Feminists keeping it classy at Toronto mens event.

The Real

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Completely and utterly false. Feminism has never, ever been about providing a safe space for men, ever. Look what happens when men try to create their own space in one of the most successful democracies on earth


SFU Men's Centre - YouTube

Looks like you don't know anything about feminism but what you've learned from bitter, damaged MRAs. One video does little for your argument, especially an example that comes from the one of the few areas in society where women out-represent men. That's like using the fact that there are more successful Black rappers than white rappers to argue that white people are being treated poorly in society, or that they should get special treatment.
 
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Looks like you don't know anything about feminism but what you've learned from bitter, damaged MRAs. One video does little for your argument, especially an example that comes from the one of the few areas in society where women out-represent men. That's like using the fact that there are more successful Black rappers than white rappers to argue that white people are being treated poorly in society, or that they should get special treatment.


:wtf:
 

Insensitive

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Men and Women rights aside those people
were acting like complete and utter jack asses not to mention they
were totally ignorant to what they were protesting.
 
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:snooze:

Either argue or don't, but if you are, come with some stats and not anecdotes and rigged examples. Nothing about your example proves that feminism as a whole is negative.


Everything that has been presented to you, you simply say "Patriarchy hurts men too" You(and feminists) have created quite a nice little logical out for yourselves. I will leave this for you.

 
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Those who are part of the men's rights movement are loons, because they believe that the custody issue is a microcosm of society's treatment of men on the whole, and also misrepresent much of the issue using doctored stats and facts. In addition, they also ignore the wealth of empirical studies about women as parents that are used by the courts to justify their decisions, instead of actively dealing with them.

The reasonable men dealing with that same issue, on the other hand, recognize that patriarchy is at the root of their problem, too, since it is those same patriarchally-created gender roles that stereotype women as the supposedly-natural caretakers of children at men's expense, thus biasing the courts towards them. The studies indicating that women are "better" caretakers are themselves the product of a patriarchal society in which caretaking as a set of techniques and expectations was imposed on/invested in women and not men, so it makes perfect sense. There is a real irony in men's rights advocates, who constantly complain about women leaving their "proper" place in the home and losing their "femininity" then complaining when the courts act on that same stereotype (and the reality it has produced) and give women the custody of the children. In other words, the good activists working on that issue are part of the feminist movement.

One of the things some men fail to realize about feminism is that it always included space for dealing with what men have to suffer from the patriarchal standards they themselves set up. In the same way that James Baldwin and Frantz Fanon talked about the inadvertent problems experienced by white folks at the hands of their own racial construct, there have always been feminists who talk about men's problems. Another great example of this is the case of male domestic violence victims. The only people I know really working on that issue are feminist organizations, because they know and understand that patriarchy is precisely part of why there is a culture of silence around that issue- men aren't supposed to be victims of violence and abuse according to our gender roles. You might see men's rights groups complaining about male domestic violence as a way to try and lash out at feminists, but all the latest research, advocacy, and support programs for male victims are coming from feminist organizations, not from mens' groups. Many of these orgs have working groups for and led by men. Having done some activist work on race issues, I have seen this firsthand in a number of places.

Unfortunately, the stereotype of feminism propogated by mens' rights people is of a destructive and extremist camp that only wants to demonize men rather than engage productively with them, and so that minority of extremists are the feminists you see constantly portrayed in patriarchal or mens' rights-oriented media like the video in the OP.

hands down the absolute best written post I have seen on this forum.
 

GoddamnyamanProf

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Men's rights advocates are the exact equivalent of white people who complain about anti-white racism all the time.
Yup, and often the same guys preaching both. Stems from a feeling of powerlessness or failure in their own personal lives, so they rationalize it by playing victim and deducing that straight, white, Conservative men have secretly become the oppressed minority in society.
 
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Yup, and often the same guys preaching both. Stems from a feeling of powerlessness or failure in their own personal lives, so they rationalize it by playing victim and deducing that straight, white, Conservative men have secretly become the oppressed minority in society.

I think you(and other men's right opponents) are conflating two issues here. Yes, middle aged white conservative men, do play the "oppressed white male meme" way too much, and it is usually uninformed and misdirected. I will also concede that a lot of these same men have attached themselves to the MRA and are bringing that issue to the table. However, the MRA is nonpartisan and is for reducing cultural misandry that affects all men.

With that being said, it is easy for critics to laugh, and patronise the issue of the "oppressed white male" because it is politically correct to view heterosexual white males as the uber class. However, that is not what is happening to working class white males. This is a classism issue. If we look at working class white males under 35 - they have been raised in multicultural society that values people from all backgrounds, race, gender, etc. They went to schools that preached the values of feminism and multiculturalism, and they completely bought into those values.

They were also told that white males are racist, privileged, contributed to rape culture, and are the cause of all of the earths problems, and they bought that too. So, you have a demographic of young, working class white men who are, sensitive, creative, non racist and gender inclusive. Then they go out into the real world. And their lived experiences are completely different from what gynocentric culture tells them.

Higher education is hostile towards them. They can't find decent and well paying jobs. Health care is not inclusive towards them. They are more likely to kill themselves. They are most likely to suffer from depression. They are more likely to be homeless. And what does feminism tell them to do when they live these experiences?

Man up. Check your privilege.

I want to make it clear that this is not a issue effecting upper middle class and rich white males. But working class and poor white males are suffering. They are suffering and also being told that they are racist, potential rapist, contribute to rape culture and are privileged, which goes against everything that they have lived. It is the opposite of their lived experiences. We need to address this issue and address it quickly because working class Y generation white males are becoming increasingly frustrated in a society that throws them in the trash.

The education system used to mostly fail black men, now, it is failing both black men and working class white males. That is why you see these two demographics becoming MRA's more than anyone else.

College campuses will burn in the next decade if this issue is ignored.

Feminism has, and always will do a horrible job of addressing classism. I am getting sick of Ivy Leauge educated white women trying to direct and monopolize the lives of black and working class white men.
 

The Real

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I think you(and other men's right opponents) are conflating two issues here. Yes, middle aged white conservative men, do play the "oppressed white male meme" way too much, and it is usually uninformed and misdirected. I will also concede that a lot of these same men have attached themselves to the MRA and are bringing that issue to the table. However, the MRA is nonpartisan and is for reducing cultural misandry that affects all men.

With that being said, it is easy for critics to laugh, and patronise the issue of the "oppressed white male" because it is politically correct to view heterosexual white males as the uber class. However, that is not what is happening to working class white males. This is a classism issue. If we look at working class white males under 35 - they have been raised in multicultural society that values people from all backgrounds, race, gender, etc. They went to schools that preached the values of feminism and multiculturalism, and they completely bought into those values.

They were also told that white males are racist, privileged, contributed to rape culture, and are the cause of all of the earths problems, and they bought that too. So, you have a demographic of young, working class white men who are, sensitive, creative, non racist and gender inclusive. Then they go out into the real world. And they're lived experiences are completely different from what gynocentric culture tells them.

Higher education is hostile towards them. They can't find decent and well paying jobs. Health care is not inclusive towards them. They are more likely to kill themselves. They are most likely to suffer from depression. They are more likely to be homeless. And what does feminism tell them to do when they live these experiences?

Man up. Check your privilege.

I want to make it clear that this is not a issue affecting upper middle class and rich white males. But working class and poor white males are suffering. They are suffering and also being told that they are racist, potential rapist, contribute to rape culture and are privileged, which goes against everything that they have lived. It is the opposite of their lived experiences. We need to address this issue and address it quickly because working class Y generation white males are becoming increasingly frustrated in a society that throws them in the trash.

The education system used to mostly fail black men, now, it is failing both black men and working class white males. That is why you see these two demographics becoming MRA's more than anyone else.

College campuses will burn in the next decade if this issue is ignored.

Feminism has, and always will do a horrible job of addressing classism. I am getting sick of Ivy Leauge educated white women trying to direct and monopolize the lives of black and working class white men.

I notice you're slipping race and racism in there with the rest. Are you suggesting that that racism comes mostly from upper-class whites, and that white, working-class culture is completely multicultural and embraces racial diversity, so working-class whites are being unfairly victimized by critiques of white privilege and racism? If so, you have a seriously incorrect understanding of modern racial dynamics.
 

Zapp Brannigan

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:what:

Why would you post a picture of the exact table I used in my calculations as if it was new information that would discredit me? Now I really think you didn't read my posts at all. If this table is acceptable grist for the mill for you, then you have conceded my calculations.





Convenient to paste all this stuff in here, but I can address it. First, though, you need to explain how the author arrived at the final numbers after starting with the initial numbers. The method here is not transparent in the least. I explained myself at every step of the way. You need to do the same, or I have no reason to give any credence to the conclusions.

Oh, man, you have a hard time understanding statistics, don't you? It really isn't surprising, seeing as how you actually think that 1/3 women are sexual assault victims. Your analysis of the statistic you had ignored all of the factors that I brought up before, not that you'd take them into account anyway seeing as how it'd go against your narrative and how they're all based off of assumptions that you have no proof of.

Here is why your 1/3 women are sexual assault victims statistic is completely wrong, by the way:

Rape Statistics: Are 1 in 4 women raped? Skeptical analysis. | AspiringEconomist.com

Pseduo-intellectuals You believe this to be true or at the very least push others to believe that this is true because it makes rape look like a much more prevalent and dire issue that the we are dealing with as a society. You sensationalize the statistics in order to mislead people, much in the same thread as your baseless analysis of the statistics regarding abuse, then you act as if my pointing out numbers from the Department of Health and Human services was something that's unsubstantiated and unproven.

We're all aware of your type: The male internet feminist that has the air of self-importance about his posts and tries to write in a high-brow manner and hurl ad-hominem attacks at MRAs with skewed statistics based on hard polling data from credible government or research and development sources baseless assumptions about the parties involved and the corresponding numbers and completely disregarding the rest of the points brought up in people that give you a counter argument.

Now you're probably wondering: Why are men online so pissed off about this? Doesn't it ever bother you to have it automatically assumed that you're a rapist just because you're a man living in a society that's been hoodwinked into thinking that 1/3 women are rape victims? Doesn't it bother you to be overly scrutinized as a man if you're about to do anything involving kids? Don't you get tired of hearing the phrase, "man up" from a woman that says you should do extremely dangerous or physically taxing things that you don't have to, and that you know that she wouldn't? Let me guess: It's a burden that you bear with a great deal of humblesmug and flowery bullshyt that you perpetuate in the HL section here, right?

Gonna have to try harder than you have been! :gladbron:
 

The Real

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Oh, man, you have a hard time understanding statistics, don't you? It really isn't surprising, seeing as how you actually think that 1/3 women are sexual assault victims. Your analysis of the statistic you had ignored all of the factors that I brought up before, not that you'd take them into account anyway seeing as how it'd go against your narrative and how they're all based off of assumptions that you have no proof of.

Here is why your 1/3 women are sexual assault victims statistic is completely wrong, by the way:

Rape Statistics: Are 1 in 4 women raped? Skeptical analysis. | AspiringEconomist.com

Pseduo-intellectuals You believe this to be true or at the very least push others to believe that this is true because it makes rape look like a much more prevalent and dire issue that the we are dealing with as a society. You sensationalize the statistics in order to mislead people, much in the same thread as your baseless analysis of the statistics regarding abuse, then you act as if my pointing out numbers from the Department of Health and Human services was something that's unsubstantiated and unproven.

We're all aware of your type: The male internet feminist that has the air of self-importance about his posts and tries to write in a high-brow manner and hurl ad-hominem attacks at MRAs with skewed statistics based on hard polling data from credible government or research and development sources baseless assumptions about the parties involved and the corresponding numbers and completely disregarding the rest of the points brought up in people that give you a counter argument.

Now you're probably wondering: Why are men online so pissed off about this? Doesn't it ever bother you to have it automatically assumed that you're a rapist just because you're a man living in a society that's been hoodwinked into thinking that 1/3 women are rape victims? Doesn't it bother you to be overly scrutinized as a man if you're about to do anything involving kids? Don't you get tired of hearing the phrase, "man up" from a woman that says you should do extremely dangerous or physically taxing things that you don't have to, and that you know that she wouldn't? Let me guess: It's a burden that you bear with a great deal of humblesmug and flowery bullshyt that you perpetuate in the HL section here, right?

Gonna have to try harder than you have been! :gladbron:


This is a rant of ad-hominem and armchair psychoanalysis that addresses literally nothing from my last post. We can talk about the 1/3 stat after you're done defending yourself, unless you want to abandon and concede the current debate. Otherwise, you're not getting off the hook for that last post you're trying to avoid.

1. You didn't address the point that you posted the exact same stats I used in my calculations as if they were new info that would defeat me (and are still claiming I fabricated numbers despite tacitly conceding that you accept the numbers I used by reposting them.) :snoop:

2. I asked for the step-by-step method by which those numbers at the end of your pasted wall of text were derived. You didn't post them. My guess is you yourself aren't sure, since you just pasted that large block of text in from reddit and didn't do the work yourself. Prove me wrong.
 

Zapp Brannigan

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This is a rant of ad-hominem and armchair psychoanalysis that addresses literally nothing from my last post. We can talk about the 1/3 stat after you're done defending yourself, unless you want to abandon and concede the current debate. Otherwise, you're not getting off the hook for that last post you're trying to avoid.

1. You didn't address the point that you posted the exact same stats I used in my calculations as if they were new info that would defeat me (and are still claiming I fabricated numbers despite tacitly conceding that you accept the numbers I used by reposting them.) :snoop:

2. I asked for the step-by-step method by which those numbers at the end of your pasted wall of text were derived. You didn't post them. My guess is you yourself aren't sure, since you just pasted that large block of text in from reddit and didn't do the work yourself. Prove me wrong.

You did blatantly fabricate the numbers through your analysis, read it again. I explained how your numbers were based entirely off of assumptions and your final numbers failed to take lots of external factors into account. But hey, if you want to ignore that I said that in order to be able to sleep better at night, go ahead and ignore the rest of the statistics that I posted and forget everything else I said regarding your abuse statistics, or all of the other stuff I wrote regarding all of the pseudo-intellectual dribble you wrote. It's not ad-hominem for me to call you out for these things if I've been providing tons of statistics that go against what you said, told you why your analysis was bad, and you failed to counter the many, many other things that I pointed out to you.

No, instead you'll just try and cling to one point based on hazy numbers (despite my explaining to you why they were bad) and ignore everything else I said before and after with, "PROVE ME WRONG I CAN'T HEAR YOU!! YOU'RE AN MRA!!! NA-NA-NA-NA-NA!!!!"


:yeshrug: I really hope you come out of this fog. I hate seeing men willingly throw themselves under the bus like this in such a state of abject denial.
 
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