Does Marvin hagler lose points for never leaving middleweight

[mr x]

to be clear, I am a big fan of guys who compete in different weight classes. I always think if I were in this person's shoes and I was a fighter thats what I would be doing. I would be snatching titles, no matter who holds them but thats not for a lot of fighters especially with the advice they get from their handlers. some guys dont want to fight a weak titleholder because they may not motivate them for whatever reason, be it not challenging enough, not enough $$$, etc...at the same time I can clearly see why Hagler didnt move up or down. actually, I thought Hagler was nuts for fighting guys like Mugabi but thats what made him special. its funny we praise fighters for cleaning out divisions but on the flip side we knock them for not moving up or down and then vise-versa.

This.

 

[Cel 510 kid ados forever]

Nah

Hagler still one of the 3 greatest middleweights ever


Destruct and destroy fought every one and brought the fight to every one.

He never wanted to move up which is fine

He was built for that weight

 

[R=G]

Why move up when you have like a decade long title run going on? Lol

 

[Bigblackted4]

At that time 168 wasn’t what it was in the 90s made no sense for him to try and fight at light heavyweight when he was only slightly bigger than Errol Spence.

 

[The Fukin Prophecy]

No, it’s not either up or nothing. Uncommon but very doable. Off top I think I remember Thurman, Kid Chocolate
and Gamboa doing it. I know B-Hop did it, and a few others back when.

Moving down was not common or very doable at all during Haglers era and before him...Dropping that kind of weight became more doable decades after Hagler retired with advancements in medical science and training...Those fighters you named did it 20+ years after Hagler retired and some of those guys only dropped 7 or 8 pounds...Only one of them is an ATG and if my memory serves me correct, he dropped from a weight he ballooned up to for a few fights...B-Hop did not drop from his natural weight of 160...In fact, he refused to give up a single pound to DLH...

Dropping 13 pounds from his natural weight for a fighter in his 30's was unheard of in Haglers era...Never mind the fact back then the MW division was still more prestigious than the lower weights...

If I'm wrong, by all mean please name me an ATG from a prestigious division in Haglers era that moved down 10+ pounds from his natural weight to fight a little nikka...

To further add to this, we all know dropping that kind of weight is not healthy and could end careers...If you don't believe me, ask Roy Jones how ballooning up to HW and back down to LHW worked out for him...

 

[patscorpio]

B-Hop did not drop from his natural weight of 160...In fact, he refused to give up a single pound to DLH...

bhop didnt debut as a middle...he debuted as a cruiser and gradually went down to middle...bhop was disciplined as hell when he did get a hold of the 160 belts but i dont think 160 was his natural weight

 

[The Fukin Prophecy]

bhop didnt debut as a middle...he debuted as a cruiser and gradually went down to middle...bhop was disciplined as hell when he did get a hold of the 160 belts but i dont think 160 was his natural weight

He was MW for 13 years including the prime of his career...

And he spent what? 2 years at CW? Clearly CW was not his natural and he had weight to drop which is perfectly normal for a guy starting out, especially for a guy who started boxing in prison...That is completely different from Haglers situation...Asking an established ATG in his prime or a little past it to drop weight is not normal...

We're comparing apples to oranges here...

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

Moving down was not common or very doable at all during Haglers era and before him...Dropping that kind of weight became more doable decades after Hagler retired with advancements in medical science and training...Those fighters you named did it 20+ years after Hagler retired and some of those guys only dropped 7 or 8 pounds...Only one of them is an ATG and if my memory serves me correct, he dropped from a weight he ballooned up to for a few fights...B-Hop did not drop from his natural weight of 160...In fact, he refused to give up a single pound to DLH...

Dropping 13 pounds from his natural weight for a fighter in his 30's was unheard of in Haglers era...Never mind the fact back then the MW division was still more prestigious than the lower weights...

If I'm wrong, by all mean please name me an ATG from a prestigious division in Haglers era that moved down 10+ pounds from his natural weight to fight a little nikka...

To further add to this, we all know dropping that kind of weight is not healthy and could end careers...If you don't believe me, ask Roy Jones how ballooning up to HW and back down to LHW worked out for him...

I hear all of this loud and clear. My opinion doesn’t change. He loses points IMO because he stayed at middle.

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

some fighters def do that..depending on competition AND/OR to increase a physical advantage they may have

Indeed.
Peace!

My thing is this. We cannot scan every non-heavyweight fighter’s career and nitpick it to see if he fought and WON at different weight classes, and hold Hagler exempt because we really appreciate and respect him. If this was anyone else, most likely he’d be scrutinized (maybe unfairly) and under appreciated. Different narratives for different fighters, especially the Fab 4 of Marv, Leonard, Panama, and Hit Man. And I think it’s unfair. The other 3 besides Marvin will be held in a higher regard IMO. However, that doesn’t negate Marv’s achievements and skill, nor does it make them better fighters than him. I’m just saying, throughout history, the resumes of all Great/ GOAT non-HW fighters criteria was on how many weight classes they fought or won at. Unfair or not, thats the culture of boxing. But of course you know this already

 

[patscorpio]

Indeed.
Peace!

My thing is this. We cannot scan every non-heavyweight fighter’s career and nitpick it to see if he fought and WON at different weight classes, and hold Hagler exempt because we really appreciate and respect him. If this was anyone else, most likely he’d be scrutinized (maybe unfairly) and under appreciated. Different narratives for different fighters, especially the Fab 4 of Marv, Leonard, Panama, and Hit Man. And I think it’s unfair. The other 3 besides Marvin will be held in a higher regard IMO. However, that doesn’t negate Marv’s achievements and skill, nor does it make them better fighters than him. I’m just saying, throughout history, the resumes of all Great/ GOAT non-HW fighters criteria was on how many weight classes they fought or won at. Unfair or not, thats the culture of boxing. But of course you know this already

Peace!!!

the bolded all you have to do is look at GGG posts from certain people lol

Personally I do not hold it against Hagler that he did not move up... Hagler ruled the middleweights, he wasnt p*ssyfooting around, he defended his belts regularly, and he was a great fighter...I cant take that away from him

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

Peace!!!

the bolded all you have to do is look at GGG posts from certain people lol

Personally I do not hold it against Hagler that he did not move up... Hagler ruled the middleweights, he wasnt p*ssyfooting around, he defended his belts regularly, and he was a great fighter...I cant take that away from him

Nah, I remember those GGG posts were crazy! Some fighters are meant to stay at one weight and GGG definitely fits the mold...











especially when it came to SOG

 

[surv2syn]

He was MW for 13 years including the prime of his career...

And he spent what? 2 years at CW? Clearly CW was not his natural and he had weight to drop which is perfectly normal for a guy starting out, especially for a guy who started boxing in prison...That is completely different from Haglers situation...Asking an established ATG in his prime or a little past it to drop weight is not normal...

We're comparing apples to oranges here...

I agree with you here. I think it was Emmanuel Steward, but couldve been someone else who said, your NATURAL weight is the LOWEST weight you can make and still feel comfortable. Bernard mostly weighed in under 160 and at 156 for DLH and felt perfectly fine because of his discipline. Not a stretch to say B-Hop couldve made 154 and still been comfortable but obviously in his mind, 160 was his sweet spot.

also as far as moving up, Hagler moving up to LHW is the same as asking a super-feather to jump to WW. not saying it cant be done, but would have to be right timing and opponent. if Hagler wouldve went up he wouldve gained points, but because he didnt doesnt mean he should lose points.

 

[surv2syn]

Indeed.
Peace!

My thing is this. We cannot scan every non-heavyweight fighter’s career and nitpick it to see if he fought and WON at different weight classes, and hold Hagler exempt because we really appreciate and respect him. If this was anyone else, most likely he’d be scrutinized (maybe unfairly) and under appreciated. Different narratives for different fighters, especially the Fab 4 of Marv, Leonard, Panama, and Hit Man. And I think it’s unfair. The other 3 besides Marvin will be held in a higher regard IMO. However, that doesn’t negate Marv’s achievements and skill, nor does it make them better fighters than him. I’m just saying, throughout history, the resumes of all Great/ GOAT non-HW fighters criteria was on how many weight classes they fought or won at. Unfair or not, thats the culture of boxing. But of course you know this already

dapped, but lets look at this a different way for a moment. the consensus will judge fighters based on who they defeated. the weight they did it at is just plus/minus. out of the 4 you named, Hearns greatness is determined by how many titles he won in different classes. Duran is known for being a great LW (gets extra credit for beating SRL at WW), SLR is known for his great wins mostly at WW and gets extra credit for the Hagler win. SRL is always going to be considered better than the other 3 because he beat them all and he did something the other two couldnt do and thats beat Hagler. most casuals arent really cognizant that SRL beat Hagler at MW or on the flip side, couldve assumed all 4 of those guys were weight contemporaries which they were not. I grew up in that time and Hagler was Mount Everest to 147-154 pounders.

 

[The Fukin Prophecy]

I hear all of this loud and clear. My opinion doesn’t change. He loses points IMO because he stayed at middle.

Just to be clear, the only thing I am disagreeing with here is the notion that he could have and should have moved DOWN...

If you got no competition in your division, the expectation for a fighter who wants to be great has always been to move UP...

So criticism of Hagler not not moving UP is fair IMO...

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

Just to be clear, the only thing I am disagreeing with here is the notion that he could have and should have moved DOWN...

If you got no competition in your division, the expectation for a fighter who wants to be great has always been to move UP...

So criticism of Hagler not not moving UP is fair IMO...

No doubt, agreed. And honestly I don’t fully agree with unwritten rule of a fighter has to fight at different weights to define their greatness, but since it seems to be the consensus amongst boxing historians and fans, my hand is forced and I cannot prepare or formulate and argument that’ll sway most. Regardless, like I said, my stance on Hagler doesn’t mean other fighters were better.