Does the large Caribbean presence in NYC's Hip Hop scene explain the disconnect with other regions?

[FruitOfTheVale]

This was being discussed in another thread:

That's exactly the point I made earlier, the roots of Hip Hop culture are not African American.

It didn't take very long for African Americans to dominate the culture but New York's style is heavily Caribbean influenced to this day.

The New York Hip Hop scene never fukked with the Hip Hop scenes in the rest of the country like that unless nikkas made music that sounded exactly like them (i.e. Common, Lupe, Hiero, Cypress Hill, etc). When you compare the music they don't like to each other - UGK, E-40, Do Or Die, etc. - the commonalities stand out:

- Heavier bass lines
- Heavier focus on melody
- Less focus on rapping about rhyme skills, more Bluesy subject matter
- Heavier use of P-Funk elements

This isn't by accident.

You might be on to something. You make a good point. 90's West-coast Hip-Hop and 90's Southern hip-hop always had commonalities through their use of instrumentation and samples. The Bassline being used, is one of those commonalities. Mobb Music, G-Funk, and 90's era Southern Hip-Hop(UGK, Outkast, Geto Boys. etc) all had the same element, and all used a heavy bassline, funky grooves, or in alot of cases, bluesy guitars and instrumentation. That's something that was most def, set apart from the more uptempo origins of hip-hop that came out of NYC 2 decades earlier in the 70's. When I hear songs like "Rescue 911" by Yukmouth and Dru Down, "Practice Looking Hard" by E40 or songs from UGK like "Pocket Full Of Stones", they all have that same soulful instrumentation and authentically Black sound that I don't get from some of the 70' and 80's Eastcoast hip-hop. I think that's why older Eastcoast acts were more palatable by White Backpackers than Westcoast or Southern hip-hop was. Especially in the internet backpack community.

I also agree about subject matter. Westcoast rappers were rapping actual life stories and "reality raps" early on, while most eastcoast artist(outside of a couple of songs like "The Message") were still rapping about how much better they were at rapping than the next rapper.

James Brown samples or Jazz/Soul samples aren't authentically black?

I disagree with that generalization of east coast subject matter...but I agree that generally speaking "reality" rappers rarely rapped about their prowess on the mic.

Of course he is. At the same time, he was also pop music... Hip hop didn't fully delve into the depths of black music until it went nationwide. And even within New York, it was black producers from outside of the Bronx like DJ Premier (from Houston) and RZA (from North Carolina) that pushed New York in a more soulful direction. One notable exception to this is Pete Rock. He's one of the only Bronx DJs of Caribbean descent that was heavily tapping into black music outside of James Brown and other black pop music back in the late 80s/early 90s.

If by pop you mean "well known" then I agree. If you mean "watered down" then I disagree.
Also, I think that you are seeing connections that aren't necessarily there. I think that Marley and others in the mid to late 80s sampled James Brown so much b/c it was an obvious move. Then the Ultimate Breaks was mined.
But what do I know, maybe there is something to what you are arguing...it's definitely interesting

I agree with FruitVale. The James Brown samples were obvious sampling material for Hip-Hop, which at the time, was still "just" dance music. They'd sample the Amen break, and other popular Black artist breaks, but outside of that, they didn't go deeper into sampling other genres of Black music like the Westcoast and Down South did a decade or two later. It was limited to James Brown and other breaks. But than again, that may be due to hip-hop being so young back in the 70's and 80's, that they didn't know HOW to sample anything else but popular uptemo James Brown breaks, rather than them just having a disinterest in Jazz, Blues, and other Funk acts besides James Brown.

And then it get brought up again with someone referencing my first post:

none of this is true

Explain why literally almost every New York rapper of note is Caribbean. To quote a list posted in this thread:

www.thecoli.com/threads/list-of-rappers-of-caribbean-descent-nicki-minaj-jay-z-50-cent-more.313275/

Spoiler

Biggie (Jamaican parents)
Busta Rhymes (Jamaican parents)
Q-Tip (Father from Anguilla)
Jay-Z (Jamaican father)
Dame Dash (Parents from Barbados)
Shyne (Born in Belize)
Fetty Wap (Half Jamaican/Haitian)
The Fugees (Wyclef and Pras are Haitian)
Slick Rick (Jamaican)
KRS-One (Jamaican)
Guru (Father from Trinidad)
A$AP Rocky (Father from Barbados)
Diddy (His mom is Jamaican)
LL Cool J (Parents from Barbados)
Rakim (Jamaican father)
Eric B. (Jamaican)
Dana Dane (Jamaican)
Foxy Brown (Trini)
Heavy D (Born in Jamaica)
Nicki Minaj (Trinidad)
Lil Kim (Half Jamaican/Trini)
Phife from Tribe Called Quest (Trinidad)
Spliff Star (Jamaican)
Tony Yayo (Haitian)
Fabolous (Dominican father)
Doug E Fresh (Barbados)
Kid from Kid N Play (Jamaican father)
DJ Kool Herc (Founder of hip-hop) is Jamaican
Joey Badass (Jamaican)
Afrika Bambataa (Jamaican)
Safafree(Trinidad)
Jim Jones (Aruba)
MF Doom (Trini)
OC (Dominican)
AZ (Dominican)
JR Writer (Dominican)
Capone & Noriega (Haitian & Puerto Rican)
Juelz Santana (Puerto Rican)
Cam'ron (Dominican)
Big Noyd (Puerto Rican)

Not to mention all of the NY Puerto Rican and Cuban rappers.

Explain why almost literally every New York producer of note (Pete Rock, Memphis Bleek, Swizz Beatz, Heatmakerz, Grandmaster Flash, etc.) is Caribbean.

Explain the overwhelming disdain from the New York scene of Hip Hop music from other regions of the country that does not draw from their production and rap style.

I'll wait

this list was called out for being bullshyt a long time ago

Its club culture is turnover from NYC black disco culture
Sonically it derives from funk music

And it doesnt get anymore AA than Funk music

I deleted the bullshyt off of the list and added a few myself. In reality there are far more (Canibus, Styles P, Dray of Das EFX, Big Pun, Joey Bada$$, Bobby Schmurda, etc).

Lets not forget that almost everybody who are given credit for the foundation of Hip Hop are Jamaican.

They sampled black pop and disco because that's what they were hearing on the radio and in the clubs at the time that Hip Hop was being created.

Is it purely an accident or coincidence that the NY/NJ rappers who are most popular outside of New York (Run DMC, Public Enemy, 50 Cent, Nas, Lauryn Hill, Wu Tang Clan, DMX, EPMD, Big Daddy Kane, LL Cool J, Ja Rule, Redman, etc.) are almost all AA?

hip hop was a community created art form. Everything in it came from older American culture

Kool herc will tell you this himself

Rapping and DJing come from older American culture, yes. That's not what's in debate though.

What's in debate is just how big of a Caribbean influence there is on the norms of New York Hip Hop culture and how much does that paint their perception of the Hip Hop scenes in other regions that are not Caribbean-influenced outside of the obvious initial influence of New York.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

@IllmaticDelta @Meh @mobbinfms @K.O.N.Y

 

[Taadow]

I didn't read most of that.

Anyway - Jamaicans are everywhere, that doesn't "disconnect" NYC from other regions. Matta fact, that's one
thing they tend to have in common with other regions.

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

I didn't read most of that.

Anyway - Jamaicans are everywhere, that doesn't "disconnect" NYC from other regions. Matta fact, that's one
thing they tend to have in common with other regions.

To be clear, this is the main question:

What's in debate is just how big of a Caribbean influence there is on the norms of New York Hip Hop culture and how much does that paint their perception of the Hip Hop scenes in other regions that are not Caribbean-influenced outside of the obvious initial influence of New York.

 

[ogc163]

Nah, there is a lot of grey area within the concept of "Caribbean" in NYC. Most of the cats you mentioned probably don't have a lot of interaction with Caribbean culture like that. At some point cats become "Americanized" completely to the point the Caribbean influence is minimal. It should be noted that the South Bronx which is deemed the birthplace of hip-hop has always had a very small Caribbean population/influence, my classmates always talked about going down south growing up...outside of PR's nobody talking about there Caribbean background.

 

[Rev]

Are the people claiming this actually from NY?

@ogc163 BX is full of Ricans, Dominicans and Jamaicans tho

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

Nah, there is a lot of grey area within the concept of "Caribbean" in NYC. Most of the cats you mentioned probably don't have a lot of interaction with Caribbean culture like that. At some point cats become "Americanized" completely to the point the Caribbean influence is minimal. It should be noted that the South Bronx which is deemed the birthplace of hip-hop has always had a very small Caribbean population/influence, my classmates always talked about going down south growing up...outside of PR's nobody talking about there Caribbean background.

Interesting. How did so many Caribbean people become so pivotal in the beginnings of the culture if the South Bronx itself had a very tiny Caribbean presence?

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

Are the people claiming this actually from NY?

@ogc163 BX is full of Ricans, Dominicans and Jamaicans tho

This is more of a question than anything being posed in large part to New Yorkers, not a full-formed claim or statement.

 

[jamalg]

 

[Taadow]

To be clear, this is the main question:

Okay.

This is what it seems like to me, but I ain't from there so take it with a grain of salt.

It doesn't appear to me that the NYC Carribean influence is what shapes their view of other regions.

I think it's more so of the fact that people from NYC are not like people from anywhere else.
When you're from there or live there you are a New Yorker first, and everything else comes after.

How that shows itself in hip-hop is, NYC rap is about NYC and how NYC gets down.
They were runnin' the chit because for most of hip-hop history, it was the epicenter in every sense:
that's where it started, that's where the business of it began, and that's where the media covered it.
However, most hip-hop fans in the country (and or world) are not living like they do in NYC.
So when other regions started doing it, it was not (for lack of a better designation) NYC chit.
And there are more people that have that non-NYC life in common than not.

 

[Tetris v2.0]

The Caribbean influence has been Toronto's main draw forever. You even see Drake trying to use the slang

That influence was always present in older NY rap. Just seems like there's no new sounds coming from the NY youth

 

[ogc163]

Are the people claiming this actually from NY?

@ogc163 BX is full of Ricans, Dominicans and Jamaicans tho

The north BX is filled with Jamaicans, they have never been prevalent in the South BX. And Dominicans were scattered around the SBX but are now getting deep.

 

[Rev]

Interesting. How did so many Caribbean people become so pivotal in the beginnings of the culture if the South Bronx itself had a very tiny Caribbean presence?

Because that is false.

 

[Retired Account]

I don't think the disconnect is because that. If it was then ny hip hop would sound more like dancehall, grime, toronto

I didn't read most of that.
Anyway - Jamaicans are everywhere, that doesn't "disconnect" NYC from other regions. Matta fact, that's one
thing they tend to have in common with other regions.

Outside of the tri state and Florida, Jamaicans barely exist.

 

[Anerdyblackguy]

It's just part of the culture up here in NY. When we listen to biggie ( Jamaican), Busta rhymes ( Jamaican), KRS-one ( Jamaican), Pete Rock his style is legendary ( Jamaican) you just accept and adapt.


Also the Carribbean influence is bigger in the Bronx than what is being stated in this thread.

 

[HoldThisL]

Calling bullshyt on this list. Where are the sources