Don't you feel its just beyond obvious that an Intelligent Designer created all this?

[Turenne]

again, there are a few different conversations going on in here. some people dont believe there is order in the universe... while some believe there is order but not necessarily a "designer"... and some believe there is both order and a designer. but right now its a clusterfukk so we need to get some clarity... lets start with the definitons.

first and foremost does everyone agree with these definitions, have these three terms been defined accurately?

and if so, are we ALL in agreement that out of these definitions, that 'order' best describes our universe?


cha·os/ˈkāäs/
Noun:
Complete disorder and confusion.
Behavior so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.


or·der/ˈôrdər/
Noun:
The arrangement or disposition of people or things in relation to each other according to a particular sequence, pattern, or method.


ran·dom/ˈrandəm/
Adjective:
Made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision: "a random sample of 100 households".
Governed by or involving equal chances for each item.

This is your argument...? Pull some two sentence worthless definitions out of your ass and ask for us all to agree that 'order best describes the universe'...?

 

[daze23]

harmless question: why do YOU think that order exists?

it's all a matter of perception. a sufficiently complicated system can appear chaotic. it's a question of the number of variables, and our ability to make predictions based on those variables. but at many levels the natural world tends to be nearly infinitely complex. hence things like 'the butterfly effect'

 

[Slang]

it's all a matter of perception. a sufficiently complicated system can appear chaotic. it's a question of the number of variables, and our ability to make predictions based on those variables. but at many levels the natural world tends to be nearly infinitely complex. hence things like 'the butterfly effect'

You do understand it's a garbage theory do you not?

 

[daze23]

You do understand it's a garbage theory do you not?

that what's a garbage theory?

 

[Serious]

that what's a garbage theory?

Let me google that for you

 

[NoMayo15]

harmless question: why do YOU think that order exists?

I should have been more precise in that earlier post. I don't think the universe is wholly ordered ... but I'll go with that for the sake of argument.

I don't know if I can explain what I mean very well, but I'll try.

The only reason order exists (or at least the only confirmed reason why order exists) is the laws of physics are such that it requires that order to be. So, in certain cases, with the current laws that govern our universe, no other outcome is possible. That's not to say human civilization couldn't have gone extinct thousands of years ago, or planets couldn't have collided or anything like that. I think there is a sort of controlled chaos that is governed by physics. Physics is my "god".

 

[GhettoTeK]

...if you can't answer those two questions then you can't state the universe was created in a 'intricate' and 'designed' manner, as you did in the OP...

Someone had to 'design' the 'designer', which means someone had to 'design' the 'designer's designer', which means that someone had to 'design' the 'designer's designer's designer', which means...

If there is a designer who created the universe, he must be some kind of infallible ephemeral matter - as all religions believe - then why create the world in such a flawed confused manner? Why create human beings to be so easily broken and damaged? Why create disease and illness and apply them to random humans? Why give humans innate obsessions with power and materialism that lead to war, massacre and suffering on huge scales? Why 'spread his word' through human beings and have them 'worship' him constantly so they can be rewarded with the perfection that they were not given in the first place? Why would a perfect being need his peons to worship him once a week anyway? Does the dude have self-confidence issues or something? And how do you justify free will and personal responsibility for you and I in a pre-determined universe with a beginning, middle and ending? How can al-Qaeda be blamed for 9/11 or the Nazi's for the holocaust in a world already 'designed' by your infallible entity...?

I could do this all day...because the idea of intelligent design is

 

[Megatron Island]

Euler's formula - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MMS]

everyone tries to make up things for anything they cant explain

you wouldnt say god made your double cheeseburger would you

but technically he did

 

[OsO]

the idea of the universe being organized into systems is not in debate, i dont think.

i think what people are debating is what is the SOURCE of the FORCE that is organizing these systems, and for what purpose (if any).

and imo both sides are being hypocritical. to say "god" designed it, or to say that the "the systems just happen, they have no purpose" are both equally shytty explanations.

and both sides are arguing with such conviction which makes it even worse.

we should be reasoning as a group the NATURE of the FORCE behind these phenomena.

but instead, in typical human form, we are battling instead of cooperating.

 

[OsO]

I should have been more precise in that earlier post. I don't think the universe is wholly ordered ... but I'll go with that for the sake of argument.

I don't know if I can explain what I mean very well, but I'll try.

The only reason order exists (or at least the only confirmed reason why order exists) is the laws of physics are such that it requires that order to be. So, in certain cases, with the current laws that govern our universe, no other outcome is possible. That's not to say human civilization couldn't have gone extinct thousands of years ago, or planets couldn't have collided or anything like that. I think there is a sort of controlled chaos that is governed by physics. Physics is my "god".

so what do you think CAUSED these "laws" of order to form in the manner they did?

honest question

 

[Sensitive Blake Griffin]

so what do you think CAUSED these "laws" of order to form in the manner they did?

because it HAS to, otherwise we wouldn't be here to discuss them. There may be other universes with different laws that failed to produce any life.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

the idea of the universe being organized into systems is not in debate, i dont think.

i think what people are debating is what is the SOURCE of the FORCE that is organizing these systems, and for what purpose (if any).

and imo both sides are being hypocritical. to say "god" designed it, or to say that the "the systems just happen, they have no purpose" are both equally shytty explanations.

and both sides are arguing with such conviction which makes it even worse.

we should be reasoning as a group the NATURE of the FORCE behind these phenomena.

but instead, in typical human form, we are battling instead of cooperating.

This what I been sayin the whole time. NOBODY knows the truth we should all try to learn as much as we can from each other, cause at the end of the day we could all be wrong.

 

[Type Username Here]

If it exists or existed, how would we know it is/was intelligent?

What if it was a superior race of beings from a higher form of existence, and this entire existence we experience here amounts to one of their toddlers finger painting?

 

[NoMayo15]

the idea of the universe being organized into systems is not in debate, i dont think.

i think what people are debating is what is the SOURCE of the FORCE that is organizing these systems, and for what purpose (if any).

and imo both sides are being hypocritical. to say "god" designed it, or to say that the "the systems just happen, they have no purpose" are both equally shytty explanations.

and both sides are arguing with such conviction which makes it even worse.

we should be reasoning as a group the NATURE of the FORCE behind these phenomena.

but instead, in typical human form, we are battling instead of cooperating.

I'm sorry that you think "shyt happens" is a shytty explanation, but until there is strong evidence otherwise, then that's whats most likely true. The force behind the order you see in various systems is the laws of nature. Gravity and physics alone are responsible for the formation and actions of these systems - whether it's an atom, or a planet. What reason is there to think there is something supernatural about it? Because you think it's insufficient?

so what do you think CAUSED these "laws" of order to form in the manner they did?

honest question

The Big Bang.

There's no reason why they formed the way they did, at least not in the way a intelligent design proponent would mean.

This what I been sayin the whole time. NOBODY knows the truth we should all try to learn as much as we can from each other, cause at the end of the day we could all be wrong.

And I also want to add that just because we may not have all the answers, it doesn't give credibility to any alternative hypothesis. We can't "learn from each other" because one side doesn't have any demonstrable evidence for their claims -- only appeals to logical fallacies, and rehashed arguments. One side is trying to solve a mystery WITH a mystery. That's not how KNOWLEDGE works. We use what we already know to explain what we don't know. Otherwise, the supposed explanation doesn't have any explanatory power at all.