GZA or Lupe...who's the better lyricist?

[spliz]

I literally just said Pac was my favorite rapper, you don't have to explain to me the quality of Pac's music. My point is that none of what you said is lyricism. He has other qualities that make his music valuable to me.

But what you did show here is that you define lyricism as "lyrics that I like" which as I said renders the word and discussion useless because someone somewhere likes every rappers lyrics. Someone likes Birdman's lyrics.

I didn't. That's actually u. To the core. I know Pac is ur favorite rapper. And that's why I used him. And it's the most confusing favorite rapper u have based on what u like in rappers. But here we are. Someone who's a great storyteller is a lyricist to me. That's one form. Someone being great with weaving words together. That's another form. Someone who's great with slant rhyming. That's another form. Someone who's great with multisyllables. Thats another form. Someone who is extremely poetic. That's another form. Someone who can drop content vividly. That's another form. Someone who's a great songwriter. That's another form. Someone who's great with metaphors and similes. That's another form. Someone who is great with entendres. That's another form. The list goes on. U got English majors who would disagree wholeheartedly with ur narrow view of lyricism. Ur opinion isn't fact and u need to understand that. Someone can be a master of one of these things I listed or multiple of these things. Very rarely does an emcee master ALL of these things but if u do multiple of these at a high level than yes ur a great lyricist. And as far as Pac goes. If u can tell me why ur a fan of him without his lyrics being involved in that discussion I would understand u not feeling he's a lyricist. But I feel like his LYRICS are what connects u to him and what makes u feel like he's the GOAT. That means he did his job.

 

[FreshAIG]

The issue I have with ranking Lupe high as others do as a pen is sometimes he gets so abstract and obscure with his references, and they're so loosely connected, that even if you get the reference, he can damn near say it means anything he wants and nobody would even know. This is why often times people dissect his bars and come away with multiple different meanings, and usually all of them are wrong. Lupe writes in a way (sometimes), that only he'd be able to fully explain what he actually means because it's so convoluted. He leaves a lot of ambiguity to his wordplay which to me isn't necessarily skillful as it is pretentious. He's a big Aesop Rock guy, who notoriously thrives on being vague with a lot of loosely connected wordplay.

And then outside of the times when he's trying to be grandiose, some of his wordplay is just corny. Some of his verses that are not overtly littered with inconsequent riddling, have bars that are just not good.

The highest level lyricists to me is able display high level technical skills (wordplay, scheming, metaphors, multi-syllabic rhyming), while being proficient and getting a POV across that is clear to the listener, even if they don't get every bar, they get the overall message the MC is relaying. If the only person that fully understands what you're writing is you, then you aren't as good as you think you are. You should be able to take a complex thought, write in your highly coded language (which rap is) while still making your messaging clear. That's what Nas does, that's what Rakim does, that's what Jay-Z does.

To me Lupe is able to do that in songs like Failure. When he's in that lane, it's beautiful. I have no complaints, it's elite.

 

[spliz]

The issue I have with ranking Lupe high as others do as a pen is sometimes he gets so abstract and obscure with his references, and they're so loosely connected, that even if you get the reference, he can damn near say it means anything he wants and nobody would even know. This is why often times people dissect his bars and come away with multiple different meanings, and usually all of them are wrong. Lupe writes in a way (sometimes), that only he'd be able to fully explain what he actually means because it's so convoluted. He leaves a lot of ambiguity to his wordplay which to me isn't necessarily skillful as it is pretentious. He's a big Aesop Rock guy, who is notoriously thrives on being vague with a lot of loosely connected wordplay.

And then outside of the times when he's trying to be grandiose, some of his wordplay is just corny. Some of his verses that are not overtly littered with inconsequent riddling, have bars that are just not good.

The highest level lyricists to me is able display high level technical skills (wordplay, scheming, metaphors, multi-syllabic rhyming), while being proficient and getting a POV across that is clear to the listener, even if they don't get every bar, they get the overall message the MC is relaying. If the only person that fully understands what you're writing is you, then you aren't as good as you think you are. You should be able to a complex thought, write in your highly coded language (which rap is) while it still making your messaging clear. That's what Nas does, that's what Rakim does, that's what Jay-Z does.

To me Lupe is able to do that in songs like Failure. When he's in that lane, it's beautiful. I have no complaints, it's elite.

Bro check my other post I wrote a page back. This literally explains what I was trying to say to a T.

 

[Mike Wins]

What? Someone please explain to me how you can dismiss dope rappers.

I’ve been vocal about my love for GZA and his lyricism, but how can you say Lupe doesn’t have a clear cut consensus classic and that he lacks quality and depth? Lupe fukking Fiasco doesn’t have quality and depth?

Even if you stop listening to him because of the Atlantic Fiasco and haven’t heard Tetsuo, DROGASWave, and DMIZ, the cool and F&L are landmark albums and are considered classic albums. He’s influenced so many artists.

As a fan of music and rap lyricism I get saying so and so is better but to totally say someone isn’t good or whack is crazy to me.

OFFICIAL "RAPPERS PRAISING LUPE" THREAD | TOP...

www.kanyetothe.com

This man has gotten praised from Common, Chuck D, GZA, Nas, Hov, Ice T, Bun B, Killah Priest, and a thousand rappers have said he’s influenced them from Kendrick, Meek Mil, Isaiah Rashad, Schoolboy Q, Ab Soul, Wale, and others.

Only a few of us have tried to breakdown lyrics yall are just in here being disrespectful. How can you not appreciate what GZA and Lu done? This is wild man.

I'm responding to a dude who's totally dismissive of everything GZA done outside Liquid Swords and has been throughout the thread. To me GZA accomplished more and left more of a mark on the game, I don't see how you can argue anything Lupe's done has the same standing in hip hop lore as LS or the first two Wu albums in particular. But GZA got a lot of high quality work outside those albums. So when I see someone saying he ain't done shyt outside one project I will push back

I been clear though, most of Lupe's music don't hit like that for me. But I'm not going to front on his skills. If you think he's better I can respect that, some dudes in this thread are getting ridiculous with it though

 

[spliz]

I'm responding to a dude who's totally dismissive of everything GZA done outside Liquid Swords and has been throughout the thread. To me GZA accomplished more and left more of a mark on the game, I don't see how you can argue anything Lupe's done has the same standing in hip hop lore as LS or the first two Wu albums in particular. But he got a lot of high quality work outside those albums. So when I see someone saying he ain't done shyt outside one project I will push back

I been clear though, most of Lupe's music don't hit like that for me. But I'm not going to front on his skills. If you think he's better I can respect that, some dudes in this thread are getting ridiculous with it though

My son @The Truest aka IR is an example of someone who would say they like Martial Artists. But dismiss every style of Martial Arts that ain't his favorite as not even being Martial Arts. nikka prolly shyt on any Street Fighter character he don't like and would get his ass busted in a tournament cause of it. Lol

 

[Billy Ocean]

This thread didn’t go the way you though it would did it? Lol @Billy Ocean

It went EXACTLY how I thought it would

Made it to expose Lupe nerds stupidity. Mission accomplished.

 

[The Truest]

I didn't. That's actually u. To the core. I know Pac is ur favorite rapper. And that's why I used him. And it's the most confusing favorite rapper u have based on what u like in rappers. But here we are. Someone who's a great storyteller is a lyricist to me. That's one form. Someone being great with weaving words together. That's another form. Someone who's great with slant rhyming. That's another form. Someone who's great with multisyllables. Thats another form. Someone who is extremely poetic. That's another form. Someone who can drop content vividly. That's another form. Someone who's a great songwriter. That's another form. Someone who's great with metaphors and similes. That's another form. Someone who is great with entendres. That's another form. The list goes on. U got English majors who would disagree wholeheartedly with ur narrow view of lyricism. Ur opinion isn't fact and u need to understand that. Someone can be a master of one of these things I listed or multiple of these things. Very rarely does an emcee master ALL of these things but if u do multiple of these at a high level than yes ur a great lyricist. And as far as Pac goes. If u can tell me why ur a fan of him without his lyrics being involved in that discussion I would understand u not feeling he's a lyricist. But I feel like his LYRICS are what connects u to him and what makes u feel like he's the GOAT. That means he did his job.

It's what you and most others do, not me. Again, you and others confuse lyricist for "rapper you like" you whole explanation said that. You talked about the reasons why Pac is a good rapper without discussing the actual writing techniques. You're confused as to why Pac is my favorite because you confused "lyricist" with "good rapper" once you untangle the two it will make more sense. Also you're confusing my definition with what I like, again because to you "what I like" is part of your math. I dont like Chino XL at all but hes a great lyricist by my definition, and I can acknowledge he has some dope bars. Being a great storyteller is being a great storyteller. Being great with multis is being great with multis. You're proving my point again, your definition is so broad that 100% of rappers fit your definition, so it's pointless.

 

[spliz]

It's what you and most others do, not me. Again, you and others confuse lyricist for "rapper you like" you whole explanation said that. You talked about the reasons why Pac is a good rapper without discussing the actual writing techniques. You're confused as to why Pac is my favorite because you confused "lyricist" with "good rapper" once you untangle the two it will make more sense. Also you're confusing my definition with what I like, again because to you "what I like" is part of your math. I dont like Chino XL at all but hes a great lyricist by my definition, and I can acknowledge he has some dope bars. Being a great storyteller is being a great storyteller. Being great with multis is being great with multis. You're proving my point again, your definition is so broad that 100% of rappers fit your definition, so it's pointless.

Yea. U think Nas ain't a lyricist. Someone who has his lyrics being taught in Harvard. Lol. Bro. This is ALLL u brodie. Everyone else is wrong. Except u.

 

[The Truest]

Yea. U think Nas ain't a lyricist. Someone who has his lyrics being taught in Harvard. Lol. Bro. This is ALLL u brodie. Everyone else is wrong. Except u.

Not everyone. But most yeah. You're proving it again. Nas is being taught in Harvard so Nas is a lyricist (as if Harvard is known for their hip hop takes).

 

[spliz]

Not everyone. But most yeah. You're proving it again. Nas is being taught in Harvard so Nas is a lyricist (as if Harvard is known for their hip hop takes).

U don't have to be into hip hop to know what a damn lyricist is. How bout u respond to what my son @FreshAIG posted in this thread.

 

[mobbinfms]

Liquid swords, beneath the surface, grandmasters > my 3 fav lupe albums but not by some chasm or anything.

LS is better than any Lupe album by the widest of margins. LS is a perfect album.
Lupe’s best album, Food & Liquor, has missteps and is, at best, a 4.5 mic album. The Cool was a very disappointing follow up and Lupe hasn’t gone past 3-3.5 mic territory since then. Although in fairness to him, I haven’t checked out anything fully since T&Y. I’ve tried, but the music just doesn’t grab me.

 

[mobbinfms]

Mannnnnnneeee hell nawl. First 5 pages only GZA album nikkas named was Liquid Swords. @Chip Skylark was the first nikka to even bring up his other shyt

GZA is elite lyrically, but he’s like Jada dawg, the nikka has like one or two flows max

What we talking bout here mane? nikka hasn’t put out an album in 20 years and he got a deeper discography?

Yeah, ight…

GZA would absolutely eviscerate Lupe in a Verzus.
Think about all the classic Wu records he’s on.

 

[Mike Wins]

You said he was “Lupe a hyper technical lyrical miracle with super dense bars type” and then when I broke down how I can tell you don’t listen to him “By dense I mean packed with multis and verbose, not abstract or hard to understand. I get that it's a generalization and don't apply to every track.” THATS SIGN OF A GREAT LYRICIST!

Just say you don’t like him.

I been up front about my stance unlike most in this thread breh

You got dudes in this thread being far more disrespectful toward GZA than I been toward Lupe. I never once said he ain't talented or a great lyricist

All I disputed is that being flashier or packing more words into each bar automatically equal being a superior lyricist

You can equate it to any other form of writing. Some of the best poetry and novels use a stripped down straightforward writing style. The most impactful book you ever read probably ain't the one that used the biggest words and most literary devices

Being precise and maximizing the impact of every word ain't dumbing down. In many cases it's the opposite. If it takes you five pages to communicate what I can in one, that don't make you a better writer. Same way if I can convey in four bars what take you a whole verse, that don't make you a better lyricist

 

[Billy Ocean]

The way these corny ass Lupe weirdo nerds have b*stardized what a lyricist is on this site is crazy.

 

[Chip Skylark]

Y’all either are overrating and overstating how abstract Lupe gets or just simply don’t listen to him. He literally states what he raps about A LOT are is very direct but throws entendres to give songs double meanings. No different than Stanley Kubrick in his films and Quentin Tarantino.

Dude is very direct in his topics but sprinkles in bits here and there.

Abstract Lyrics/Songs you may need get off the first listens on albums

1. F&L- the instrumental 1/16
2. The Cool- Dumb It Down 1/19
3. LASERS- 0/11
4. F&L 2- Form Follows Function 1/16
5. Tetsuo- the entire album lol (masterpiece)
6. Drogas Light- 0/14
7. DROGAS Wave- Mural Jr 1/24
8. HOUSE- 0/5
9. DMIZ- Ghoti 1/10

That’s not even 25% of his mainstream discography. We can do mixtapes too. I can do this with GZA also. As a future and thug fan people complain about their “simple lyrics” on this board all the time. As a Lupe fan people then complain about “complex lyrics” but that’s not the case. As a Wu fan (ghost and Rae) a lot times people didn’t understand what they were saying and they said they were high out of their mind creating terms and slang. Y’all pick and choose what’s acceptable for abstract and what’s acceptable for less is more.

Like I’ve stated earlier people don’t really listen rap and dissect lyrics like that.