas once Dirk got hurt, only taking 14, 15, and 20 shots in the next three matches.

Duncan was the best player in every series that year and was leading his inferior cast to victory despite facing multiple teams who looked better on paper.

 

[murksiderock]

Shaq missed the first two games of that year against the Spurs. They also went 5-10 without Shaq playing that year and really out of shape to start the year once he did start playing. That was the year of the toe surgery before the season start which meant he could do little to no cardio before returning. Those Laker teams were notorious for coasting through the regular season, especially Shaq who always said he was playing himself into shape during the season. That Laker team was much better than you're giving it credit for.

Fair, and I'm not saying the Lakers were bad. I'm saying they weren't better than the Spurs and that in real time no one thought that Spurs team was mid, they were clearly one of the best teams in basketball all year. Wasn't no damn carry job ...

 

[MostReal]

Yes

 

[threattonature]

Fair, and I'm not saying the Lakers were bad. I'm saying they weren't better than the Spurs and that in real time no one thought that Spurs team was mid, they were clearly one of the best teams in basketball all year. Wasn't no damn carry job ...

That's like saying because Lebron was carrying those Cleveland teams to great records and they were expected to win a lot of games every year that he wasn't carrying those teams. It speaks more to the greatness of Lebron and Duncan than it is to the quality of the teams around them.

 

[murksiderock]

That's like saying because Lebron was carrying those Cleveland teams to great records and they were expected to win a lot of games every year that he wasn't carrying those teams. It speaks more to the greatness of Lebron and Duncan than it is to the quality of the teams around them.

Fair enough bro. I just don't remember there ever being a year in real time that we thought Duncan was carrying bad teams. I remember in real time there being years we said LeBron and Kobe were carrying otherwise bad teams. The 2003 Spurs won the championship. He may have done some carrying but I truly think we're exaggerating and undermining his support, no one in '03 really thought those Spurs were accidental champions, which is basically the tenor this thread has taken, that the '03 Spurs just lucked into a title because of Duncan's strength...

And my contention isn't that Duncan wasn't otherworldly, it's that relative to the rest of The League the Spurs roster was still better than we giving it credit for here...

But your point is taken, g!

 

[KidJSoul]

That's nonsense. Put the 2014 Spurs around LeBron and they would dominate. TP shot 42% from 3pt, Patty shot 57% from 3pt, Green shot 45% from 3pt, Manu shot 42% from 3pt, Kawhi shot 58% from 3pt, even Diaw and Belinelli were hitting threes. Bron has NEVER had a lineup around him that could shoot the lights out like that.

That squad would decimate the league. Honestly, they wouldn't even need Kawhi - with shooters like that, you could exchange Duncan AND Kawhi for LeBron and they would still win the title with TP/Patty at the point, Green/Manu at the 2, Belinelli/Manu at the 3, Bron/Diaw at the 4, and Splittler/Diaw at the 5.





You mean if he shoots 38% from 3pt like he did that very season, or 41% from 3pt like he did the year before, or 52% from 3pt like he did in that Finals?

Saying "if" he shoots really well for a season when he was shooting fantastic those years was just silly. And on top of that, why would he even need to shoot 3s like that when he has shooters like TP, Patty, Green, Manu, Kawhi, Diaw, and Belinelli to pass to? Did that team need Duncan to shoot well in order to thrive? Hell, they were playing Duncan/Splitter together at times and still running teams off the court.

He had the 2017 cavs offense that had shooters

And you're ignoring the SCHEME that the 2014 Spurs ran (the beautiful game). The insane ball movement is not something I can see a LeBron-led team having. The closest was the 2013 Heat, but that wasn't the same, and LeBron's teams ha e always had an issue.

In 2024, the Lakers had a great record when they ran offensive sets on 55% of their possessions. But they didn't do that often. It's easy to blame the coach, but this is a constant with LeBron

Lebrons shooting is good in a "if I'm open and spot up shooting, I can be efficient". But I'm talking about actual shot creation, routinely making his own jump shot, jump shooting at high volume, stepbacks, sio jumpers, catch and shoot, etc. Cmon, we know that LeBron has largely not been that good at that.

And that's gonna hurt the ball movement. Even LeBron's post scoring is streaky - I'm not saying he's inefficient, but he doesn't rely on it that much. So you can't say "why would he need to shoot 3s". I mean sure he might not need to shoot 3s but teams can sag off a little with him. That 2014 Spurs team would not have run as efficiently with him.

And that's not including Duncan's rim protection. And you're underselling Kawhi's perimeter defense in 2014.

 

[Roger king]

Fair, and I'm not saying the Lakers were bad. I'm saying they weren't better than the Spurs and that in real time no one thought that Spurs team was mid, they were clearly one of the best teams in basketball all year. Wasn't no damn carry job ...

Going into the season who would you say was the favorites by the analsysts? i am going back to watch old games and tapes on youtube. Who was considered as the top player among the two squads?