No one is saying that Jay isn't an all-time great rapper. That's not the premise of the thread. OP brought a legit criticism to the table. Fact is, the few songs where he's tried to write outside of himself have fell flat. "Meet The Parents" is one of the most convoluted rap songs I've ever heard.
How could Jay Z be the GOAT when he's never made a good song that wasn't about Jay Z?
- Thread starter Dusty Bake Activate
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No one is saying that Jay isn't an all-time great rapper. That's not the premise of the thread. OP brought a legit criticism to the table. Fact is, the few songs where he's tried to write outside of himself have fell flat. "Meet The Parents" is one of the most convoluted rap songs I've ever heard.
Inspect Her Deck
Skins of all colours come together as brothers
Unlike most of your favorite rappers, Jay went through enough shyt for him to talk about his real life.
Cats are trying to make up fugazi rules
How can Pac be the goat if he can't make comedy rap? How can Nas be the goat if he can't freestyle? How can Ra be the goat if he can't handle trap beats?
40 year old nikkas trolling
and even worse when it is proven that Jay in fact can make good songs where he's not the central focus. Double L for OP.
Inspect Her Deck
Skins of all colours come together as brothers
OP literally said the reason Jay cannot be GOAT is because he cannot make good songs that aren't about him. That is EXACTLY the premise of the thread.
Jay can be an all-time great rapper without being the GOAT.
WOAHMYGOODNESS
Your TSC World Champion
Meet the parents
Inspect Her Deck
Skins of all colours come together as brothers
Firstly, having read the thread title properly, I have no idea why OP putting words in peoples mouth. Nobody called Jay the outright GOAT, but he's a GOAT contender, so he has just as strong a claim to the #1 spot as anybody.
Secondly, as others have shown, even if OP was right, which he isn't, why is he expected to bring songs to the table that other artists can bring? He has his own style, and he brings a whole deal to the table, if you want some other shyt, listen to other artists. It doesn't detract from his GOAT status whatsoever.
We criticize rappers on this board everyday. People criticize Em for his white trash content. Andre 3000 for his lack of solo albums. Ghostface for his lack of commercial success. Why do you guys get so weird when a legit MUSIC (or music writing) criticism is leveled against Jay-Z?
Inspect Her Deck
Skins of all colours come together as brothers
Let's see how well it works with Nas, yeah?
The reason this thread failed anyway, is because it is wrong. I don't wanna get into it again. I've written all over this thread.
Dusty Bake Activate
Fukk your corny debates
Be metaphorically dyslexic brehs.Dusty Bake Activate
Fukk your corny debates
Many in the core audience consider ATLiens in the GOAT album conversation, yes.
Absolut da poet ®
Jubilado
JayZ success was due to his ability to connect with fans
various types of people all like these tracks for different reasons
Looking at his peers it appears that the least successful ones are the ones who can't talk about themselves ...
they are not interesting enough .. some figure out how to sell their alter egos
others become that person they created ...
Blueprint
Black Album
Definitely Certified Classics
All time Hip Hop albums
others on that list for me
Life After Death
Death Certificate
Supreme Clientel
All Eyes On Me
It Was Written
various types of people all like these tracks for different reasons
Looking at his peers it appears that the least successful ones are the ones who can't talk about themselves ...
they are not interesting enough .. some figure out how to sell their alter egos
others become that person they created ...
Reasonable Doubt
Blueprint
Black Album
Definitely Certified Classics
All time Hip Hop albums
others on that list for me
Life After Death
Death Certificate
Supreme Clientel
All Eyes On Me
It Was Written
Dusty Bake Activate
Fukk your corny debates
Exactly. You have to be either a delusional camel nut-gargler or have very poor attention to detail to not concede that Jay Z's lyrical myopia is a very valid knock on him. Music is expression of self and life, and often of shared common experience. The most powerful and enduring music has always been a reflection of life and times of the people, whether you're talking about Curtis Mayfield, Bob Marley, Bob Dylan or whoever. John Lennon, Prince, Jimi Hendrix, pick a name, didn't just write songs about themselves. If they did, their music wouldn't have been as revered. Hip-hop is more of an organic expression of the people who constitute the culture moreso than maybe any other major genre of music.
Jay Z is great at giving you his own personal experience through his lens. He might even be THE greatest introspective rapper. His problem is he can't step outside himself like every other great rapper can, and when he does it usually falls flat. I see camel stans already making up dumb excuses like "Well he really lived the life so he speaks about what he does," like the first rapper to sell drugs or grow up in poverty. And also, like almost every other street rapper, he does embellish stuff. So he does take artistic license...but it's always about him as usual.
Camel stans are so easy to poke fun at because they literally will not concede that he has ONE single flaw as an artist or a human being. When you raise a valid point about an imperfection in their bactrian father figure, the knives are out, and it's like muscle memory to try and counterattack instead of even considering maybe it's a criticism with legitimacy. And an entirely discography of next to no quality material outside of talking about yourself is a legitimate critique. Maybe not so much for just any old rapper, but for a guy who many say is the GOAT, for sure.
Jay Z suffers from not being profound or poignant, or even just interesting without talking about himself. If he's speaking about poverty, urban decay social and the crack epidemic, it's about how poverty, urban decay, social neglect, and the crack epidemic has affected Jay Z (i.e. blame Reagan for making me a monster, blame Oliver North and Iran contra). If he mentions Rosa Parks, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Fred Hampton, or Frank Lucas, it's only to use them as a prop to pat himself on the back (i.e. I'm representing for the seat where Rosa Parks sat). Everything revolves around himself while he either brags or tries to elicit sympathy from the listener. It always goes back to long-winded inner monologue about how selling drugs 6 decades ago or girls calling him ugly or whatever affected his psychological and emotional state. It's all about fukking him.
I used the example of Ghost's verse on Impossible in a earlier post, where he painted a vivid and powerful picture of the scene of his friend getting shot and killed in front of him. If you asked Jay Z to write a song about a friend getting killed, he would just talk about how it upset him the whole time and you would have no insight to or picture of the situation.
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Dusty Bake Activate
Fukk your corny debates
Except he can't. The only solid banger Jay Z has that isn't about himself is Fallin'. That song slipped my mind until Piffery mentioned it. Empire State of Mind...eh, pretty good song as well. A couple of fails (Meet the Parents, Minority Report, Ballad of the Fallen Soldier). Out of 12 studio albums, that's pretty bad.
Now compare that the body of work Nas, Pac, Common, Ghost, Black Thought, Scarface, Ice Cube, or KRS, etc.
You know Jay Z pretty much can only rap about Jay Z. You're just being stubborn. Doesn't mean Jay Z isn't an all time great...but it's a legit knock.
Inspect Her Deck
Skins of all colours come together as brothers
You're trying way too hard to convince yourself of this argument, as evidenced by the long post above. I can see what you're getting at, I know what you're trying to say but nah it doesn't cut it. Granted, Jay hardly ever removes himself entirely from a situation, but there are plenty of times when he hasn't been the main focus.
Jay is like an essay writer rapper. He writes the essay on the subject, and puts his own twist on shyt to personalise it so you can identify it was written by him. That's far from a flaw.