For those voting Tuesday for the 2 Parties...

Propaganda

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My money has gone to war and conflicts around the world without consent when I voted. You didn't mention that either. No one is picking for me b/c my choice was to stay home. You assume too much without actual facts surrounding your viewpoint.

The voting still goes on if I decide to choose a third party or not to vote at all. It's the masses who have to make a choice in their decision to enjoy the rest of their lives voting for those who have been handpicked by the elite with unlimited voting campaign funds or want a voting reform.

You are stuck in your box...keep it moving.

your money has gone a lot of places without your consent. there's not a national referendum every time a decision is made by the government.

no one is picking for you if you don't choose to vote? what are you talking about? how do think leaders get elected without your say in it then? magic? :dwillhuh:

kiddo, you need to get with reality. you are a part of the "masses" you try to look down upon. you're an american citizen just like them. you have to live with the decisions of the electorate just like everyone else.

stuck in a box...heh. listen, be one of those libertarian/ct'er type of guys all you want. you just need to drop the delusion and get over yourself. realize that being in that camp doesn't make you some magnanimous genius who operates on a higher level of understanding. you're stuck in a box just like you accuse everyone else of being. except your box is filled with alternative media, nefarious agendas, arrogance, evil puppetmasters, extreme distrust, etc.
 

bsmooth

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No one has any real counterpoints to what was presented. Only argument back is that its a wasted vote. I mean its clear the only thing these two candidates agree on and didn't even have to debate about is issues regarding civil liberties.

Stay occupied with stupid rhetoric about abortions, gay marriage and foreign policy when nothing really changes including your rights being stripped away
 

TrueEpic08

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your money has gone a lot of places without your consent. there's not a national referendum every time a decision is made by the government.

no one is picking for you if you don't choose to vote? what are you talking about? how do think leaders get elected without your say in it then? magic? :dwillhuh:

kiddo, you need to get with reality. you are a part of the "masses" you try to look down upon. you're an american citizen just like them. you have to live with the decisions of the electorate just like everyone else.

stuck in a box...heh. listen, be one of those libertarian/ct'er type of guys all you want. you just need to drop the delusion and get over yourself. realize that being in that camp doesn't make you some magnanimous genius who operates on a higher level of understanding. you're stuck in a box just like you accuse everyone else of being. except your box is filled with alternative media, nefarious agendas, arrogance, evil puppetmasters, extreme distrust, etc.

I'm just responding to this because its the most recent post, but there's a lot of reductionist arguments on here against a retreat from majoritarian democracy that basically boils down to the typical "lesser of two evils," "our identity is the same as Obama's so we have to vote," "this is our reality so we have to live with it no matter how odious and how much it alienates our will as determinant human beings from us," etc., etc.

The fact is that not a lot of people are willing to envision a change to the system due to the fact that they've known nothing other than it and its spectacle, and that orders our thoughts towards what democracy is, when, in fact, this is the youngest, most deferred form of "democracy" on the planet.

But that's more general. Let me address some specific questions:

1). How have Blacks not voting helped us?

Wrong question to ask. One, because it assumes a collection of people taxonomized under the sign of a single identity that eliminates any difference (no matter what we actually are or what the real-time lived experiences of our lives are, we're Black, right?), which is a huge, huge problem when applied to the way in which we see and critique Obama. Two, because it immediately presupposes the efficacy of voting as the orthodox position where the burden of proof is on those opposing to come up with a counter to it, which when put into the context that you put it in, is near impossible.

Here's a question for you: Name a decision on an issue that was fully constructed, argued out and resolved through the majoritarian vote in the United States, rather than just through proxies so far removed from us they reveal themselves to be more independent oligarchs than actual representatives (Note: The answer is not many, if any at all really, for a reason that the very fount of electoral systems studies).

2). How is voting not beneficial?

Read above, but also read this quote:

"In proportion as the mass of citizens who possess political rights increases, and the number of elected ruler’s increases, the actual power is concentrated and becomes the monopoly of a smaller and smaller group of individuals."

Rep to the first person who can tell me who said it.

3).
Ok, the two party system is slavery... but what does that have to do with not voting for the side that will sh1t on people with student loans, or put into place supreme court justices that will vote wrong on landmark issues, or will be slightly more war hawkish due to party pressure, or will blatantly sh1t on the poor even more so than the other guy.

AT this point we know Obama isn't 'black peoples' president, but damn why can't we at least vote him back in, if for no other reason than to not have the only half black pres. not be one-termed.

We are stuck in this system, with not enough people motivated for true revolution... So at this point our option is to put Obama back in and hope that he was a sleeper that will actually do something in the next four years

Representative of the attitudes that I just wrote about, the worst of which is a dismissal of two of his own points, just because we supposedly share a fundamental identity with Obama (we don't, it's all taxonomy that we give value to) and because the other guy is representative of a side of the dominant value system that we hate more. No thought outside of the bounds of general discourse.

4).
At least vote for a 3rd party, dont let these people disenfranchise you

And I like @Kool G Trap too, like others I'm critiquing, but this needs to be addressed. One, if you saw the third party debate, then you'd know that they don't really pose much of a real counter to dominant discourse, but just the fringes of the discourse that orders our political lives. Two, it's only disenfranchisement if you define political action as voting or nothing else generally. Like I said, you don't think societies had other methods of resolving societal issues before majoritarian democracy was developed? Or did the very concept of civil society period, rather than a mere conception of it, come into being with the development of majoritarian democracy in Antiquity.

I could go on endlessly, but I'm stopping here, because this will go on forever otherwise.

Edit: Oh, and the OP forgot the Justice Department's stringent criminalization of IP abuse, which they define as anything that could even remotely cut into the profits of businesses, even if it is expanding the knowledge base of society. From filesharing to the development of generic drugs to the development of reading materials for the disabled, Obama and his administration have taken the most regressive position on this, pretty much ever, both here and in its international relations. Remember, Obama pushed SOPA, PIPA and ACTA.

Just thought that would be important, since we care about filesharing so much on here.
 
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88m3

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I LOVE YOU OBAMA; THANK YOU FOR EVERYTHING YOU HAVE DONE FOR PEOPLE MY AGE.
 

Julius Skrrvin

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And I like Kool G Trap too, like others I'm critiquing, but this needs to be addressed. One, if you saw the third party debate, then you'd know that they don't really pose much of a real counter to dominant discourse, but just the fringes of the discourse that orders our political lives. Two, it's only disenfranchisement if you define political action as voting or nothing else generally. Like I said, you don't think societies had other methods of resolving societal issues before majoritarian democracy was developed? Or did the very concept of civil society period, rather than a mere conception of it, come into being with the development of majoritarian democracy in Antiquity.

I could go on endlessly, but I'm stopping here, because this will go on forever otherwise.
I don't define disenfranchisement as nonvoting, but I do have to scoff at those who continue to complain and refuse to vote. I recognize that everyone has a right to conscientiously abstain from the process, maybe even based upon a legitimately well crafted argument, but I essentially take every step i can to shame people (:lolbron:) from doing so.

as for other methods, yes, there are, but they require even more decisive action than voting and oftimes my suspicions are that nonvoters aren't overly concerned with political action in the first place.
 
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According to you neither party cares about the people now, so how would not voting remove our influence? Wouldn't the parties just latch on to the people who are still voting and continue to push their selfish agendas?

:what:

When did the Parties care for the people other than when it's time to vote? Sorry without the masses...a few people still voting would be useless.
 

OG Talk

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So he is black.....and? Doesn't change anything from above. Now explain to me what is better Black Face White Supremacy or White Supremacy?

:ohhh:


I'm just gonna take this ether and keep it moving...

:ld:

Ain't no logical response to refrute what you're saying here...
 
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I'm just responding to this because its the most recent post, but there's a lot of reductionist arguments on here against a retreat from majoritarian democracy that basically boils down to the typical "lesser of two evils," "our identity is the same as Obama's so we have to vote," "this is our reality so we have to live with it no matter how odious and how much it alienates our will as determinant human beings from us," etc., etc.

The fact is that not a lot of people are willing to envision a change to the system due to the fact that they've known nothing other than it and its spectacle, and that orders our thoughts towards what democracy is, when, in fact, this is the youngest, most deferred form of "democracy" on the planet.

But that's more general. Let me address some specific questions:

1). How have Blacks not voting helped us?

Wrong question to ask. One, because it assumes a collection of people taxonomized under the sign of a single identity that eliminates any difference (no matter what we actually are or what the real-time lived experiences of our lives are, we're Black, right?), which is a huge, huge problem when applied to the way in which we see and critique Obama. Two, because it immediately presupposes the efficacy of voting as the orthodox position where the burden of proof is on those opposing to come up with a counter to it, which when put into the context that you put it in, is near impossible.

Here's a question for you: Name a decision on an issue that was fully constructed, argued out and resolved through the majoritarian vote in the United States, rather than just through proxies so far removed from us they reveal themselves to be more independent oligarchs than actual representatives (Note: The answer is not many, if any at all really, for a reason that the very fount of electoral systems studies).

2). How is voting not beneficial?

Read above, but also read this quote:

"In proportion as the mass of citizens who possess political rights increases, and the number of elected ruler’s increases, the actual power is concentrated and becomes the monopoly of a smaller and smaller group of individuals."

Rep to the first person who can tell me who said it.

3).

Representative of the attitudes that I just wrote about, the worst of which is a dismissal of two of his own points, just because we supposedly share a fundamental identity with Obama (we don't, it's all taxonomy that we give value to) and because the other guy is representative of a side of the dominant value system that we hate more. No thought outside of the bounds of general discourse.

4).

And I like @Kool G Trap too, like others I'm critiquing, but this needs to be addressed. One, if you saw the third party debate, then you'd know that they don't really pose much of a real counter to dominant discourse, but just the fringes of the discourse that orders our political lives. Two, it's only disenfranchisement if you define political action as voting or nothing else generally. Like I said, you don't think societies had other methods of resolving societal issues before majoritarian democracy was developed? Or did the very concept of civil society period, rather than a mere conception of it, come into being with the development of majoritarian democracy in Antiquity.

I could go on endlessly, but I'm stopping here, because this will go on forever otherwise.

Edit: Oh, and the OP forgot the Justice Department's stringent criminalization of IP abuse, which they define as anything that could even remotely cut into the profits of businesses, even if it is expanding the knowledge base of society. From filesharing to the development of generic drugs to the development of reading materials for the disabled, Obama and his administration have taken the most regressive position on this, pretty much ever, both here and in its international relations. Remember, Obama pushed SOPA, PIPA and ACTA.

Just thought that would be important, since we care about filesharing so much on here.

Great viewpoint and post.
 
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MeachTheMonster

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1). How have Blacks not voting helped us?

Wrong question to ask. One, because it assumes a collection of people taxonomized under the sign of a single identity that eliminates any difference (no matter what we actually are or what the real-time lived experiences of our lives are, we're Black, right?), which is a huge, huge problem when applied to the way in which we see and critique Obama. Two, because it immediately presupposes the efficacy of voting as the orthodox position where the burden of proof is on those opposing to come up with a counter to it, which when put into the context that you put it in, is near impossible.

So instead if answering my question you attack the question. You sound like a politician. If your stance is that people shouldn't vote, then tell me how will that benefit me?

Here's a question for you: Name a decision on an issue that was fully constructed, argued out and resolved through the majoritarian vote in the United States, rather than just through proxies so far removed from us they reveal themselves to be more independent oligarchs than actual representatives (Note: The answer is not many, if any at all really, for a reason that the very fount of electoral systems studies).
Most issues are resolved through the majoritarian vote, it would be impossible for all citizens to be involved in all matters which is why we elect government officials to represent us. Those officials don't always do what we want them to do, but i don't see how NOT voting will get them to do what I want them to do either.

2). How is voting not beneficial?

Read above, but also read this quote:

"In proportion as the mass of citizens who possess political rights increases, and the number of elected ruler’s increases, the actual power is concentrated and becomes the monopoly of a smaller and smaller group of individuals."

That quote means nothing. Again How will NOT voting help me?
3).

Representative of the attitudes that I just wrote about, the worst of which is a dismissal of two of his own points, just because we supposedly share a fundamental identity with Obama (we don't, it's all taxonomy that we give value to) and because the other guy is representative of a side of the dominant value system that we hate more. No thought outside of the bounds of general discourse.
It has nothing to do with skin color. Obama was born to a middle class family, he went to college and he started his career from the bottom as most of us do. And as most politicians dont. This is what makes him one of us, not his skin color.
4).
And I like @Kool G Trap too, like others I'm critiquing, but this needs to be addressed. One, if you saw the third party debate, then you'd know that they don't really pose much of a real counter to dominant discourse, but just the fringes of the discourse that orders our political lives. Two, it's only disenfranchisement if you define political action as voting or nothing else generally. Like I said, you don't think societies had other methods of resolving societal issues before majoritarian democracy was developed? Or did the very concept of civil society period, rather than a mere conception of it, come into being with the development of majoritarian democracy in Antiquity.

One more time. How will NOT voting help us achieve these goals. I agree that there is a problem with the two party system, but how will NOT voting fix the problem?

Edit: Oh, and the OP forgot the Justice Department's stringent criminalization of IP abuse, which they define as anything that could even remotely cut into the profits of businesses, even if it is expanding the knowledge base of society. From filesharing to the development of generic drugs to the development of reading materials for the disabled, Obama and his administration have taken the most regressive position on this, pretty much ever, both here and in its international relations. Remember, Obama pushed SOPA, PIPA and ACTA.

Just thought that would be important, since we care about filesharing so much on here.

It's easy to pick single issues to criticize any politician. No two people will ever agree on everything, and no one person will solve/address all the issues that you want addressed. Reality is in America you have no choice but to contribute. You go to work, you pay taxes. Your taxes go on to pay government salaries and to support whatever decisions they make. You support these politicians whether you like it or not. You have no choice in the matter. The only choice you have is who you support. Either you can make that decision, or others will make it for you. It's that simple.
 
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MeachTheMonster

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:what:

When did the Parties care for the people other than when it's time to vote? Sorry without the masses...a few people still voting would be useless.

You can't remove the masses. We could all stop voting, but we still pay taxes, we still pay their salaries. They will still make decisions and the few people voting would hold power over the masses.
 

DerrtySouthpaw

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thats a cool story or whatever but the fukk i look like just letting the people i DONT AGREE WITH have the keys to the crib? imma take my chance with the lesser evil
 
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