European vs North American description of the Moors
- Thread starter Deluuxe
- Start date
I can also tell you who were the main Berber group who invaded Southern Europe. I can also explain to you why North Africa is so diverse. Also genetically too.
All you need to do is resume your debate in this thread. Trust me. I will give you an compelling argument.
All you need to do is resume your debate in this thread. Trust me. I will give you an compelling argument.
yea I know, IMO he didn't have to
its quite obvious what the OG Moors looked like & who they were
yea I know, IMO he didn't have to
its quite obvious what the OG Moors looked like & who they were
Yeah but @Van Taak argument about questioning a population randomly changing was a good counter that I feel I can easily explain. I also feel he can challenge me. I thirst for a good debate.
Deluuxe
Deadly Jester
I posted this in another thread, but this is a good video here:
On European Slaves in North Africa:
COLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before. (I personally believe that may be a conservation number still on Cac's part)
When Europeans Were Slaves: Research Suggests White Slavery Was Much More Common Than Previously Believed
Piracy was big at the time and they would raid ships and bring slaves back to North Africa...
here is a caught Riff Berber Pirate dated
Took this from a forum post but it is good:
"First and foremost, the overwhelming issue here is the history of Muslim interaction with North Africa and the history and people involved in that history. Modern Mauretania has a long history and part of it involves a very long war between Arabs and indigenous African berber speaking black Africans. To show the images of the two fellows in Mauretania and not understand the history of Mauretania is to not put things into proper context. The war was called the Char Bouba war and took place AFTER the expulsion of the Moors from Europe. In fact, all throughout the Moorish period in Spain, Arab groups were flowing into North Africa, constantly fighting with various Moorish dynasties and each other. It is the infighting between various Muslim groups that led to the downfall of Moorish Spain, because the infighting allowed the Christians to reorganize and defeat the petty Tarifan kings one by one.
What we are talking about when we say Moor is the indigenous African population from all across North Africa, which had no country boundaries at the time. Morocco did not exist in the time of Moorish Spain. Neither did Algeria, Libya or Tunisia. Morocco was founded by Africans from Southern Morocco, into Senegal and the Sahara, the Almoravids. The name of Morocco being based again on a description of these people as very dark. The Moorish period between AD 700 and 1492 involved many different African people and not just Africans North of the Sahara. The Africans who formed the Almoravid movement were largely indigenous black Africans from the Sahara, Sahel and Senegal river. These people spoke a dialect of the Berber language called Zenaga, which is the basis of the Name Senegal and the Senegal river. It is from these regions that the Almoravid dynasty rose to power. After the Char Bouba war, when many Arabs fought with these Africans for almost a hundred years, the Zenaga language was almost all but obliterated. Again, you cannot understand the modern population of Northern Africa without looking at the history of North Africa to give it context. It should also be noted that the ancient African kingdoms of Ghana and the ancient towns of Tichitt are also found in Southern Mauritania and both predate Islam. These peoples were a significant factor in the trade of gold, spices, leather, camels and other commodities that made the ancient African Muslim empires of Morocco, Algeria, Ghana, Timbuktu, Songhai and others wealthy. The trade caravans of these times were highways of commerce and they too predate the Muslims. But today, these societies and kingdoms are long gone, with modern Ghana being a country far to the South of modern Mauritania. Again, you have to realize that you cannot generalize 1300 years of history from 700 AD to the modern times and not understand how this history has affected the people and cultures of Africa.
What I mean by black is medium to dark brown. Many of the Moors were indeed black and by this I mean extremely dark brown, as the Muslim Armies that invaded Spain included Africans from the Nile Valley all the way to West Africa. It even included dark Arabians. Likewise, I use the term indigenous because the Sahara AND North Africa was ORIGINALLY populated by BLACK Africans. Over time migrations and influence from outside Africa has impacted North Africa and produced the combinations of features you see there today. However, to imply that dark brown Africans are not indigenous to Northern Africa is blatantly incorrect. How and when others came into North Africa is all part of the historic record of interactions between Africa, Europe and the Levant. There is no mystery in this.
Berber is a language, not an ethnic group. The original Berber language derives from populations in East Africa who were black Africans who migrated across the Sahara. The culture of the Berbers derives from the Neolithic inhabitants of the Sahara who were also black Africans. The culture of the Berbers is not isolated from the rest of Africa as much of it derives from Africa outside of the Sahel and North Africa. The connections are too many to name. Indigo cloth originates in West Africa and is what is often worn by the Tuareg. The leather that made Morocco famous often was acquired from leather workers in Kano Nigeria. Steel was acquired from various West African groups who had learned how to create carbon steel long before Europe and also had a large array of steel weapons and instruments they produced with it. Jewelry styles are derived from the Saharan neolithic, which in turn derives from East Africa. The agades cross and other styles of jewelry are worn among a LARGE group of nomadic peoples from West Africa to Ethiopia. The pottery of Northern Africa is again related to the pottery of the Sahara, stretching into East Africa. The music and rhythms of Northern Africa also derive from African traditions elsewhere in Africa. The dress of Northern Africa with the ancient stripped fabrics, robes and slippers are all derived from African traditions, including traditions from ancient Egypt. The castles, kasbahs and fortitifications of Northern Africa are derived from the ancient cultures outside of Northern Africa including Egypt and Sudan. Northern Africa is no island unto itself and there are many traditions and customs that are found in Northwest Africa today which originated elsewhere in Africa.
The main reason for this accumulation was the sweep of Islam, which acquired many of these cultural and traditional techniques as they swept through Africa, converting various people to the cause of Islam. Once they reached the Maghreb, this accumulation of African cultural traditions became a hallmark of the Western most branch of Islam that made its biggest mark on the cultures of Islamic Spain. Another reason for this is the trade relationship that made these kingdoms wealthy, most of which came through trade with inner Africa for salt, gold, steel, spices, leather, camels and other commodities. This trade again gave the Western most branch of Islam its unique character. This is not unique to Africa either as Islam has been impacted by all the cultures it came to dominate from Africa to the Caucasus, to India and Asia. Islam was not a cultural force but a religious one and most of the CULTURAL forces came from the traditions of populations in areas from PRIOR to the arrival of Islam. "
On European Slaves in North Africa:
COLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before. (I personally believe that may be a conservation number still on Cac's part)
When Europeans Were Slaves: Research Suggests White Slavery Was Much More Common Than Previously Believed
Piracy was big at the time and they would raid ships and bring slaves back to North Africa...
here is a caught Riff Berber Pirate dated
Took this from a forum post but it is good:
"First and foremost, the overwhelming issue here is the history of Muslim interaction with North Africa and the history and people involved in that history. Modern Mauretania has a long history and part of it involves a very long war between Arabs and indigenous African berber speaking black Africans. To show the images of the two fellows in Mauretania and not understand the history of Mauretania is to not put things into proper context. The war was called the Char Bouba war and took place AFTER the expulsion of the Moors from Europe. In fact, all throughout the Moorish period in Spain, Arab groups were flowing into North Africa, constantly fighting with various Moorish dynasties and each other. It is the infighting between various Muslim groups that led to the downfall of Moorish Spain, because the infighting allowed the Christians to reorganize and defeat the petty Tarifan kings one by one.
What we are talking about when we say Moor is the indigenous African population from all across North Africa, which had no country boundaries at the time. Morocco did not exist in the time of Moorish Spain. Neither did Algeria, Libya or Tunisia. Morocco was founded by Africans from Southern Morocco, into Senegal and the Sahara, the Almoravids. The name of Morocco being based again on a description of these people as very dark. The Moorish period between AD 700 and 1492 involved many different African people and not just Africans North of the Sahara. The Africans who formed the Almoravid movement were largely indigenous black Africans from the Sahara, Sahel and Senegal river. These people spoke a dialect of the Berber language called Zenaga, which is the basis of the Name Senegal and the Senegal river. It is from these regions that the Almoravid dynasty rose to power. After the Char Bouba war, when many Arabs fought with these Africans for almost a hundred years, the Zenaga language was almost all but obliterated. Again, you cannot understand the modern population of Northern Africa without looking at the history of North Africa to give it context. It should also be noted that the ancient African kingdoms of Ghana and the ancient towns of Tichitt are also found in Southern Mauritania and both predate Islam. These peoples were a significant factor in the trade of gold, spices, leather, camels and other commodities that made the ancient African Muslim empires of Morocco, Algeria, Ghana, Timbuktu, Songhai and others wealthy. The trade caravans of these times were highways of commerce and they too predate the Muslims. But today, these societies and kingdoms are long gone, with modern Ghana being a country far to the South of modern Mauritania. Again, you have to realize that you cannot generalize 1300 years of history from 700 AD to the modern times and not understand how this history has affected the people and cultures of Africa.
What I mean by black is medium to dark brown. Many of the Moors were indeed black and by this I mean extremely dark brown, as the Muslim Armies that invaded Spain included Africans from the Nile Valley all the way to West Africa. It even included dark Arabians. Likewise, I use the term indigenous because the Sahara AND North Africa was ORIGINALLY populated by BLACK Africans. Over time migrations and influence from outside Africa has impacted North Africa and produced the combinations of features you see there today. However, to imply that dark brown Africans are not indigenous to Northern Africa is blatantly incorrect. How and when others came into North Africa is all part of the historic record of interactions between Africa, Europe and the Levant. There is no mystery in this.
Berber is a language, not an ethnic group. The original Berber language derives from populations in East Africa who were black Africans who migrated across the Sahara. The culture of the Berbers derives from the Neolithic inhabitants of the Sahara who were also black Africans. The culture of the Berbers is not isolated from the rest of Africa as much of it derives from Africa outside of the Sahel and North Africa. The connections are too many to name. Indigo cloth originates in West Africa and is what is often worn by the Tuareg. The leather that made Morocco famous often was acquired from leather workers in Kano Nigeria. Steel was acquired from various West African groups who had learned how to create carbon steel long before Europe and also had a large array of steel weapons and instruments they produced with it. Jewelry styles are derived from the Saharan neolithic, which in turn derives from East Africa. The agades cross and other styles of jewelry are worn among a LARGE group of nomadic peoples from West Africa to Ethiopia. The pottery of Northern Africa is again related to the pottery of the Sahara, stretching into East Africa. The music and rhythms of Northern Africa also derive from African traditions elsewhere in Africa. The dress of Northern Africa with the ancient stripped fabrics, robes and slippers are all derived from African traditions, including traditions from ancient Egypt. The castles, kasbahs and fortitifications of Northern Africa are derived from the ancient cultures outside of Northern Africa including Egypt and Sudan. Northern Africa is no island unto itself and there are many traditions and customs that are found in Northwest Africa today which originated elsewhere in Africa.
The main reason for this accumulation was the sweep of Islam, which acquired many of these cultural and traditional techniques as they swept through Africa, converting various people to the cause of Islam. Once they reached the Maghreb, this accumulation of African cultural traditions became a hallmark of the Western most branch of Islam that made its biggest mark on the cultures of Islamic Spain. Another reason for this is the trade relationship that made these kingdoms wealthy, most of which came through trade with inner Africa for salt, gold, steel, spices, leather, camels and other commodities. This trade again gave the Western most branch of Islam its unique character. This is not unique to Africa either as Islam has been impacted by all the cultures it came to dominate from Africa to the Caucasus, to India and Asia. Islam was not a cultural force but a religious one and most of the CULTURAL forces came from the traditions of populations in areas from PRIOR to the arrival of Islam. "
My claim was that the moors looked something like modern day Mauritania with various shades.
I've already exhausted this topic to be honest but I'm curious to know when the "mixing" happened and with who, a question no coli militant could answer.
Im Kemet Rocky & I like penis
googling gay porn :ahh:
Glad you showed.
My argument is:
- The Moors/Berbers were described as mostly black skinned prior to the 14/15th century.
- Lighter skinned Moors/Berbers came much later.
- Black Berber group were the majority invaders of Southern Europe.
You one to make things interesting and make this a one on one debate in a separate thread? I will try to be a civil as possible.
Breh to be fair I got no time for that. It don't really matter either way all I care about (refer to my 1st post) is that the Moors were MuslimsGlad you showed.
My argument is:
- The Moors/Berbers were described as mostly black skinned prior to the 14/15th century.
- Lighter skinned Moors/Berbers came much later.
- Black Berber group were the majority invaders of Southern Europe.
You one to make things interesting and make this a one on one debate in a separate thread? I will try to be a civil as possible.
If you show me solid proof of the mixing taking place I'll be happy with that.
Breh to be fair I got no time for that. It don't really matter either way all I care about (refer to my 1st post) is that the Moors were Muslims
If you show me solid proof of the mixing taking place I'll be happy with that.
Well you have to keep in mind that the term "Moor" predates Muslims. It was actually used by the Romans to describe blacks. Even in the medieval times the word still was meant to describe blacks of Africa. It wasn't until after the period of the Almoravid's that the word Moor was used to describe Muslim's in general. That's the period where we really start to see non-black Berbers. This is why you have to show me non-black Berbers prior to the 14th/15th century to prove your argument credible about there always being lighter toned Berbers.
As for mixing the irony is that there really wasn't mixing; or its just that people put too much emphasize's on it in discussion like this. What most people do not know is that the area of Northwest Africa(Morocco/Algeria) was sparsely populated during the early period of the Moors. People also forget that converted European Muslims from Europe were expelled and flooded the coastal part of Northern Africa. Remember the term Moor soon meant all Muslim's in general. Non black Moors soon outnumbered the original black Moors.
To give you an example Christian renegades (Spanish, Italian, French, Albanian, etc. who would eventually convert to Islam) and the medieval slave trade had a major impact on places like Tlemcen, Oran, Bejaia (Bougie - Kabyle central) and especially Alger. Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, something like 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European-Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries.
So again it really wasn't mixing but a large population from Europe displacing an already smaller population in an already sparsely populated area. The Berber's were also spread out. Which is also why they were displaced. You have to understand that the original Berbers did not really live on the coastal part of North Africa but in the Sahara and near the Senegal river. They were nomadic people for the most part. The origins of modern day lighter skinned North Africans is not all due to mixing but also European migrates after post-Moorish Iberia who easily displaced a population. Much similar to how Bantu migrates displaced the very small Khoisan population of South Africa.
But...Earlier in this thread I read some post of yours trying to de-credit the mixture of nonsense. You're going to have to explain away why multiple genetic studies show that modern day North Africans are a result of European female in their mtDNA(slavery) and African male in their Y-DNA(slave master). Modern day North African males carry African E-M81 around 80% which shows significant African ancestry mind you:
And then you have their admixture which is 40%+
You're going to have to explain these things.
