Concerning VIolence
Decolonizer
Secure Da Bag
Veteran
My authority is the same as yours.
lol! Hoteps will bite your head off with this posts. You had clowns telling me in one of my threads that black youths learning Spanish will BRAINWASH THEM and make them forget their blackness...
I kid you not.
lol! Hoteps will bite your head off with this posts. You had clowns telling me in one of my threads that black youths learning Spanish will BRAINWASH THEM and make them forget their blackness...
I didn't know learning spanish had that effect. They better hurry up and decode that Metu Neter, so we can reprogram them with that kemetic knowledge.LOL I figured it'd be them or the 'you just want somethin' exotical' penis police that'd have a problem with it.
And father of the year goes to...
LOL I figured it'd be them or the 'you just want somethin' exotical' penis police that'd have a problem with it.
^^Happened in this thread. Read at caution because your brain cells will drop.
mbewane
Knicks: 93 til infinity
I just realized : why do people discuss so much about the french language in Africa (not only in this thread), but not english? 
or portuguese? or arabic? the two first ones are just as european languages as french is, were both imposed by colonization as well, and the last one was also imposed by force at the detriment of local languages
or portuguese? or arabic? the two first ones are just as european languages as french is, were both imposed by colonization as well, and the last one was also imposed by force at the detriment of local languages
I just realized : why do people discuss so much about the french language in Africa (not only in this thread), but not english?
This is actually a very good point. I think this could open up a very nice discussion. I'm really glad you actually brought it up.
Arabic: Mostly spoken by North Africans and they be on that
, when talking about their African heritage. Honestly I think most people think of Sub-saharan Africa as the "real Africa" and North Africa and the Middle East as the Arab world, or more formally, the Arab League. In that sense Arabic doesn't really work. Also Arabic has many dialects that are considered their own language. Standard Arabic is based off the Quran but each Arab country will have its own version. Portuguese: In Africa you have four (5 if you count Equatorial Guinea, but they have Spanish and French as their official languages as well) that are Lusophone. Of those four, two are non-continental (Cabo Verde and Sao Tome and Principe). What you have left is Angola and Mozambique. Neither country, safe Angola to some degree is really a big player in African politics. Portuguese doesn't really widespread coverage on the continent. It's really Brazil that makes Portuguese a "black" language if you will and even then Brazilians be on that "I'm not black, I'm pardo"
. So Portuguese is out.So now, looking at the two heavyweights (English and French) I'll outline why I think French is discussed more than English, but first we have to look at the colonial styles of the French and English in Africa.
English - Indirect rule. They'd often appoint a local chief that could be easily controlled to serve as their mouth piece on ground. Their colonization was strictly economic. No more no less.
French - Direct rule. The French had a policy of "integration"/assimilation that essentially said, if you native Africans adopt the French language, culture and values, you will be Frenchmen and earn full French citizenship. Thus, you have these Africans that see French culture as a strong part of their identity (to a degree) and a longing to be French (safe DRC, as they were a Belgian colony).
That is just a quick snapshot but years later what happened as a result is you have the Francophone bloc, particularly in West Africa, that functions almost as a loose confederation of Francophone states. They share a common language (French) and even the same currency (the West African Franc, which by the way is pegged to the Euro). This is also the same for Central Africa as well.
Anglophone countries on the other hand are more dynamic, usually more economically developed and thus tend to operate a bit more independently. I'd say it's really only in East Africa with Kenya, Uganda, and Tanzania that you have more of a unified bloc largely due to Swahili as a language used in those countries.
mbewane
Knicks: 93 til infinity
Interesting. I disagree with some points.
Arabic : speaking of "real Africa" is a slippery rope towards essentialism, and it denies the historical links that predate Arabic invasion in Northern Africa imo. Also it agrees with the whole objective of Arabs, which is to integrate a deal of Africa in their area. I'm always suprised Africans (and I would suppose Black people), who usually are against any form of colonialism, have no problem with this. Also one shouldn't forget that up until the 70s Algiers for example was one of the main spots of panafricanism : first panafrican festival was held there in 69 (another one in 09), and it was hosting all kinds of revolutionnary and independence movements in the 60s, free of chage (even some Black Panthers ended up there). There is no "real Africa", just as there is no "real Europe", that's what extreme-rights parties try to sell us. There's Africa in all its diversity. The fact that some (not all) Northern Africans deny this doesn't change geography. Also the fact that they're in the Arab League doesn't negate the fact they're all in the African Union too. And the language, as you said, comes from the Quran, was imposed by outsiders during the invasions, crushing local languages (not local variants of Arab, but different languages altogether : tamashiq, berber, kabyle, etc). So I don't really see the difference with french, linguistically speaking.
Portuguese : again, the fact that only two "big" countries are lusophone doesn't really negate that it's there too a european language imposed by colonization, and for some reason we only focus on french.
I know all about francophone Africa being that I'm from there, (I don't know many who "long to be French", no more than others "long to be American", due to cultural "soft" power...and it's not the "Westren African Franc", it's the "Franc CFA", which has a western and central version, but is called "Franc CFA" everywhere). My point is that in these threads sometimes the argument is that french shouldn't be taught/learned/spoken by africans because it's a colonial language. All right, but english is too then indeed the argument is that english colonization was "better" and that anglophones countries are more dynamic. So the argument isn't linguistical anymore, it's economic now? So if francophone countries start to strive, will it be ok for them to keep french?
I find interesting that it's mostly anglophones who want french out, but have no problem with african speaking other colonial languages
Ironically one of the most prominent advocates for moving towards african languages and leaving colonial ones is Ngugi wa Thiong'o...from anglophone Kenya.
Arabic : speaking of "real Africa" is a slippery rope towards essentialism, and it denies the historical links that predate Arabic invasion in Northern Africa imo. Also it agrees with the whole objective of Arabs, which is to integrate a deal of Africa in their area. I'm always suprised Africans (and I would suppose Black people), who usually are against any form of colonialism, have no problem with this. Also one shouldn't forget that up until the 70s Algiers for example was one of the main spots of panafricanism : first panafrican festival was held there in 69 (another one in 09), and it was hosting all kinds of revolutionnary and independence movements in the 60s, free of chage (even some Black Panthers ended up there). There is no "real Africa", just as there is no "real Europe", that's what extreme-rights parties try to sell us. There's Africa in all its diversity. The fact that some (not all) Northern Africans deny this doesn't change geography. Also the fact that they're in the Arab League doesn't negate the fact they're all in the African Union too. And the language, as you said, comes from the Quran, was imposed by outsiders during the invasions, crushing local languages (not local variants of Arab, but different languages altogether : tamashiq, berber, kabyle, etc). So I don't really see the difference with french, linguistically speaking.
Portuguese : again, the fact that only two "big" countries are lusophone doesn't really negate that it's there too a european language imposed by colonization, and for some reason we only focus on french.
I know all about francophone Africa being that I'm from there, (I don't know many who "long to be French", no more than others "long to be American", due to cultural "soft" power...and it's not the "Westren African Franc", it's the "Franc CFA", which has a western and central version, but is called "Franc CFA" everywhere). My point is that in these threads sometimes the argument is that french shouldn't be taught/learned/spoken by africans because it's a colonial language. All right, but english is too
then indeed the argument is that english colonization was "better" and that anglophones countries are more dynamic. So the argument isn't linguistical anymore, it's economic now? So if francophone countries start to strive, will it be ok for them to keep french? I find interesting that it's mostly anglophones who want french out, but have no problem with african speaking other colonial languages
Ironically one of the most prominent advocates for moving towards african languages and leaving colonial ones is Ngugi wa Thiong'o...from anglophone Kenya.
Interesting. I disagree with some points.
Arabic : speaking of "real Africa" is a slippery rope towards essentialism, and it denies the historical links that predate Arabic invasion in Northern Africa imo. Also it agrees with the whole objective of Arabs, which is to integrate a deal of Africa in their area. I'm always suprised Africans (and I would suppose Black people), who usually are against any form of colonialism, have no problem with this. Also one shouldn't forget that up until the 70s Algiers for example was one of the main spots of panafricanism : first panafrican festival was held there in 69 (another one in 09), and it was hosting all kinds of revolutionnary and independence movements in the 60s, free of chage (even some Black Panthers ended up there). There is no "real Africa", just as there is no "real Europe", that's what extreme-rights parties try to sell us. There's Africa in all its diversity. The fact that some (not all) Northern Africans deny this doesn't change geography. Also the fact that they're in the Arab League doesn't negate the fact they're all in the African Union too. And the language, as you said, comes from the Quran, was imposed by outsiders during the invasions, crushing local languages (not local variants of Arab, but different languages altogether : tamashiq, berber, kabyle, etc). So I don't really see the difference with french, linguistically speaking.
Portuguese : again, the fact that only two "big" countries are lusophone doesn't really negate that it's there too a european language imposed by colonization, and for some reason we only focus on french.
I know all about francophone Africa being that I'm from there, (I don't know many who "long to be French", no more than others "long to be American", due to cultural "soft" power...and it's not the "Westren African Franc", it's the "Franc CFA", which has a western and central version, but is called "Franc CFA" everywhere). My point is that in these threads sometimes the argument is that french shouldn't be taught/learned/spoken by africans because it's a colonial language. All right, but english is too
I find interesting that it's mostly anglophones who want french out, but have no problem with african speaking other colonial languages
Ironically one of the most prominent advocates for moving towards african languages and leaving colonial ones is Ngugi wa Thiong'o...from anglophone Kenya.
At work right now so I'll have to carve out some time to respond.
But in regards to the Franc, I know it's called the CFA and that techinacally they are two seperate countries although they are essentially interchangable.
It's colloqiaully referred to as the West African franc (at least in Nigeria) to distinguish it from the Central African CFA. Either way we both understand my bringing that up (it's pegged to the Euro). It's semantics.
mbewane
Knicks: 93 til infinity
No doubt, just that in francophone Africa it's never referred to as anything else than "Franc CFA" (whether in CEMAC or in UEMOA), just thought I'd be precise about it.
Alright, let me take a 2nd stab at your point as to why another colonial language isn’t discussed as widely as French.
First, I take it that most people on the Coli in the African diaspora are from Anglophone countries. So, in that, there’s no real need to learn English, they/we already speak it.
Now, geographically, Arabic as a language in Africa is relatively self-contained within North Africa, which is a bloc on its own. From a cultural and geographic standpoint that is far removed from Sub-saharan Africa. Yes, those Arabian countries are also in the AU, but at the same time their politics and alliances are very different from that of the rest of the African continent.
Portuguese just doesn’t have as much scale or utility. As a Nigerian, there are only two Lusophone country in the entire 15 country bloc of ECOWAS (Economic Community of West African States). Whereas there are 8 francophone countries (who often vote as a collective within the ECOWAS chambers). So, there’s a greater advantage for an Anglophone speaker to learn French. It’s a case as the best of the rest.
A side note: I think there’s a large cultural aspect of it in sports as well. I mean just look at the French National soccer team. Pogba, Kante, Bakayoko, Sidibe, Mendy, Sissoko, Matuidi etc. These guys are “French” but there is no denying their roots are firmly African.
mbewane
Knicks: 93 til infinity
Good points, even though I don't really agree with the whole "North Africa is a block on its own". Morocco has been at odds with Algeria for decades, which as I stated earlier was a big spot for panafricanism until lately. Also the perceived distance between North Africa and the rest should be examined more closely, for example one of the main confréries in Sénégal (Tijaniya) has roots in both Morocco and Algeria. Morocco has been pushing HARD these past years towards the rest of Africa Royal Air Maroc, Attijariwafa bank, offering scholarships to students, etc) so more and more their politics are linked to the rest of Africa. For good reason : arabic countries (meaning countries of the Arab peninsula) usually look down on northern african countries, just like any center looks down onto its (conquered) margins. And also lest we forget there are significant parts of those countries that are Black, but underrepresented.
I agree with the rest, but my point is that some brehs here think that Africa should get rid of french because it's a colonial language, while not adressing, for example, english. Obviously other factors come into that way of thinking, and I can't help but think that it's remnants of anglophone vs francophone talk. As you correctly pointed out, learning french for a Nigerian can be an advantage to do business with neighbouring countries, just as learning english for a Béninois can be an advantage to do business with Nigeria. That's what I'm really looking at in these discussions : languages are there and a good tool to connect over borders, might as well use them. The whole "let's get rid of colonial languages" doesn't really make sense to me, especially when it's conveniently aimed at only one of them.
This of course doesn't mean that local languages shouldn't be taught, promoted, spoken : they should be, but languages are not mutually exclusive, as any polyglott knows.
I’ll put this out there: I’m not too well versed in Arabic politics outside of the news I hear about the middle east every now and then. The latest move I know regarding North African countries and SS African countries in regard to alliances is Morocco vying for citizenship in ECOWAS (a move I strongly oppose for various reasons but the biggest being that Morocco has an economic/trade agreement with the EU which could open the door for the EU to dump goods in ECOWAS using Morocco as it’s “in”)
As per people wanting to remove French but not English, again, it points to the style of colonization in my opinion and the control the French still have is Francophone Africa (again, back to the CFA being pegged to the Euro). The French were direct and in your face. The English, to a lesser extent. Again, the Anglophone countries are fairing much better than their Francophone counterparts.
Now, while I do agree about promoting native languages, I recognize the burden that would be on the state. First, the language would have to be standardized in both written and spoken form. All official documents would need to be translated and you would need to create an infrastructure within society to have the local language incentivized. However, the biggest issue, I think, is in deciding which language you select as the “official” local language.
In Nigeria alone, we have over 200 languages give or take. The official language is English, but Hausa, Yoruba and Igbo are recognized as official languages due to them being the larger recognized groups ethnic. If you pick one of those 3 as the official language of Nigeria you would run into some very very heated social debates. Best thing to do is leave English as the official “neutral” language. I would imagine many other African countries face this issue of wide spread linguistic heterogeneity. In that case, it’s best to pick a “neutral” language. English and French.