Feminists keeping it classy at Toronto mens event.

[TrueEpic08]

A lot of Black men see the woman of color (Womanist) movement of Black women to be some betrayal of Black men and the Black Power movement of the 70s. The problem is that they don't realize the implications that it was betrayal of Black men is exactly the reason why the spin-off movement was necessary. For the most part, a lot of the Black Power movement was extremely male focused, even down to the pamphlets and protest. It was about getting back Black men's manhood. Nothing wrong with that, but coupled with the treatment of women at times during the movement and its negligence of specifically female issues, the Womanist movement was necessary. It wasn't even really about breaking free from the Black Power movement as much as having a separate one that addressed specifically female issues like sexism and misogyny against BW.

There are a lot of accounts from BW within the BP movement about the sexism they faced at the hands of some prominent leaders unfortunately. I remember watching one interview on it some years ago back in college and the woman said basically Black women weren't trying to trade in one master (white folks) for another (Black men). Although that sounds a little extreme, I can only imagine what it felt like being treated like a second class citizen within a movement that was supposed to be trying to free you from that.

Do you have anything that we could read or watch?

 

[Hiphoplives4eva]

Feminism will ultimately lead to the destruction of traditional roles of both men and women in this society as far as im concerned. Feminism has gone from a much needed pro-woman's movement to an anti-men movement. Its fairly disturbing if you ask me. Another popular movement within so called "progressive" circles.

And by looking at the video the only group being "extreme" in that video were the women and the "friend-zone ass nikkas" that were accompanying them.

Disturbing video nonetheless.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Those who are part of the men's rights movement are loons, because they believe that the custody issue is a microcosm of society's treatment of men on the whole, and also misrepresent much of the issue using doctored stats and facts. In addition, they also ignore the wealth of empirical studies about women as parents that are used by the courts to justify their decisions, instead of actively dealing with them.

The reasonable men dealing with that same issue, on the other hand, recognize that patriarchy is at the root of their problem, too, since it is those same patriarchally-created gender roles that stereotype women as the supposedly-natural caretakers of children at men's expense, thus biasing the courts towards them. The studies indicating that women are "better" caretakers are themselves the product of a patriarchal society in which caretaking as a set of techniques and expectations was imposed on/invested in women and not men, so it makes perfect sense. There is a real irony in men's rights advocates, who constantly complain about women leaving their "proper" place in the home and losing their "femininity" then complaining when the courts act on that same stereotype (and the reality it has produced) and give women the custody of the children. In other words, the good activists working on that issue are part of the feminist movement.

One of the things some men fail to realize about feminism is that it always included space for dealing with what men have to suffer from the patriarchal standards they themselves set up. In the same way that James Baldwin and Frantz Fanon talked about the inadvertent problems experienced by white folks at the hands of their own racial construct, there have always been feminists who talk about men's problems. Another great example of this is the case of male domestic violence victims. The only people I know really working on that issue are feminist organizations, because they know and understand that patriarchy is precisely part of why there is a culture of silence around that issue- men aren't supposed to be victims of violence and abuse according to our gender roles. You might see men's rights groups complaining about male domestic violence as a way to try and lash out at feminists, but all the latest research, advocacy, and support programs for male victims are coming from feminist organizations, not from mens' groups. Many of these orgs have working groups for and led by men. Having done some activist work on race issues, I have seen this firsthand in a number of places.

Unfortunately, the stereotype of feminism propogated by mens' rights people is of a destructive and extremist camp that only wants to demonize men rather than engage productively with them, and so that minority of extremists are the feminists you see constantly portrayed in patriarchal or mens' rights-oriented media like the video in the OP.

How is it not a microcosm on how men are viewed by society as a whole? How often are men seen as potential creeps or who are seen as potential rapists because of the idea that we're all living in a "rape culture" that has women in a constantly perpetuated state of fear because men are bad and should never be left alone with women or children?

I would love to see the justification behind these courts' decisions, because there are studies that show that it's actually single fathers that make better parents.

If the men are the ones that keep having to run around gathering money to pay for the kid's clothes and food mommy's new boyfriend's Jack Daniels while only being able to see the kids once every other weekend, they're not going to be too keen on seeing the mother win custody. This might come as a shock to you, but many men love and want to spend lots of time with their children, yet courts never seem to take that into account with their decision making.

If it hurts men, it's not a patriarchy. No, feminists do NOT get to have a monopoly on all social justice issues, ever. It's disingenuous and it looks very much to be in the same thread as religion claiming to be the end-all morality in everything.

There's no irony in wanting a wife that fulfills a traditional role and yet still balking at the idea of not being able to see your kids while still having to pay for them. You get that, right? Just because men want traditional roles, that doesn't mean that they're going to think that it's okay to have mommy divorce them, collect a check from him every month, and never be able to see his kids. In fact, working women are still likely to get more custody despite not fulfilling a traditional role. But that's feminism for you: Keeping the traditional old systems that benefit women and toss out the ones that burden women with obligations.

Feminism shouldn't feel threatened by MRAs if they really do believe in men's rights. The rub is, that the existence of the movement threatens their monopoly on the direction of the debate on gender politics in this country, so they start saying things like, "Patriarchy hurts men, too!!!!" Even though it goes against the idea of it being a patriarchy if it hurts men. They'll also say things like, "What about teh menz?!?! You're just like a white rights advocate. SEXISM!!!!!" Even though this will come from the same people that say that they care about men's issues as well.

Nah, the men are tired of feminists putting them on the back burner.

What feminist organizations are advocating for men's help? I haven't seen any myself. This is an honest question, because I have not seen it, and seeing how often men are turned away from spousal abuse shelters because they're men is something that gives rise to my question.

You had a very well-worded response, but it still doesn't really hold water to me.

 

[zerozero]

What feminist organizations are advocating for men's help?

an example is that the recent expansion of the official definition of rape to include men wasn't an MRA thing

Sara Reedy, the rape victim accused of lying and jailed by US police, wins $1.5m payout | World news | The Observer

Reedy's victory has gone down in legal history. During her battle she testified in Congress, and this helped persuade the federal government this year to change the definition of rape to include forced oral sex and the rape of men.

 

[HoustonHeat]

Do you have anything that we could read or watch?

Eldridge Cleaver was a self-admitted rapist but a leader of the BPM.

First time I read Combahee River Collective
The Combahee River Collective Statement

Audre Lorde, bell hooks, Angela Davis all wrote pieces about sexism in the Black Power movement, or as a result of BPM.

Funny thing is, when I was in undergrad and was part of an activist group for students of color, our staff advisor was an older Black woman in her late 50s who was really big about the women of the group not critiquing the black men of the group if they said something racist,sexist or incorrect. "It is bad enough that White America emasculates our men, we can't do it too".

If our org called out some white sorority for putting on a black face party, and one of the sorority girls started crying, our dudes would scramble to grab the mic and make the sorority girls feel better.

Many (not all) of these men join some of these activist or black student group circles because often, they are glorified for being one of the few male participants at a time when few show concern, usually like to hear themselves talk, and rarely put in planning labor but always show up just in time to be seen, heard, and then bounce before clean up.

 

[Yuzo Lightheart]

Nobody denies that men are disadvantaged in several areas; divorce settlements, being seen as expendable, lower life expectancies, no advocacy for male rape victims, drafting for military inequality etc etc. But i have never seen even a decent MRA site or board, and I've looked. shyt just reads like TLR/JBO.

you love these hoes

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

an example is that the recent expansion of the official definition of rape to include men wasn't an MRA thing

Sara Reedy, the rape victim accused of lying and jailed by US police, wins $1.5m payout | World news | The Observer

This anecdotal story doesn't really go against what MRAs are fighting for...

Also the rape definition doesn't really cover envelopment, which is how women can do it to men. It may include men, but it includes my by coincidence. Not by actual acknowledgment in policy.

Now about the other points I made? Will you address them?

 

[zerozero]

This anecdotal story doesn't really go against what MRAs are fighting for...

Also the rape definition doesn't really cover envelopment, which is how women can do it to men. It may include men, but it includes my by coincidence. Not by actual acknowledgment in policy.

Now about the other points I made? Will you address them?

wha--? I explained how feminists expanded the definition of rape. It's not an "anecdotal story", it was a decades long fight. It included men by including oral and anal penetration. If your argument is that the definition needs to be expanded further, that's one thing. But MRAs didn't do this. Literally it was fought for by organizations like the Women's Law Project, and to include men:

The new definition will define rape as, “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” The current definition only counts rape when it is vaginal-penile penetration by force, thereby excluding rape of men and penetration of other orifices with objects or other body parts.

“This change is about properly measuring the extent of rape in America. We now need to direct our attention to preventing rape and aggressively pursuing sexual predators, said Carol Tracy, Executive Director of the Women’s Law Project.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

wha--? I explained how feminists expanded the definition of rape. It's not an "anecdotal story", it was a decades long fight. It included men by including oral and anal penetration. If your argument is that the definition needs to be expanded further, that's one thing. But MRAs didn't do this. Literally it was fought for by organizations like the Women's Law Project, and to include men:

I was talking about the woman who was accused by police of lying about her rape case.

 

[The Real]

How is it not a microcosm on how men are viewed by society as a whole? How often are men seen as potential creeps or who are seen as potential rapists because of the idea that we're all living in a "rape culture" that has women in a constantly perpetuated state of fear because men are bad and should never be left alone with women or children?

It's not a microcosm of how men are treated on the whole. Currently, the power relations between men and women still mostly favor men. Look at the sociological indicators. There are very few places where women are equal to men, and even fewer where they are doing better.

Most of the money, most of the positions of political power, and other positions of control are still mostly male. The idea that (straight) men are some deeply oppressed group doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.

As for "rape culture," it's a very legitimate concern. We live in a society where 1 in 3 women will be a sexual assault victim at least once in her life. That's an astronomical percentage and the number of men who experience the same simply can't compare. If you don't think a culture in which 1/3 of all women will be sexually assaulted is a rape culture, then I'm sorry, but your standards for what a rape culture looks like must be absurd. Of course that kind of statistic affects the way women live, and it does create more fear in their lives than we as men have to deal with as far as rape is concerned.

I would love to see the justification behind these courts' decisions, because there are studies that show that it's actually single fathers that make better parents.

Ok. Can you post some of them?

If the men are the ones that keep having to run around gathering money to pay for the kid's clothes and food mommy's new boyfriend's Jack Daniels while only being able to see the kids once every other weekend, they're not going to be too keen on seeing the mother win custody. This might come as a shock to you, but many men love and want to spend lots of time with their children, yet courts never seem to take that into account with their decision making.

Your scenario is pretty absurd. The vast majority of divorces do not conform to what you've described, so while the situation you describe may be unfair, it is not a valid way to look at the issue as a whole.

If it hurts men, it's not a patriarchy. No, feminists do NOT get to have a monopoly on all social justice issues, ever. It's disingenuous and it looks very much to be in the same thread as religion claiming to be the end-all morality in everything.

Patriarchy can hurt men. Men sometimes don't realize that. Men not being able to have custody of their kids because of stereotypes that women are the ones who should be staying home and caring for kids hurts men, but men were the ones who came up with that stereotype in the first place, and ultimately, that stereotype does more harm to women than it does to men by limiting women's options outside the home and far beyond the realm of child issues. It's the same way that white supremacy sometimes causes inadvertent harm to white people. That doesn't mean it's not still white supremacy, though, since it still issues from and ultimately privileges white people.

Feminists don't want a monopoly on all social issues. I don't know where you're getting that from.

There's no irony in wanting a wife that fulfills a traditional role and yet still balking at the idea of not being able to see your kids while still having to pay for them. You get that, right? Just because men want traditional roles, that doesn't mean that they're going to think that it's okay to have mommy divorce them, collect a check from him every month, and never be able to see his kids. In fact, working women are still likely to get more custody despite not fulfilling a traditional role. But that's feminism for you: Keeping the traditional old systems that benefit women and toss out the ones that burden women with obligations.

If that's the kind of woman you want, that's on you.

Also, I notice that you seem to be avoiding the issue of men being deadbeat dads or running out on or abusing women completely. I already admitted it was unfair that women get custody in cases when they are not proper caregivers. You have to be able to admit that in many cases, men deserve to be divorced and don't deserve custody.

Feminism shouldn't feel threatened by MRAs if they really do believe in men's rights. The rub is, that the existence of the movement threatens their monopoly on the direction of the debate on gender politics in this country, so they start saying things like, "Patriarchy hurts men, too!!!!" Even though it goes against the idea of it being a patriarchy if it hurts men. They'll also say things like, "What about teh menz?!?! You're just like a white rights advocate. SEXISM!!!!!" Even though this will come from the same people that say that they care about men's issues as well.

Nah, the men are tired of feminists putting them on the back burner.

Feminism is primarily a movement about women's equality. Men's issues are obviously not going to be of the same priority within a feminist movement. That's like white people complaining that Black power and civil rights groups were putting them on the back burner. It doesn't really make sense.

What feminist organizations are advocating for men's help? I haven't seen any myself. This is an honest question, because I have not seen it, and seeing how often men are turned away from spousal abuse shelters because they're men is something that gives rise to my question.

Zerozero gave you some great examples. Here are some more, from a link where a feminist group has compiled a list of men's issues written about and worked on by feminists: [In Brief] Do Feminists Care About Men’s Issues? (A handy list!) | Brute Reason

Sexual assault of men in the military: Sexual assault of men in the military

Man being treated unfairly in justice system after killing his rapist: PA to execute man who killed his sexual abuser

"Man Up Now” dietary supplement is bad for men’s health: Narrowly-defined masculinity is bad for your health

Men don’t deserve the word “creep”:» Men Who Don’t Deserve the Word “Creep”

Redefining masculinity for the HIV/AIDS fight in southern Africa: » Redefining masculinity for the HIV/AIDS fight in southern Africa

Why circumcision is a feminist issue: http://ecochildsplay.com/2011/07/07/why-circumcision-is-a-feminist-issue/

For Obama, if you’re male and near a terrorist, that makes you guilty: For Obama, if you’re male and near a terrorist, that makes you guilty. So die. | Alas, a Blog

California’s “Alternative Custody Program” Is Sexist Against Men: California’s “Alternative Custody Program” Is Sexist Against Men | Alas, a Blog

The National Organization for Women’s 40 year old position on the draft:
1971 National Conference Policy: Women and War and 1980 National Board Policy: Opposition to Draft and Registration

Father’s rights case: Supreme Court To Hear Discrimination Against Fathers Case | Alas, a Blog

Police murders of men of color are a feminist issue: Police murders of men of color are a feminist issue | Alas, a Blog

@Type Username Here, you might be interested in this list since I mentioned the point about feminists working on men's issues but didn't post links then.

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

you love these hoes

I love people.

 

[Type Username Here]

It's not a microcosm of how men are treated on the whole. Currently, the power relations between men and women still mostly favor men. Look at the sociological indicators. There are very few places where women are equal to men, and even fewer where they are doing better.

Most of the money, most of the positions of political power, and other positions of control are still mostly male. The idea that (straight) men are some deeply oppressed group doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.

As for "rape culture," it's a very legitimate concern. We live in a society where 1 in 3 women will be a sexual assault victim at least once in her life. That's an astronomical percentage and the number of men who experience the same simply can't compare. If you don't think a culture in which 1/3 of all women will be sexually assaulted is a rape culture, then I'm sorry, but your standards for what a rape culture looks like must be absurd. Of course that kind of statistic affects the way women live, and it does create more fear in their lives than we as men have to deal with as far as rape is concerned.




Ok. Can you post some of them?



Your scenario is pretty absurd. The vast majority of divorces do not conform to what you've described, so while the situation you describe may be unfair, it is not a valid way to look at the issue as a whole.



Patriarchy can hurt men. Men sometimes don't realize that. Men not being able to have custody of their kids because of stereotypes that women are the ones who should be staying home and caring for kids hurts men, but men were the ones who came up with that stereotype in the first place, and ultimately, that stereotype does more harm to women than it does to men by limiting women's options outside the home and far beyond the realm of child issues. It's the same way that white supremacy sometimes causes inadvertent harm to white people. That doesn't mean it's not still white supremacy, though, since it still issues from and ultimately privileges white people.

Feminists don't want a monopoly on all social issues. I don't know where you're getting that from.



If that's the kind of woman you want, that's on you.

Also, I notice that you seem to be avoiding the issue of men being deadbeat dads or running out on or abusing women completely. I already admitted it was unfair that women get custody in cases when they are not proper caregivers. You have to be able to admit that in many cases, men deserve to be divorced and don't deserve custody.





Feminism is primarily a movement about women's equality. Men's issues are obviously not going to be of the same priority within a feminist movement. That's like white people complaining that Black power and civil rights groups were putting them on the back burner. It doesn't really make sense.



Zerozero gave you some great examples. Here are some more, from a link where a feminist group has compiled a list of men's issues written about and worked on by feminists: [In Brief] Do Feminists Care About Men’s Issues? (A handy list!) | Brute Reason

Sexual assault of men in the military: Sexual assault of men in the military

Man being treated unfairly in justice system after killing his rapist: PA to execute man who killed his sexual abuser

"Man Up Now” dietary supplement is bad for men’s health: Narrowly-defined masculinity is bad for your health

Men don’t deserve the word “creep”:» Men Who Don’t Deserve the Word “Creep”

Redefining masculinity for the HIV/AIDS fight in southern Africa: » Redefining masculinity for the HIV/AIDS fight in southern Africa

Why circumcision is a feminist issue: http://ecochildsplay.com/2011/07/07/why-circumcision-is-a-feminist-issue/

For Obama, if you’re male and near a terrorist, that makes you guilty: For Obama, if you’re male and near a terrorist, that makes you guilty. So die. | Alas, a Blog

California’s “Alternative Custody Program” Is Sexist Against Men: California’s “Alternative Custody Program” Is Sexist Against Men | Alas, a Blog

The National Organization for Women’s 40 year old position on the draft:
1971 National Conference Policy: Women and War and 1980 National Board Policy: Opposition to Draft and Registration

Father’s rights case: Supreme Court To Hear Discrimination Against Fathers Case | Alas, a Blog

Police murders of men of color are a feminist issue: Police murders of men of color are a feminist issue | Alas, a Blog

@Type Username Here, you might be interested in this list since I mentioned the point about feminists working on men's issues but didn't post links then.

Thanks friend. I am interested. You guys opened my eyes to somethings I haven't thought about.

Much appreciation to you.

 

[The Real]

Thanks friend. I am interested. You guys opened my eyes to somethings I haven't thought about.

Much appreciation to you.

No problem, brother. Men of color have a lot of our own issues to deal with (police brutality, imprisonment, disposability, etc) and sometimes these issues are connected to women's issues in interesting ways.

Here's are two articles by men from the Good Man Project (a men's group about men's social issues) about the problems with the Men's Rights Movement. At the bottom, there are links to other articles on the same subject, many of them also written by men and from a male perspective. As men, it's helpful to get insight into these ideas from other men.

Hugo Schwyzer explains how a handful of men are angry for all the wrong reasons

To men's rights activists: Where's the activism?

 

[Food Mane]

I saw a bit of the video and I agree its kinda corny to run up in events trying to block them but I also think this kinda give and take is the normal route of controversial stuff these days.. protests, counter protests, blah blah... so the 'mens' rights advocates' should probably try to engage constructively with the other side rather than retreat into just being angry at these women

I think it's a little more serious than being corny. The stated intent of that "protest" was to prevent a group of people from exercising their right to assemble freely. The hypocrisy is mind blowing.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

It's not a microcosm of how men are treated on the whole. Currently, the power relations between men and women still mostly favor men. Look at the sociological indicators. There are very few places where women are equal to men, and even fewer where they are doing better.

Most of the money, most of the positions of political power, and other positions of control are still mostly male. The idea that (straight) men are some deeply oppressed group doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.

It is a microcosm of men because you're failing to address the fact that women are making up a huge majority of undergraduate students, the real reasons behind the wage gap myth, and the fact that women are less likely for biological reasons to ever to into any of the harder sciences and to strive for business or accounting degrees. There are many things like the women's chambers of commerce and yet there is still this divide. It ain't a coincidence there, and to continuously blame patriarchy is just a lazy excuse for women not making it to the top because of evolutionary psychology. Yes, it is a science.

Here's a little light reading on the wage gap myth!:

Christina Hoff Sommers: Wage Gap Myth Exposed -- By Feminists

PS: Just because women don't have the strength of character to choose different career tracks despite cultural influence, that doesn't mean that the men who did have to suffer for it.

As for "rape culture," it's a very legitimate concern. We live in a society where 1 in 3 women will be a sexual assault victim at least once in her life. That's an astronomical percentage and the number of men who experience the same simply can't compare. If you don't think a culture in which 1/3 of all women will be sexually assaulted is a rape culture, then I'm sorry, but your standards for what a rape culture looks like must be absurd. Of course that kind of statistic affects the way women live, and it does create more fear in their lives than we as men have to deal with as far as rape is concerned.

Rape culture is an alarmist term that is perpetuated by people that are easily fooled by skewed statistics that are meant to scare the population into thinking that all women are at risk for rape at all times. Maybe if you researched what you were talking about a little better you'd be able to realize that the statistics that you cite are total bullshyt. Here's a video that breaks it down, complete with citations:

Your scenario is pretty absurd. The vast majority of divorces do not conform to what you've described, so while the situation you describe may be unfair, it is not a valid way to look at the issue as a whole.

Oh really now? Can you confirm that women don't milk the system like this? What about the fact that women aren't really naturally better parents but still have no problem benefiting from that unfair assumption? Looks like the statistics tell a different story than your post.

61% of all child abuse is committed by biological mothers
25% of all child abuse is committed by natural fathers
Statistical Source: Current DHHS report on nationwide Child Abuse

79.6% of custodial mothers receive a support award
29.9% of custodial fathers receive a support award
46.9% of non-custodial mothers totally default on support
26.9% of non-custodial fathers totally default on support
20.0% of non-custodial mothers pay support at some level
61.0% of non-custodial fathers pay support at some level
66.2% of single custodial mothers work less than full-time
10.2% of single custodial fathers work less than full-time
7.0% of single custodial mothers work more than 44 hours weekly
24.5% of single custodial fathers work more than 44 hours weekly
46.2% of single custodial mothers receive public assistance
20.8% of single custodial fathers receive public assistance
Statistical Source: Technical Analysis Paper No. 42 - U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services - Office of Income Security Policy

90.2% of fathers with joint custody pay all the support due
79.1% of fathers with visitation privileges pay all the support due
44.5% of fathers with no visitation pay all the support due
37.9% of fathers are denied any visitation
66.0% of all support not paid by non-custodial fathers is due to inability to pay
Statistical Source: 1988 Census "Child Support and Alimony: 1989 Series P-60, No. 173 p. 6-7. and U.S. General Accounting Office Report"
GAO/HRD-92-39FS January, 199250% of mothers see no value in the father's continued contact with his children.
--See "Surviving the Breakup" by Joan Berlin Kelly


40% of mothers reported that they had interfered with the father's visitation to punish their ex-spouse.
--See "Frequency of Visitation...." by Stanford Braver, American Journal of Orthopsychiatry

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes --U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census

85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes --Center for Disease Control

80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes --Criminal Justice and Behavior, Vol. 14, p.

403-2671% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes --National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools

70% of juveniles in state operated institutions come from fatherless homes --U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report Sept.,

198885% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home --Fulton County Georgia jail populations & Texas Dept. of Corrections, 1992

Translated, this means that children from a fatherless home are:
5 times more likely to commit suicide
32 times more likely to run away
20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
14 times more likely to commit rape
9 times more likely to drop out of school
10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances
9 times more likely to end up in a state operated institution
20 times more likely to end up in prison

Patriarchy can hurt men. Men sometimes don't realize that. Men not being able to have custody of their kids because of stereotypes that women are the ones who should be staying home and caring for kids hurts men, but men were the ones who came up with that stereotype in the first place, and ultimately, that stereotype does more harm to women than it does to men by limiting women's options outside the home and far beyond the realm of child issues. It's the same way that white supremacy sometimes causes inadvertent harm to white people. That doesn't mean it's not still white supremacy, though, since it still issues from and ultimately privileges white people.

Patriarchy doesn't hurt men because it doesn't exist. Women don't seem to realize that they are the biggest beneficiaries to the society that they live in because all that feminists can see is what they can't have. They want to be in the board room but are shocked when they get run through the gauntlet on the way up the corporate ladder like everyone else. They want to be taken seriously as gamers, but they start whimpering and whining like Anita Sarkeesian when people make fun of them for whining about how mean the gaming community is. Feminists don't realize how protected they are as women, they only notice how they don't get to be the top dog in positions of power. You know, the ones earned by men when they decided to strive for it? Women benefit from the neoteny that evolved in their favor, but get mad when they don't get to reap the rewards for the higher gambles that men take.

Feminists don't want a monopoly on all social issues. I don't know where you're getting that from.

YES THEY fukkING DO. That's why they try to pay lip service to men's issues like in those nonsense articles you posted where feminists paid lip service (notice no political capital ever spent on issues that affect men, specifically and particularly) to them yet avoid actually helping them at all costs.

If that's the kind of woman you want, that's on you.

Never said it was. But hey, if you wanna put words in my mouth, whatever, feminists do that all the time, anyway.

Also, I notice that you seem to be avoiding the issue of men being deadbeat dads or running out on or abusing women completely. I already admitted it was unfair that women get custody in cases when they are not proper caregivers. You have to be able to admit that in many cases, men deserve to be divorced and don't deserve custody.

I didn't address the issue of deadbeat dads, because as you can see from the aforementioned statistics, they're less likely to be deadbeat parents. In addition, no shyt abuse is bad, but it's also a problem that's thoroughly addressed and these men are all stigmatized institutionally and by society. (kinda goes against the patriarchy theory that you keep pushing)

Feminism is primarily a movement about women's equality. Men's issues are obviously not going to be of the same priority within a feminist movement. That's like white people complaining that Black power and civil rights groups were putting them on the back burner. It doesn't really make sense.

So you admit that the men's rights movement is necessary then? If women won't address men's issues, then why do they freak out when men speak out on their needs? Why do they say that men should just rely on the feminists to stick up for them (even though they only do so on meaningless shyt in a nominal way that costs ZERO political capital) Why should I remain silent if I'm unfairly called a creep but other girls get protected from being called a slut? Why would I even want to get married with family law unfairly assuming women will be better caretakers when child abuse and support statistics suggest the complete opposite? Why should I take feminists seriously when they freak out when men try to speak out for themselves?

Zerozero gave you some great examples there. Here are some more, from a link where a feminist group has compiled a list of men's issues written about and worked on by feminists: [In Brief] Do Feminists Care About Men’s Issues? (A handy list!) | Brute Reason

Ah, neat-o! Someone made a list! That lip service should totally mean progress on men's issues and we should totally ignore all the male hatred from all other feminists, ever!

Sexual assault of men in the military: Sexual assault of men in the military

Man being treated unfairly in justice system after killing his rapist: PA to execute man who killed his sexual abuser

"Man Up Now” dietary supplement is bad for men’s health: Narrowly-defined masculinity is bad for your health

Men don’t deserve the word “creep”:» Men Who Don’t Deserve the Word “Creep”

Redefining masculinity for the HIV/AIDS fight in southern Africa: » Redefining masculinity for the HIV/AIDS fight in southern Africa

The aforementioned are still centered on how it will ultimately affect women and no initiatives are being taken. In fact, some organizations were threatened to have their funding pulled if they acknowledged and helped men with the issues that they've faced because you know, the patriarchy favors men too much!

Why circumcision is a feminist issue: http://ecochildsplay.com/2011/07/07/why-circumcision-is-a-feminist-issue/

There are women that say it's NOT a feminist issue: NOW made it a feminist issue when they protested the WHO 1998 initiative to include the male gender in the clause against unnecessary genital alteration.

For Obama, if you’re male and near a terrorist, that makes you guilty: For Obama, if you’re male and near a terrorist, that makes you guilty. So die. | Alas, a Blog

California’s “Alternative Custody Program” Is Sexist Against Men: California’s “Alternative Custody Program” Is Sexist Against Men | Alas, a Blog

Great! More obscure blogs that have tons of people in the same feminist movement that will have opinions counter to it! I guess the the authors of that list are totally in the majority and define the movement's stance on those issues, right? That just totally proves everything! /sarcasm

The National Organization for Women’s 40 year old position on the draft:
1971 National Conference Policy: Women and War and 1980 National Board Policy: Opposition to Draft and Registration

Uh huh, and what have they done on capitol hill or in the supreme court to change any of this? NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. Just more lip service from feminists to hide their hateful ways.

Father’s rights case: Supreme Court To Hear Discrimination Against Fathers Case | Alas, a Blog

Police murders of men of color are a feminist issue: Police murders of men of color are a feminist issue | Alas, a Blog

@Type Username Here, you might be interested in this list since I mentioned the point about feminists working on men's issues but didn't post links then.

Seriously, is this your extremely obscure blog? Because you seem to reference it quite a bit and it seems to have little to no influence on the way that other feminists think.

No, feminism is bullshyt and it's run by greedy women that want the respect that men get without any of the hard work that comes with said work. You even said yourself that it was going to be mostly about women anyway, so why should I support it for my own purposes when they will shun me if I try to speak up on anything?