Greece financial crisis | Latest : Deal reached with even tougher conditions for Greece.

King Kreole

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The thing is, everyone is catching up now on what has been going in Greece. But Greeks themselvs should remind everyone that corruption has always been around, including under right governments. That the so-called "chaos" in Greece did not stop Germany from doing a lot of business there, and if you study the Eurozone you realize it works because some countries are customers : Germany needs Greece, among others, to imports German goods. That's how Germany keeps it economy going, because the interior market is stagnant (yes, you guessed it : because of austerity measures). Also, Golden Sachs helped previous greek gvt to "work the books" in order to get into the eurozone. And the crisis was out of hand a long time before Syriza was even formed. This would be like blaming Obama for the war in Irak.

Wha people fail to understand, I thinlk, is just what Greece has ALREADY done : they have been doing ALL THE STUFF required by the IMF, ECB and Commission for YEARS now. And the situation has only gotten worse and worse, like every serious economist knows it would. Austerity policies cannot lead to growth, it's almost mathematically impossible. And now eldery people are dying, people don't have access to school, o medecine, to public transportation, to their pension, etc. How exactly are they supposed to create any kind of growth?

Syriza is asking to change the focus from just repaying the debt to actually investing in the future. Because, it MUST be repeated time and time again, 3/4 of all the money "given" to Greece never made it to Greece : it went straight in the French, German banks and the IMF. IMF already made 2.5 billion euros off the Greek debt.

So what Syriza is asking is that instead of having all that money go the banks, let's actually invest for the future with it. A sor of New-Deal if you will. Because how else do we create growth?

Yeah I agree. Corruption, even if it's not to the scale of Greece's, is taking place in every nation, so it's not like Greece is some unique evil or anything. And the dominant European nations/banks definitely took advantage of mismanagement of the Greek state, but it's Greece who got left holding the bag in this case. It would be foolish to blame Syriza, who have been in office for 6 months, for the past 6 years of Greek mismanagement that led to this situation, so I don't blame them for the mess Greece is in. I also don't think hardline austerity is the solution to this crisis. The way I see it, austerity is a contextual tool. If a government is spending an inordinate amount and being profligate with their budget (which Greece was, running a 200% debt-to-GDP ratio :merchant:) then it's only natural that austerity measures, in the form of lower public spending, more stringent tax enforcement, etc, are needed to bring the country back to a sustainable economic state. People often confuse austerity for crippling austerity. But Greece is currently drowning, so now is not the time to teach them how to swim. Throw them a lifejacket in the form of an emergency influx of cash to restore basic services, and then only tow them in when they've agreed to permanent reforms. You're right that a majority of their loans have gone to paying off interest, so they should be given a grace period in which they can focus on getting their house in order. I don't think the debt should be completely forgiven though, because their problems weren't due to a freak of nature or civil war, it was corrupt governments that the Greek people themselves voted in. Otherwise, the citizens of other European nations will have to shoulder the burden of the Greek mismanagement. Complete debt forgiveness isn't wiping the slate clean, it's asking the Germans and other European citizens to pay higher taxes for Greek mismanagement. :francis:

Someone has to pay, and If anyone should be paying for this, it's the Greeks themselves, as soon as they are capable.
 

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Yeah I agree. Corruption, even if it's not to the scale of Greece's, is taking place in every nation, so it's not like Greece is some unique evil or anything. And the dominant European nations/banks definitely took advantage of mismanagement of the Greek state, but it's Greece who got left holding the bag in this case. It would be foolish to blame Syriza, who have been in office for 6 months, for the past 6 years of Greek mismanagement that led to this situation, so I don't blame them for the mess Greece is in. I also don't think hardline austerity is the solution to this crisis. The way I see it, austerity is a contextual tool. If a government is spending an inordinate amount and being profligate with their budget (which Greece was, running a 200% debt-to-GDP ratio :merchant:) then it's only natural that austerity measures, in the form of lower public spending, more stringent tax enforcement, etc, are needed to bring the country back to a sustainable economic state. People often confuse austerity for crippling austerity. But Greece is currently drowning, so now is not the time to teach them how to swim. Throw them a lifejacket in the form of an emergency influx of cash to restore basic services, and then only tow them in when they've agreed to permanent reforms. You're right that a majority of their loans have gone to paying off interest, so they should be given a grace period in which they can focus on getting their house in order. I don't think the debt should be completely forgiven though, because their problems weren't due to a freak of nature or civil war, it was corrupt governments that the Greek people themselves voted in. Otherwise, the citizens of other European nations will have to shoulder the burden of the Greek mismanagement. Complete debt forgiveness isn't wiping the slate clean, it's asking the Germans and other European citizens to pay higher taxes for Greek mismanagement. :francis:

Someone has to pay, and If anyone should be paying for this, it's the Greeks themselves, as soon as they are capable.
See, you get it.

Accountability starts by looking in the mirror.
 

mbewane

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Yeah I agree. Corruption, even if it's not to the scale of Greece's, is taking place in every nation, so it's not like Greece is some unique evil or anything. And the dominant European nations/banks definitely took advantage of mismanagement of the Greek state, but it's Greece who got left holding the bag in this case. It would be foolish to blame Syriza, who have been in office for 6 months, for the past 6 years of Greek mismanagement that led to this situation, so I don't blame them for the mess Greece is in. I also don't think hardline austerity is the solution to this crisis. The way I see it, austerity is a contextual tool. If a government is spending an inordinate amount and being profligate with their budget (which Greece was, running a 200% debt-to-GDP ratio :merchant:) then it's only natural that austerity measures, in the form of lower public spending, more stringent tax enforcement, etc, are needed to bring the country back to a sustainable economic state. People often confuse austerity for crippling austerity. But Greece is currently drowning, so now is not the time to teach them how to swim. Throw them a lifejacket in the form of an emergency influx of cash to restore basic services, and then only tow them in when they've agreed to permanent reforms. You're right that a majority of their loans have gone to paying off interest, so they should be given a grace period in which they can focus on getting their house in order. I don't think the debt should be completely forgiven though, because their problems weren't due to a freak of nature or civil war, it was corrupt governments that the Greek people themselves voted in. Otherwise, the citizens of other European nations will have to shoulder the burden of the Greek mismanagement. Complete debt forgiveness isn't wiping the slate clean, it's asking the Germans and other European citizens to pay higher taxes for Greek mismanagement. :francis:

Someone has to pay, and If anyone should be paying for this, it's the Greeks themselves, as soon as they are capable.

Agree most of this, and not trying to open an other debate, but we both know that sometimes debts are not paid (Germany post WW2, and some banks after the 2008 crisis).

Indeed, some austerity is needed, but at some point you have to think of the future too and not just the books. There are citizens made of flesh and blood that have lives to live.

Actually François Hollande's initial plan, along with then Belgian PM and a couple others was to combine austerity with some Keynesian growth measures, investing in some key areas, at a European level.

Merkel said Nein :camby::mjcry:
 

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Agree most of this, and not trying to open an other debate, but we both know that sometimes debts are not paid (Germany post WW2, and some banks after the 2008 crisis).

Indeed, some austerity is needed, but at some point you have to think of the future too and not just the books. There are citizens made of flesh and blood that have lives to live.

Actually François Hollande's initial plan, along with then Belgian PM and a couple others was to combine austerity with some Keynesian growth measures, investing in some key areas, at a European level.

Merkel said Nein :camby::mjcry:
Germany paid WWI tho :manny:
 

King Kreole

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Agree most of this, and not trying to open an other debate, but we both know that sometimes debts are not paid (Germany post WW2, and some banks after the 2008 crisis).

Indeed, some austerity is needed, but at some point you have to think of the future too and not just the books. There are citizens made of flesh and blood that have lives to live.

Actually François Hollande's initial plan, along with then Belgian PM and a couple others was to combine austerity with some Keynesian growth measures, investing in some key areas, at a European level.

Merkel said Nein :camby::mjcry:
Yep, debt forgiveness happens, but in my opinion it should only take place under extreme circumstances. The London Debt Agreement worked because the total Treaty of Versailles debt was deemed to be too harsh in the first place (and no one wanted another Hitler) and Germany even made an attempt to pay it off in full. The rest of the debt was cut by half and stretched out. Germany actually finished their debt by paying out 70 million euros of their war debts in 2010. This is the type of thing that should happen to Greece. Reduce their debt by whatever amount the other citizens of Europe can swallow in tax hikes, and then stretch the rest of the debt out into the foreseeable future.

Greece will definitely need investment, but I dunno how that's gonna work out.
 

The Fukin Prophecy

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There are various reasons to this :

- When other countries default, they can just borrow more money or devaluate their money. Or say fukk you to the banks. This is what happens usually. But Greece can't, because it is "stuck" within the eurozone. Which is an unprecedented situation.

- Actually there are grassroots organizations here in Europe seeking debt relief and complaining about debts in other countries (especially African countries). They would be labelled "communist" in the US probably, and obviously have no access whatsoever to mainstream media. But they do work with governments, if I recall well one (CADTM, from Belgium) worked latin american gvts to have part of their debt erased.

- Obviously this is in Europe, which is the first or second market in the world by its size and the first or second commercial partner in the world. Whatever happens in Greece will impact the Eurozone, which will impact the EU, which will impact the world economy. With all due respect, no one cares (politically or economically) if Malawi or Cambodia defaults.

- Moreover, what is happening in Greece is the opposition between the legitimacy of citizens from a sovereign state (Greeks) and the "legitimacy" of monetary institutions, none of which are elected. Basically, it's democracy vs technocracy. It's Europeans against EU civil servants (and no, most of them are not elected). It's much bigger than "just" the money. When you Martin Schulz, the president of the European Parliament (which, if you actually know what we're talking about, is supposed to represent the european CITIZENS) says that he hoped for a "Yes" vote so that Tsipras would be replaces by a technocrat government (chose by the troika, like it happened in Italy), there is a very serious problem.

- Bigger still, this is in the whole debate about what the EU itself should be : a free-market and nothing more (like GB, neo-liberals, the US and big business want...and needless to say, the ECB and the IMF) or should it be a deeper political union, with checks and balances, but also with real solidarity between the different areas?



Totally agree. We should have waited at least 10 pr 15 years before moving forward with expansion. The move was more political, to diminish Russia's influence but also I believe to undermine the chances of ever getting to a federal europe. This is why big business lobbies, GB and the US were pushing HARD for expansion.

@Reggie Rhodes


The thing is, everyone is catching up now on what has been going in Greece. But Greeks themselvs should remind everyone that corruption has always been around, including under right governments. That the so-called "chaos" in Greece did not stop Germany from doing a lot of business there, and if you study the Eurozone you realize it works because some countries are customers : Germany needs Greece, among others, to imports German goods. That's how Germany keeps it economy going, because the interior market is stagnant (yes, you guessed it : because of austerity measures). Also, Golden Sachs helped previous greek gvt to "work the books" in order to get into the eurozone. And the crisis was out of hand a long time before Syriza was even formed. This would be like blaming Obama for the war in Irak.

Wha people fail to understand, I thinlk, is just what Greece has ALREADY done : they have been doing ALL THE STUFF required by the IMF, ECB and Commission for YEARS now. And the situation has only gotten worse and worse, like every serious economist knows it would. Austerity policies cannot lead to growth, it's almost mathematically impossible. And now eldery people are dying, people don't have access to school, o medecine, to public transportation, to their pension, etc. How exactly are they supposed to create any kind of growth?

Syriza is asking to change the focus from just repaying the debt to actually investing in the future. Because, it MUST be repeated time and time again, 3/4 of all the money "given" to Greece never made it to Greece : it went straight in the French, German banks and the IMF. IMF already made 2.5 billion euros off the Greek debt.

So what Syriza is asking is that instead of having all that money go the banks, let's actually invest for the future with it. A sor of New-Deal if you will. Because how else do we create growth?





Actually, the EU IS a safety net. And if you actually read up on Greece and the crisis, as well as EU internal politics, you will understand why Tsipars and Syriza are being made examples of.

The fact is that the banks and the IMF don't need the money, and the ECB could easily negotiate with the IMF in order to cover up for Greece, and then organize an intra-European agreement with Greece in the long-term. This is not economical, it is a political game, a show of power by Merkel, the ECB, the IMF and banks. There is no economic founding to the way all of this is being handled by EU institutions. It's actually counter-productive, except for banks.
Fantastic post...:salute:

You basically hit every point on the head breh...

One of the biggest factors overlooked in this mess is Goldman Sachs involvement in cooking the books...Everyone is quick to yell the dirty Greeks lied but they NEVER would have got in the eurozone if German bankers didn't cook the books...Another thing you touched on that was intresting was German business with the Greeks...The bulk of that German business you mentioned is defense contracts they basically forced the Greeks into by getting involved on the low in the Turkish/Greek conflict...Selling weapons to both fully aware the Greeks were spending like crazy...

but its all the lazy diry Greeks fault...and after Greece is out its going to be all the lazy dirty Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese etc fault...
 

ADevilYouKhow

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Currently ? Indeed. Most of the debt is held by EFSF which was created to "transfer" the debt from national banks to countries.
Okay, yeah, but that's totally unfair to taxpayers. Right? It's unimaginable that they hadn't created something like the efsf prior to the crisis. Europe has failed because member states refused to federalize and make member wide commitments to set standards. I think there is plenty of blame to go around but Greece is completely refusing to shoulder any of the blame.
 

CHL

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There are various reasons to this :

- When other countries default, they can just borrow more money or devaluate their money. Or say fukk you to the banks. This is what happens usually. But Greece can't, because it is "stuck" within the eurozone. Which is an unprecedented situation.

- Actually there are grassroots organizations here in Europe seeking debt relief and complaining about debts in other countries (especially African countries). They would be labelled "communist" in the US probably, and obviously have no access whatsoever to mainstream media. But they do work with governments, if I recall well one (CADTM, from Belgium) worked latin american gvts to have part of their debt erased.

- Obviously this is in Europe, which is the first or second market in the world by its size and the first or second commercial partner in the world. Whatever happens in Greece will impact the Eurozone, which will impact the EU, which will impact the world economy. With all due respect, no one cares (politically or economically) if Malawi or Cambodia defaults.

- Moreover, what is happening in Greece is the opposition between the legitimacy of citizens from a sovereign state (Greeks) and the "legitimacy" of monetary institutions, none of which are elected. Basically, it's democracy vs technocracy. It's Europeans against EU civil servants (and no, most of them are not elected). It's much bigger than "just" the money. When you Martin Schulz, the president of the European Parliament (which, if you actually know what we're talking about, is supposed to represent the european CITIZENS) says that he hoped for a "Yes" vote so that Tsipras would be replaces by a technocrat government (chose by the troika, like it happened in Italy), there is a very serious problem.

- Bigger still, this is in the whole debate about what the EU itself should be : a free-market and nothing more (like GB, neo-liberals, the US and big business want...and needless to say, the ECB and the IMF) or should it be a deeper political union, with checks and balances, but also with real solidarity between the different areas?



Totally agree. We should have waited at least 10 pr 15 years before moving forward with expansion. The move was more political, to diminish Russia's influence but also I believe to undermine the chances of ever getting to a federal europe. This is why big business lobbies, GB and the US were pushing HARD for expansion.

@Reggie Rhodes


The thing is, everyone is catching up now on what has been going in Greece. But Greeks themselvs should remind everyone that corruption has always been around, including under right governments. That the so-called "chaos" in Greece did not stop Germany from doing a lot of business there, and if you study the Eurozone you realize it works because some countries are customers : Germany needs Greece, among others, to imports German goods. That's how Germany keeps it economy going, because the interior market is stagnant (yes, you guessed it : because of austerity measures). Also, Golden Sachs helped previous greek gvt to "work the books" in order to get into the eurozone. And the crisis was out of hand a long time before Syriza was even formed. This would be like blaming Obama for the war in Irak.

Wha people fail to understand, I thinlk, is just what Greece has ALREADY done : they have been doing ALL THE STUFF required by the IMF, ECB and Commission for YEARS now. And the situation has only gotten worse and worse, like every serious economist knows it would. Austerity policies cannot lead to growth, it's almost mathematically impossible. And now eldery people are dying, people don't have access to school, o medecine, to public transportation, to their pension, etc. How exactly are they supposed to create any kind of growth?

Syriza is asking to change the focus from just repaying the debt to actually investing in the future. Because, it MUST be repeated time and time again, 3/4 of all the money "given" to Greece never made it to Greece : it went straight in the French, German banks and the IMF. IMF already made 2.5 billion euros off the Greek debt.

So what Syriza is asking is that instead of having all that money go the banks, let's actually invest for the future with it. A sor of New-Deal if you will. Because how else do we create growth?





Actually, the EU IS a safety net. And if you actually read up on Greece and the crisis, as well as EU internal politics, you will understand why Tsipars and Syriza are being made examples of.

The fact is that the banks and the IMF don't need the money, and the ECB could easily negotiate with the IMF in order to cover up for Greece, and then organize an intra-European agreement with Greece in the long-term. This is not economical, it is a political game, a show of power by Merkel, the ECB, the IMF and banks. There is no economic founding to the way all of this is being handled by EU institutions. It's actually counter-productive, except for banks.
Dap, rep, excellent post :wow:
 

Liu Kang

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is it too late to buy protection from Greece defaulting? :heh:

CJPAjJsUkAAAacR.png


to put this simply a CDS (credit default swap, a product that was largely blamed for 2008) is essentially loan-default insurance. as you can see the cost of this insurance has sky rocketed.
What is the scale of the jump from 2000 to 16000 ? Looks like it went +700% since June 30th or something like that ?
Was that something you could buy ? :dwillhuh:
 

Domingo Halliburton

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What is the scale of the jump from 2000 to 16000 ? Looks like it went +700% since June 30th or something like that ?
Was that something you could buy ? :dwillhuh:

you have to be an institutional investor to buy that or something like that. they've defaulted so why would anyone insure investors against a Greek default? that's why it has skyrocketed.
 

mbewane

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is it too late to buy protection from Greece defaulting? :heh:

CJPAjJsUkAAAacR.png


to put this simply a CDS (credit default swap, a product that was largely blamed for 2008) is essentially loan-default insurance. as you can see the cost of this insurance has sky rocketed.

So who will be cashing in if Greece defaults? :patrice:
 
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